How long has man been created.

[mpok1519]

It's easy to use an example of things that are obvious fantasy, but that doesn't mean everything anyone ever said was a myth is in actuality a myth. Do you think demons are a myth? Is Satan real?

Care to find me some evidence that these things ar realand not myth? no? Then they will remain myths.

satan is real, when i mean, people are evil. Satan is just the evilness of people.

That's not what was said. "You are being very closed minded to the idea that you might be closed minded." That's what was said. Being closed-minded to being closed-minded is a paradox, because in doing so one would still be closed-minded. Not being open to any and all possibilities is being closed-minded. The disadvantage is that new truths cannot enter unless they appear like the old truths which are accepted. It's easier to close the door and only deal with what is already know, but the bigger picture is completely lost. Being open to every possibility is much more work to separate fact from fiction, but it allows for all the evidence and all the interpretations of the evidence so that the truth can speak for itself.

new truths? Im sorry, but truth isnt old, or new, its just truth. Peoples' perception of truth changes, but the truth and facts are always the same.

How can creationism be said to follow the laws of the universe when it is the theological history of how God established the laws of the universe? Science is held by the limits of the universe, creationism looks outside of those limits, and beyond them.

but creationism in that sense doesn't even exist bro. Its just fantays fairy tale land to trick kids into obedience.

tell anyone theres a monster ready under your bed (or hell) to eat and torture you if you're not good s a good way to manipulate kids into eating their broccolli.

 

[JediMobius]

Care to find me some evidence that these things ar realand not myth? no? Then they will remain myths.

satan is real, when i mean, people are evil. Satan is just the evilness of people.

Then you don't believe what the bible says. Satan is a fallen angel, an actual being who will be thrown in the lak of fire with the beast and the false prophet of revelation. Satan is not the evilness of people, evil is. It's just evil, Satan isn't a mere personification, or a myth. (Well, the red guy with the horns is.)

new truths? Im sorry, but truth isnt old, or new, its just truth. Peoples' perception of truth changes, but the truth and facts are always the same.

It's the perception I'm talking about. The old truths are the ones you've accepted, the new ones are the ones you haven't learned yet. (I'm using 'you' colloquially to mean anyone.)

but creationism in that sense doesn't even exist bro. Its just fantays fairy tale land to trick kids into obedience.

tell anyone theres a monster ready under your bed (or hell) to eat and torture you if you're not good s a good way to manipulate kids into eating their broccolli.

Yeah, I don't even see how that works the way you claim it does. I don't have kids, and if I do some day, I won't be tricking them. No one can be scared into faith in God, only God chooses who He reveals himself to. The claims you're making are completely biased, unfair, and grounded in prejudice more than actual fact. You're appealing to emotion rather than reason in your arguments, and so, we're not getting anywhere in this discussion.

 

[GenemZ]

satan is real, when i mean, people are evil. Satan is just the evilness of people.

Are you saying then, that God is the goodness of people?




.

 

[fwwid]

Hahaha, what happened to this thread?

 

[GenemZ]

 

[An Arch Angel]

That's a curious statement. Do you really think God created death and 'saw that it was good?' God disproves of nothing? What about sin?



Death is separation from God. God is life. . . You really need to give us more than "there is no death."



Free will was not a result of the knowledge of good and evil, the eating of that fruit was a result of free will. If man was ever in a robot-like existence, then there could not be an initial choice. Robot's are computers. Computers do what they're told. How do you know Satan wasn't surprised? It seems to me that Satan is the stereotypical Bond villain - he really thinks he's going to win each time. Drat, foiled again.

That fall from grace was not the awakening of man, but the slumber of man. We are only awakened in Christ.

There is a lot here and I shortened it quite a bit.

Sin:

When you are total love you judge nothing. God knows the limitations of the flesh, he knows why you did what you did. There is no sin, there is only you being …well …you. You are exactly as he created you. No more or no less. When you die you will understand the flesh as he does.

