How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?

[BNR32FAN]

Salvation, being saved, happens when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. When the jailer at Philippi asked what he had to do to be saved, the apostles replied:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Ac 16:31 NKJV)

Also, Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

He also wrote that Christ will present us before The Father holy and blameless beyond reproach IF we remain steadfast in our faith in the gospel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Only a Christian who is full of the Holy Spirit can endure to the end. Without the Holy Spirit we stand no chance.

Salvation does not depend on us or the way we live, but on God alone. If it depended on us, we would all fail and there would be no need of the gospel.

Either Christ is your Saviour, died and paid for your sin, or He did not. This does not depend on us, but on God alone.

I'm sick of Christians constantly saying that Salvation can be lost and it depends on the way we live. It's false gospel.

If we deny Him, He will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12. How is it that Paul and Timothy can deny Christ and Christ will deny them if they can’t lose their salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I highly recommended that you find a copy of Martin Luther's commentary on the book of Galatians.
And read it prayerfully.

You will find so many conflicting points of view and long winded responses in this forum, its sure to make your head spin. When its all said and done you are likely to be even more confused than when you began.

Start with Luther. I think you'll find what you are searching for.

Open debates are a way better option because you’re not just going to get one side of the argument like you will in a commentary.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1 John 2:19 KJV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 7:23 KJV
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 5:19-20 and 2 Timothy 2:12 proves your interpretation of 1 John 2:19 is incorrect.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

1 John 2:19 is talking about a specific group of people, not all Christians in general. James 5 clearly teaches that any true believing Christian can in fact stray from faith and be in danger of the death of their soul and Paul even says that both he and Timothy were capable of doing the exact same thing resulting in Christ denying them before The Father on Judgement Day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sadly not long enough.

It seems folks prefer to own the thoughts of others too quickly rather than getting inspiration for themselves. I read nothing but scripture for 5 years straight to gain a devotional sense of the message and the themes.

Yeah but there’s nothing wrong in engaging in discussions especially here on CF where there’s a wide range of different perspectives to consider. It definitely beats listening to someone preach or reading commentaries because you have people pointing out the errors of others and presenting scripture to support their position.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do…

Satan hates confident Christians and fights tooth and nail to challenge assurance of salvation.

Eternal life is eternal life. If this is the gift we receive the question is settled.

Except we have to abide in Christ and endure to the end to actually receive it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

The Greek word Harpazo refers to a third party’s involvement. It means that no one can take away your salvation, it doesn’t mean you can’t turn away from Christ or that you cannot be cast away by Him.

Strong's Lexicon harpazó: To seize, snatch, take away by force​ Original Word: ἁρπάζω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: harpazó Pronunciation: har-pad'-zo Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo) Definition: To seize, snatch, take away by force Meaning: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery. Word Origin: Derived from a primary root; akin to 138 (haireomai, meaning "to take for oneself"). Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H1497 (gāzal): To tear away, seize, plunder - H8610 (tāphas): To seize, capture, grasp Usage: The Greek verb "harpazó" conveys the idea of seizing or snatching away with force or suddenness. It is often used in contexts where something is taken quickly or forcefully, sometimes implying a rescue or deliverance. In the New Testament, it is frequently associated with divine intervention or the power of God.

In John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that doesn’t bear fruit. And in 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul makes it clear that both he and Timothy can deny Christ resulting in Christ denying them before The Father.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We will have agree to disagree on this. Salvation is to be celebrated as an eternal promise and certainly does not have to lead to lawlessness. One can hardly have the joy of the Lord and be in fear of hell at the same time.

We can know if we are abiding in Christ so we only need to fear if we turn away from Him but that fear only serves to turn us right back to Him. We’re in control of whether or not we abide in Christ so there’s really nothing to fear since all we have to do is repent to come back to Him. So we’re not fearing something that is beyond our control.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Paul wrote to Timothy and said “ If we deny Him, He will deny us”.

So Christ satisfies God's just wrath on the cross for God's elect, yet a person can end in hell...right. Based on what may I ask? God's wrath is satisfied, why would the person then suffer in hell.

When Christ was dying on the cross He said 'it is finished' or 'tetelestai' in Greek. Tetelestai was a stamp 2,000 years ago that was stamped on an invoice to confirm the dept was paid for in full. This is what happened on the cross. Christ paid in full for the debt of every believer, past, present, future. The debt is paid. How can one lose salvation. Based on what? There is no judgment for those in Christ.

Ah humanity, how long will you try to get to Heaven with your own effort?

You realize by saying that salvation can be lost, you are saying to the Father that He's not done enough by sending His only Son? You are saying to the Son that Him giving Himself on the cross was not enough. What are you a filthy sinner trying to add to the cross of Christ. You are rejecting God's grace if you are trying to get to Heaven by your own effort. It won't end well.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Why would anyone reman a sinner when Jesus has made a way to be a non-sinner ?

