How large would a bird need to be to carry us aloft?

[Radrook]

Hmmmmm.

I've had some enjoyable visits to various contained creatures in some places, but just as part of the general public. A dolphin once created a little game to play with me (as I'm sure it did with others too), and I've sat gazing into the faces of gorillas and orangutans from a few inches away. Nothing much I can take away from the experiences though.

I know man has long tried to define what sets us apart from animals. Tool use, tool creation, emotion, altruism, language, abstract thought, self-awareness, thoughts of the afterlife. Most barriers fall when seriously challenged. I think God has given animals much of what we have, proper to their own place.

I do think we have a different sort of spirit, but I think that would be hard to define and probably impossible to measure any aspect of. I don't worry about it. I believe mankind is special in God's creation, but I'm not threatened by likeness discovered between us and animals. It needn't diminish man, to elevate animals in various proper ways.

And God cares for all of creation. We are like Him in that way when do as well.

It is all quite interesting though.

I agree, some might indeed perceive the abilities of animals as a threat to human uniqueness as mentioned in Genesis. I also agree that the more we behave like Satan the less in his image we become.

BTW
About God caring for his creation, how do you fit predation in with that view? Some animals eat other alive. I guess he cares about them in the same way he cares about us and yet allows all kinds of horrible things to happen-right? Also, the mass extinctions appear more like a purposeful change in an exhibition at a museum. Of course that could merely be a change in this Museum Earth and not in others where these animals might still be doing quite well. That's one impression that MIGHT BE CONVEYED.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe death and sin entered the world through man. God created everything good. I don't think animals were designed to tear at one another and kill one another and eat each other alive. I don't think mankind was created to torture and cause suffering of others.

Man was created in God's image, Who is love. It was all very good. Creation was meant to exist in goodness, peace, love. And it will again one day, when all things are restored.

But because man turned from that initial goodness, and dragged Creation down with him, all things became infected with sin, man was no longer a Christ-like presence to the animals, peace destroyed, death reigns, corruption happens, everything is now motivated to survive, often at the expense of others. But I think this grieves God deeply, whether it is a predator ripping flesh from an infant prey animal and swallowing pieces while it still breathes its last, or whether it is man taking pleasure in acts that bring torment to innocents, or a million other terrible occurrences.

But it has happened because of our choice, and will continue because of our choice until He stops it. Perhaps by then we will be enough like Him to hate such things as fervently as He does.

Mass extinctions are no different, but are likely to be something He uses for ultimate purpose, but were introduced because man brought sin and death, not because God actually desires them or sees it as good in any way.

 

[Radrook]

I believe death and sin entered the world through man. God created everything good. I don't think animals were designed to tear at one another and kill one another and eat each other alive. I don't think mankind was created to torture and cause suffering of others.

Man was created in God's image, Who is love. It was all very good. Creation was meant to exist in goodness, peace, love. And it will again one day, when all things are restored.

But because man turned from that initial goodness, and dragged Creation down with him, all things became infected with sin, man was no longer a Christ-like presence to the animals, peace destroyed, death reigns, corruption happens, everything is now motivated to survive, often at the expense of others. But I think this grieves God deeply, whether it is a predator ripping flesh from an infant prey animal and swallowing pieces while it still breathes its last, or whether it is man taking pleasure in acts that bring torment to innocents, or a million other terrible occurrences.

But it has happened because of our choice, and will continue because of our choice until He stops it. Perhaps by then we will be enough like Him to hate such things as fervently as He does.

Mass extinctions are no different, but are likely to be something He uses for ultimate purpose, but were introduced because man brought sin and death, not because God actually desires them or sees it as good in any way.

Are you a young Earther? The reason I ask is because very often scientists say that they find fossils of dinosaurs which show signs of predation. You know such as tooth marks on their bones. The denomination which I once belonged to believed that dinosaurs predated mankind. So if they predated mankind and sin had not entered the world then there shouldn't be any signs of predation-correct? Or do you believe that such scientists are either misinterpreting the fossils or else making things up?

BTW
If indeed all the horrible things grieve God deeply then his grief involves not being able to take immediate action because of certain agendas that must first be met. At least that is what I was taught. In that scenario it seems as if his hands are temporarily tied by his own infinite sense of judicial propriety.

 

[Radrook]

Here is a weasel riding a woodpecker!

 

[Radrook]

However big it was, it seems unlikely that evolution would have equipped it with wing muscles powerful enough to carry us aloft, along with its own weight - unless carrying us represented only a marginal increase in the amount of mass it needed to carry skyward. In that case, I suppose it would need to be at least the size of a horse, or an elephant.

Here is the way Palagornis is imagined to have flown:

As big as it was it only weight 48 pounds!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Are you a young Earther? The reason I ask is because very often scientists say that they find fossils of dinosaurs which show signs of predation. You know such as tooth marks on their bones. The denomination which I once belonged to believed that dinosaurs predated mankind. So if they predated mankind and sin had not entered the world then there shouldn't be any signs of predation-correct? Or do you believe that such scientists are either misinterpreting the fossils or else making things up?

BTW
If indeed all the horrible things grieve God deeply then his grief involves not being able to take immediate action because of certain agendas that must first be met. At least that is what I was taught. In that scenario it seems as if his hands are temporarily tied by his own infinite sense of judicial propriety.