You will not condemn “sinners” in the flesh, you will only welcome them into the kingdom of heaven.




No Death of You:

The number one question, and is not for this thread, is
“How do you define you”? You are a piece that surpasses all understanding, that is to say, we are “more” than anyone thinks.

God created Death of the flesh. This is done for a couple of reasons.

1) We need to experience what it is like to “go without” before we enter his house. Remember that experience leads to understanding -> compassion -> love -> No judgments

2) God is not “all power”, yes he knows the location of every hair on your head, this is because there is a fixed number of them. The universe is a constant state of change (evolving) and God knows the state of every particle at any given moment. Your life is “burned” onto the very fabric of space and remains there until the universe ends. You “die” when there is nothing left.

You are forever in the mind of God.

3) Life seems to be based on simple things built together to make things “more” than the pieces that make them up. We will evolve into the next life. We will be more than the pieces that make us up, we will be more than our experiences, and we will exist in a different state.

Free will,

Before the apple was offered, god told them not to eat of the tree. They had no choice, they did not eat from it. The devil came and offered them a choice between eating and not eating. At that moment they had a choice.

There is no “fall” of man. This is an illusion based on “guilt”. Adam and eve can not except that they chose not to listen to god. They judged themselves lesser than how god created them. They in affect judged God’s created different than God. They, in effect, judged there understanding to be more than gods. And we know this is impossible.

One proof that the bible is man made are the notions that nakedness is shameful. Look around at all the other creations of god; their outer layers are god given. The fall of man was the birth of ego. To much to go into here so I will stop.

You will have much to say about this thread.

 

[Blue sapphire]

Titus 3:10​

"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with him."​

I guess that's not love to you on how to treat another in such a situation. It must not be in the Bible?


Yes genz.....there is a time and place for all things written in the Bible....however it takes wisdom motivated by love to know when to apply these words.

There are moderators....and sure you can do it as well.....

However....i am fond of this saying...heard once in a pastors sermon, "people don't care how much you know....until they know how much you care"

Matthew 10:12-15​

"As you enter the house, give it your greeting. ​

"If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. ​

But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. ​

"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words,
as you go out of that house or that city, shake the ​

dust off your feet. ​

"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land ​

of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than ​

for that city."​

Are you capable of that? Could you follow that command? Or, do you always follow the golden rule in everything?


Again there is a time and place for all things.......it is just that i would choose a different course of action on an internet forum such as this.



In Christ, GeneZ

.

 

[An Arch Angel]

LowlyTortous,


I read chapter 3 in revelations.

I do not take much stock in revelations because it probably was thrown in there because they had to put something in with the apocalyptic style of writing since, in Jesus' time, it was a common style used. It was also probably coded to keep it from the roman’


The opposite of this “neutral” would be a zealot. If you believe that the bible is literal then this passage forces you to take the stance that there is no right or wrong. The writer told them to take a stance, good or bad, but take one.

I could go on here too but I really do not like writing. Lol

 

[GenemZ]

There is a lot here and I shortened it quite a bit.

Sin:

When you are total love you judge nothing.

God is not just total love. He is also total righteousness and justice that makes way for love to be free. Love can not love evil. Evil is the rejection of truth and replaces truth for a lie.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things
that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments
about all things, but he himself is
not subject to any man's judgment."
​

Not subject to 'any man's' judgment? That speaks of not being subject (not being comprehended properly) to anyone who walks according to the flesh.




Have you forgotten? (Or, did you ever know?)

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but
whoever does not believe stands condemned
already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son."
​

Only one aspect of God is love. Righteousness and Justice must destroy all that would hinder love from being free at all times. There will be no rules and regulations in Eternity to live by. Men and angels will be free to do as they please in all things. For everything that requires rules and regulations now will have been destroyed and eliminated by God's RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUSTICE, for the sake of LOVE.

Revelation 20:15
"If anyone's name was not found written in
the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."