I did not say we remain in sin. However, we do not live a perfect sinless life. When we are born again, God removes the stony heart, and replaces it with a heart of flesh, that desires and obeys Him, but we still live in a sinful flesh. That's why Paul tells us in Romans 7 '15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Look at David, how many times he sinned despite being saved, and God saying about David that he is the man according to God's heart. Abraham, who sinned after being saved. You think these 2 men lost salvation? No. So God does not only forgive the sins until the moment we believe, but He cleanses us from all the sin.

Now of course this not mean we are free to sin. Sin is still deadly and has horrible consequences. Christians are the bride of God. And what does a bride do? You grows in love and does what her beloved desires.

Look at the first Abraham covenant with God. Abraham was asleep, he played no part in it. And God says I will do this, and this, and this. Every true believer is in this covenant. It is God's grace that saves, not our deeds, that would no longer be saved.

We have our part to play, in the greatest story ever told.

We are spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves. Salvation is us laying dead at the bottom of the ocean, Christ jumps in, saves us and gives us life.

Why do you think God gave 10 commandments to Israel? So they can save themself? No, none of us can keep God's Holy Law. God gave the commandments so Israel can see they cannot keep them because they are sinner and they need a Saviour, which should have lead them to crying over their pitiful sinful state.

through water baptism

water baptism does not save. anyone can get water baptised.
It is God cleansing from above that saves. It is something God does not us

He paid for the sins committed up to the time of your baptism.

Absolutely not. This is false gospel. He fully satisfied God's wrath on the cross, otherwise God's wrath remains on you.

What you say that salvation can be lost the moment a Christian sins. So you are telling me you lived a perfect life full of obedience without sin, right? Otherwise you going to hell. I can guarantee you you did not fully love God like it is commanded, none of us do.

I don't teach anything like that.

You teach that you can get to Heaven by your own efforts.
You teach that Christ has not done enough on a cross.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Written to believers: Do not fear man, who can destroy the body but cannot touch the soul;
rather fear the Creator Everlasting who can destroy both the body and the soul.

Amen, well it was spoken to Jesus’ 12 disciples which one of them was a false professor but the message still applies to all of them and Paul also applied that same message to Him and Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:12.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So Christ satisfies God's just wrath on the cross for God's elect, yet a person can end in hell...right. Based on what may I ask? God's wrath is satisfied, why would the person then suffer in hell.

When Christ was dying on the cross He said 'it is finished' or 'tetelestai' in Greek. Tetelestai was a stamp 2,000 years ago that was stamped on an invoice to confirm the dept was paid for in full. This is what happened on the cross. Christ paid in full for the debt of every believer, past, present, future. The debt is paid. How can one lose salvation. Based on what? There is no judgment for those in Christ.

Ah humanity, how long will you try to get to Heaven with your own effort?

You realize by saying that salvation can be lost, you are saying to the Father that He's not done enough by sending His only Son? You are saying to the Son that Him giving Himself on the cross was not enough. What are you a filthy sinner trying to add to the cross of Christ. You are rejecting God's grace if you are trying to get to Heaven by your own effort. It won't end well.

Will you just address the passage please? 2 Timothy 2:12 is scripture so please explain how this doesn’t mean that Paul can lose his salvation.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Will you just address the passage please? 2 Timothy 2:12 is scripture so please explain how this doesn’t mean that Paul can lose his salvation.

I already explained it by explaining the cross. But let's look at the verse more closely.

To understand the verse you mention, we must look at the context. Starting from verse 11.
Paul in verse 11 acknowledges that, because we have died together with Christ, we will live together with Him. We will enjoy life everlasting with Christ. Paul states this as fact. This is not merely an “if” but a “since.” It is a fact that we have died together , and it is a certainty that in the future we will live together with Christ.

Next, Paul encourages believers that, since we are enduring, then we will reign together with Him and each other. As John explained it in Revelation, believers overcome through Christ who has Himself overcome.

2 Timothy 2:12b changes the tense of the (protasis) action from present to future, rendering the first part of the couplet, “if we deny in the future.” If there is such a denial, then He will also deny us. Jesus used similar terminology when He explained that, if people denied Him before men, He would deny them before the Father. It is important to note that Jesus was talking to His twelve disciples. He explains that the Spirit would be speaking through them, and He warns them of the need to be faithful in confessing Him before men and not denying Him—He is challenging them to be faithful messengers for Him. There was reward for confessing Him before men, and consequences for denying Him before men. (Read Matthew 10).