.
​

 

[GenemZ]

Free will,

Before the apple was offered, god told them not to eat of the tree. They had no choice, they did not eat from it. The devil came and offered them a choice between eating and not eating. At that moment they had a choice.

They already had a choice. The Devil was there as a "motivational speaker." Just like at the end of the Millennium the Devil will be released for a short time as to gather AND ORGANIZE all those who had been hating the Lord but had no one providing the leadership and organization for their hatred. Men will have a choice to hate the Lord. Having the power to do something about it is another matter.


As for Adam and Eve? They were already exercising their free will. How can we know?

Here was the command from God:

Genesis 2:16-17
"And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat
from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat
of it you will surely die."
​

What did it become of the command after the woman exercised her free will?

Genesis 3:1-3
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals
the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really
say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" ​

​

​

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from


the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not


eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden,


and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "





​

She had added to the command something that was not given by God. God never said that they could not touch it. It was only that they could not eat it.



​

CURIOSITY is one of the highest levels of expression found in free will. It leads to self motivated action many times. The woman added "must not touch it" because there had been some time where this fruit was intriguing her. She must have studied it closely and wondered about it. Adam watching her, saw her reaching out to touch it at one point. Its was he who added the command not to touch. That came from his free will.

The Devil who keenly observed both the man and woman for some time, noted her weakness. He saw that she would be the one to approach and to tempt. It was because of her free will motivation that the Devil approached her and not the man. For she was at the point where she desired to touch the fruit out of her curiosity.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

 

[An Arch Angel]

They already had a choice. The Devil was there as a "motivational speaker." Just like at the end of the Millennium the Devil will be released for a short time as to gather AND ORGANIZE all those who had been hating the Lord but had no one providing the leadership and organization for their hatred. Men will have a choice to hate the Lord. Having the power to do something about it is another matter.


As for Adam and Eve? They were already exercising their free will. How can we know?

Here was the command from God:

Genesis 2:16-17
"And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat
from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat
of it you will surely die."​

What did it become of the command after the woman exercised her free will?

Genesis 3:1-3
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals
the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really
say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" ​

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from ​

the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not ​

eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, ​

and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "​

She had added to the command something that was not given by God. God never said that they could not touch it. It was only that they could not eat it.​

CURIOSITY is one of the highest levels of expression found in free will. It leads to self motivated action many times. The woman added "must not touch it" because there had been some time where this fruit was intriguing her. She must have studied it closely and wondered about it. Adam watching her, saw her reaching out to touch it at one point. Its was he who added the command not to touch. That came from his free will.

The Devil who keenly observed both the man and woman for some time, noted her weakness. He saw that she would be the one to approach and to tempt. It was because of her free will motivation that the Devil approached her and not the man. For she was at the point where she desired to touch the fruit out of her curiosity.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

This is wrong genz on 2 levels.

1) The bible is a book of man to me, so quoting it is means I just stop reading your post.
2) Your interpretation is based on a literal interpretation that there was a “fall from grace”. This is not the case. You are in the grace of the Holy Spirit in Christ and have never left it.

The “fall” is created by the earthly ego that lives in the flesh. It needs to lesson you, hold you in fear, and deceive you so it can live. The flesh fears death beyond all else. There is no death for you. The devil’s best trick it to tell us that all of god’s will is in that apple (Bible). An apple is a good fruit and to be used accordingly.

Genz…until you understand that you, and you alone, give that book a life you will not understand my words.

 

[GenemZ]

This is wrong genz on 2 levels.

1) The bible is a book of man to me, so quoting it is means I just stop reading your post.

May I recommend several secular debate forums to you?

Obviously, you came to this Christian forum by mistake.

Let's see what you're doing...

Someone wants to discuss the best type of drum head for light jazz playing. Ahhh! Why don't I go to a oil drum manufacturing forum? Then demand they stop discussing what they are there for, and demand that they only discuss drum heads. Clear, or coated?