When Paul says that Jesus will deny us, he is not talking about loss of salvation or change in positional standing before God. Much like Jesus warned His twelve disciples, Paul reminds Timothy that there are consequences to unfaithfulness in ministry. Paul had explained earlier in this context the importance of engaging like a good soldier, an athlete competing according to the rules, and a hard-working farmer

Now explain how a believer can lose salvation, when Christ satisfied God's wrath on the cross, and the believer passed from judgement to life? Will God judge us twice, once He forgives us in Christ, but then changes His mind, and judges us for the sin His Son has paid for on the cross? How does that work? How is it that all of you who say that salvation can be lost, cannot explain this?

 

[Carl Emerson]

If we deny Him, He will deny us 2 Timothy 2:12

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This was the New Covenant prophesied to come.

Jer 32
38 They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

The indwelling Holy Spirit seals salvation because He is also brings the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord (one of the seven Spirits of God) which makes the true believer incapable of denying the Lord.

 

[BNR32FAN]

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Yeah the word faithless (Apistos) literally means the opposite of faith or unbelieving. Are we saved by faith or are we saved without faith? Are we saved by believing or are we saved if we’re unbelieving ? Before you answer I should quote John 3:36.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭36‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The term “does not obey” also means does not believe or rejects. I explain all of this in my video.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If it were possible the very elect would be deceived... but they wont be.

If it were possible we would deny Him... but we wont

Yeah the word faithless (Apistos) literally means the opposite of faith or unbelieving. Are we saved by faith or are we saved without faith? Are we saved by believing or are we saved if we’re unbelieving ?

Faith is a gift. Believers have heard the Word of Christ (where faith comes from.)
It is not a mindset we have to maintain.
When we receive the gift of faith, our adoption into His eternal family is settled.

We may slip into unbelief but He knows we are as clay and will not let us slide into sin to the extent that our status as adopted sons and daughters is threatened. He does this by the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord as promised. This seals our salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If it were possible the very elect would be deceived... but they wont be.

If it were possible we would deny Him... but we wont


Faith is a gift. Believers have heard the Word of Christ (where faith comes from.)
It is not a mindset we have to maintain.
When we receive the gift of faith, our adoption into His eternal family is settled.

We may slip into unbelief but He knows we are as clay and will not let us slide into sin to the extent that our status as adopted sons and daughters is threatened. He does this by the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord as promised. This seals our salvation.

So when Paul said “if we deny Him, He will deny us” what did he mean that Jesus would deny them? To me it sounds like your interpretation of verse 13 contradicts verse 12. You’re saying that if we are faithless we will still be saved but Paul had just said that if we deny Christ which is the definition of faithless apistos then Christ will deny us. How can we be saved while being denied by Christ?

 

[Aaron112]

So when Paul said “if we deny Him, He will deny us” what did he mean that Jesus would deny them?

SURPRISE! (but not a good one) for billions of people who deny or crucify Jesus every morning.

 

[Hoping2]

I did not say we remain in sin. However, we do not live a perfect sinless life.

Do you always nullify yourself immediately after writing things ?

When we are born again, God removes the stony heart, and replaces it with a heart of flesh, that desires and obeys Him, but we still live in a sinful flesh.

That would amount to a partial rebirth.
2 Cor 5:17 says differently.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

That's why Paul tells us in Romans 7 '15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Look at David, how many times he sinned despite being saved, and God saying about David that he is the man according to God's heart. Abraham, who sinned after being saved. You think these 2 men lost salvation? No. So God does not only forgive the sins until the moment we believe, but He cleanses us from all the sin.

Now of course this not mean we are free to sin. Sin is still deadly and has horrible consequences. Christians are the bride of God. And what does a bride do? You grows in love and does what her beloved desires.

Look at the first Abraham covenant with God. Abraham was asleep, he played no part in it. And God says I will do this, and this, and this. Every true believer is in this covenant. It is God's grace that saves, not our deeds, that would no longer be saved.



We are spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves. Salvation is us laying dead at the bottom of the ocean, Christ jumps in, saves us and gives us life.

Why do you think God gave 10 commandments to Israel? So they can save themself? No, none of us can keep God's Holy Law. God gave the commandments so Israel can see they cannot keep them because they are sinner and they need a Saviour, which should have lead them to crying over their pitiful sinful state.


water baptism does not save. anyone can get water baptised.
It is God cleansing from above that saves. It is something God does not us


Absolutely not. This is false gospel. He fully satisfied God's wrath on the cross, otherwise God's wrath remains on you.

What you say that salvation can be lost the moment a Christian sins. So you are telling me you lived a perfect life full of obedience without sin, right? Otherwise you going to hell. I can guarantee you you did not fully love God like it is commanded, none of us do.


You teach that you can get to Heaven by your own efforts.
You teach that Christ has not done enough on a cross.