Then, when they tell me the forum is for discussing oil drum manufacturing, not musical instruments? I act as if they are the ones being unreasonable.
​

You need a Savior, sir. Your attitude screams out for needing one. But, God will let you try to save yourself. Save yourself from ever dying.

This is wrong genz on 2 levels.

1) The bible is a book of man to me, so quoting it is means I just stop reading your post.

This is a Christian Forum. Your only purpose here is to harass Christians who believe the Bible.

As you treat the Bible? Maybe all Christians here should begin treating you here. It would only be justice.




.

 

[GenemZ]

This is wrong genz on 2 levels.

1) The bible is a book of man to me, so quoting it is means I just stop reading your post.
2) Your interpretation is based on a literal interpretation that there was a “fall from grace”. This is not the case. You are in the grace of the Holy Spirit in Christ and have never left it.

The “fall” is created by the earthly ego that lives in the flesh. It needs to lesson you, hold you in fear, and deceive you so it can live. The flesh fears death beyond all else. There is no death for you. The devil’s best trick it to tell us that all of god’s will is in that apple (Bible). An apple is a good fruit and to be used accordingly.

Genz…until you understand that you, and you alone, give that book a life you will not understand my words.

Why is it? You keep quoting themes from the Bible? To make your point that the Bible is not valid?

You remind me of the man who took his gun to the gun shop to have his sites zeroed in, because he kept missing his foot.




.

 

[Codger]

There is a unique problem in creating spiritual beings. Newly created beings like Adam and Eve had absolutely no frame of reference to Evil. Neither do newly born children. But in our day we have to teach them about evil. Can you imagine an adult (Adam) that knows nothing about evil? That was Adam and Eve. So I wouldn't be too tough on Adam and Eve. All of you here have 100,000 times more reference to evil than they did. All they had was God telling them not to do something. Actually God in his foreknowledge knew that they would fall and disobey him especially with the evil one coaching them with his half truths. The scripture says that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. So God knew about the fall and he already made plans for some legal way to bring his fallen people back to him. But it cost him a lot to do it.

Actually, God set Adam and Eve up in a manner of speaking. He made everything crystal clear - black and white. Don't eat of the fruit of this one tree. To disobey him was to destroy their relationship with him by doing something that is against his character - which is what sin is. Then began the plan of restoration just as God foresaw. Yes all created beings have a free will - God is very, very big on that as it is part of his character.

The "Tree of Life" was the Almond tree. The tree of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" was the Fig tree. This was a Jewish tradition which is born out by Jesus who Cursed a descendant of the first tree in the Garden. He said to the fig tree on the side of the mount of olives...

Matthew 21:19 (NASB)
And seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it, and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

He was symbolically cursing that very first fig tree from which Adam and Eve first ate and was saying that never again would humanity fall again because of its fruit. This was only a few days before the Crucifixion. He was about to undo the curse brought about by the acts of Adam and Eve and the first fig tree. Where is the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil today? Of course it is dead - Jesus cursed it and it withered away and is gone forever.

Of course there was no special significance to those first two trees in the Garden - God made them - and only them - special because of his pronouncements over them.

Just a little background info.

Larry

 

[Blue sapphire]

This is wrong genz on 2 levels.

1) The bible is a book of man to me, so quoting it is means I just stop reading your post.
2) Your interpretation is based on a literal interpretation that there was a “fall from grace”. This is not the case. You are in the grace of the Holy Spirit in Christ and have never left it.

The “fall” is created by the earthly ego that lives in the flesh. It needs to lesson you, hold you in fear, and deceive you so it can live. The flesh fears death beyond all else. There is no death for you. The devil’s best trick it to tell us that all of god’s will is in that apple (Bible). An apple is a good fruit and to be used accordingly.

Genz…until you understand that you, and you alone, give that book a life you will not understand my words.

This sentence informs me that this thread is not for you......if one places no confidence in the words of the Bible....for one's belief is that it is not the inspired word of God......why even post.

 

[Blue sapphire]

There is a unique problem in creating spiritual beings. Newly created beings like Adam and Eve had absolutely no frame of reference to Evil. Neither do newly born children. But in our day we have to teach them about evil. Can you imagine an adult (Adam) that knows nothing about evil? That was Adam and Eve. So I wouldn't be too tough on Adam and Eve. All of you here have 100,000 times more reference to evil than they did. All they had was God telling them not to do something. Actually God in his foreknowledge knew that they would fall and disobey him especially with the evil one coaching them with his half truths. The scripture says that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. So God knew about the fall and he already made plans for some legal way to bring his fallen people back to him. But it cost him a lot to do it.

Actually, God set Adam and Eve up in a manner of speaking. He made everything crystal clear - black and white. Don't eat of the fruit of this one tree. To disobey him was to destroy their relationship with him by doing something that is against his character - which is what sin is. Then began the plan of restoration just as God foresaw. Yes all created beings have a free will - God is very, very big on that as it is part of his character.

The "Tree of Life" was the Almond tree. The tree of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" was the Fig tree. This was a Jewish tradition which is born out by Jesus who Cursed a descendant of the first tree in the Garden. He said to the fig tree on the side of the mount of olives...

Matthew 21:19 (NASB)
And seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it, and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

He was symbolically cursing that very first fig tree from which Adam and Eve first ate and was saying that never again would humanity fall again because of its fruit. This was only a few days before the Crucifixion. He was about to undo the curse brought about by the acts of Adam and Eve and the first fig tree. Where is the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil today? Of course it is dead - Jesus cursed it and it withered away and is gone forever.

Of course there was no special significance to those first two trees in the Garden - God made them - and only them - special because of his pronouncements over them.

Just a little background info.

Larry

I would like to take these thoughts into another thread so that this one is not cluttered. They are interesting and worth pursuing....for right here lies some amazing things about the ways of our Creator.

The thread will be in this forum Apologetics....called "Freewill....is it free or has God preordained it?

 

[GenemZ]

The "Tree of Life" was the Almond tree. The tree of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" was the Fig tree. This was a Jewish tradition which is born out by Jesus who Cursed a descendant of the first tree in the Garden. He said to the fig tree on the side of the mount of olives...

Matthew 21:19 (NASB)
And seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it, and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

He was symbolically cursing that very first fig tree from which Adam and Eve first ate and was saying that never again would humanity fall again because of its fruit.

Excellent insight into Jewish traditional thought. I always wondered why Jesus cursed the tree like he did. I have a slightly different conclusion, but that does not matter. One can not conclude anything without first knowing what the Jews thought in that day.

Great to know!



Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

 

[An Arch Angel]

This sentence informs me that this thread is not for you......if one places no confidence in the words of the Bible....for one's belief is that it is not the inspired word of God......why even post.

It was inspired by god, not written by god. The RCC assembled preexisting books written by men. The inspiration came in picking the right man made books that best answered the questions.

 

[An Arch Angel]

Why is it? You keep quoting themes from the Bible? To make your point that the Bible is not valid?

You remind me of the man who took his gun to the gun shop to have his sites zeroed in, because he kept missing his foot.




.

what,

1) I did not insult you, so do not insult me.


2) You put big huge passages all over the place. You do not even have the courtesy to make the font smaller to get as much of the post on the screen as possible.

3) Also:


If you are made to be curious, i.e.: to explore everything, then exploring is what you do. Lions will hunt, they have no free will. The choice to explore (fulfill the creation) was not given until the apple was offered. Before that time god said no, and they followed that command.

When the apple was offered, Adam and Eve then explored the possibilities offered to them. They fulfilled their “programming”.

This is child's play.

 

[Codger]

I would like to take these thoughts into another thread so that this one is not cluttered. They are interesting and worth pursuing....for right here lies some amazing things about the ways of our Creator.

The thread will be in this forum Apologetics....called "Freewill....is it free or has God preordained it?

More and more I see the interconnection of thousands of symbols in the Bible and this is just a couple. They are everywhere from the Garden to today.

Larry