Oh no, not a young earther.

I'm slightly agnostic on certain particular details of creation, most especially those that explain how this and that fit together.

But no matter how you slice it, if man is a new(er) creation, I believe God placed us on an older rock.

I could offer several possible scenarios of how this could be true, but I'm not saying I know which of them is true, if any, or if it's another explanation altogether I may not have thought of.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here is a weasel riding a woodpecker!

lol my first thought was the weaselwas probably in the process of attacking the woodpecker - and it seems that was the case.

 

[Radrook]

lol my first thought was the weaselwas probably in the process of attacking the woodpecker - and it seems that was the case.

Maybe when he suddenly found himself aloft the only concern momentarily was to hang on for dear life! LOL!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe when he suddenly found himself aloft the only concern momentarily was to hang on for dear life! LOL!

Maybe!

But weasels certainly seem like bloodthirsty little creatures. They are one of the rare animals that will kill many when they can only eat one or a few.

I tend to think he "deserved" to be afraid though, and hoped he would have been. That's my anthropomorphism shining through.

 

[Radrook]

Maybe!

But weasels certainly seem like bloodthirsty little creatures. They are one of the rare animals that will kill many when they can only eat one or a few.

I tend to think he "deserved" to be afraid though, and hoped he would have been. That's my anthropomorphism shining through.

I'm surprised it got airborne with that weight on its back. I guess that sudden surge of adrenaline had something to do with it.

 

[dad]

Do the birds shown in that Lord of Rings video meet that size requirement? How about Pelagornis Sandersi, the bird I mentioned in the oped? Does it meet that size criterion?

I would say yes! Why not!? That might explain some Kurt Vonnegut type things about how man maybe used to fly.
(Since man and most animals likely did not leave fossil remains in the early days of man, there may have been an even bigger bird then)

"My airchair dersigns are intended to provide open air soaring, forgiving flight characteristics, convenient transport, simple "garage technology" construction, and a high level of crash safety. In the United States, all unpowered ultralights, including paragliders, hang gliders, and airchairs are regulated under FAR Part 103, which allows gliders to be built and flown with no direct official oversight as long as they weigh less than 155 lbs."

Basic Ultralight Glider

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm surprised it got airborne with that weight on its back. I guess that sudden surge of adrenaline had something to do with it.

That's what I was thinking too, that the physics is essentially impossible, but fear might have given some extra jump to the woodpecker's legs, or something like that. It seems it was only a short, low flight anyway.

 

[Radrook]

That's what I was thinking too, that the physics is essentially impossible, but fear might have given some extra jump to the woodpecker's legs, or something like that. It seems it was only a short, low flight anyway.

The ones who shot the film said that they heard a commotion in the bushes after the bird hit the ground and assumed that there had been a brief scuffle. Maybe the weasel was disoriented by the whole experience and that provide the woodpecker with just enough time to extricate itself from that potentially deadly encounter. All during the brief flight the woodpecker was loudly crying out in distress.

BTW
Yes, there are photos of many dead chickens that the weasels kill just for sport. Why would any animal do such a thing?

 

[Radrook]

I would say yes! Why not!? That might explain some Kurt Vonnegut type things about how man maybe used to fly.
(Since man and most animals likely did not leave fossil remains in the early days of man, there may have been an even bigger bird then)

"My airchair dersigns are intended to provide open air soaring, forgiving flight characteristics, convenient transport, simple "garage technology" construction, and a high level of crash safety. In the United States, all unpowered ultralights, including paragliders, hang gliders, and airchairs are regulated under FAR Part 103, which allows gliders to be built and flown with no direct official oversight as long as they weigh less than 155 lbs."

Basic Ultralight Glider

Is that one of the gliders you designed? Looks like a lot of fun! What is the long distance record for a glider of that type?

I once studied a book on how to fly a plane but have never actually done it. My fear in Hangliding would be to suddenly lose lift and plummet straight down. But I guess that is based on my ignorance the dynamics involved.

BTW

The birds that I mentioned as large do have wide wingspans but they are extremely light. That biggest one is described as weighing only 48 pounds. So getting on top of it with 200 pounds might seriously injure it. Perhaps it is as you say, that there were once birds big enough to carry humans but which have gone extinct. But the one discovered so far are just too flimsy.

 

[dad]

Is that one of the gliders you designed? Looks like a lot of fun! What is the long distance record for a glider of that type?

No. I just googled small glider to find something the size of the fossil birds.

I once studied a book on how to fly a plane but have never actually done it. My fear in Hangliding would be to suddenly lose lift and plummet straight down. But I guess that is based on my ignorance the dynamics involved.

Maybe it was easier to just catch a ride on the neck of a bird.

BTW

The birds that I mentioned as large do have wide wingspans but they are extremely light. That biggest one is described as weighing only 48 pounds. So getting on top of it with 200 pounds might seriously injure it. Perhaps it is as you say, that there were once birds big enough to carry humans but which have gone extinct. But the one discovered so far are just too flimsy.

This eagle grabbed a calf seemingly heavier than the bird.

"
COMMON NAME: Golden Eagle

SCIENTIFIC NAME: Aquila chrysaetos

TYPE: Birds

DIET: Carnivores

AVERAGE LIFE SPAN IN THE WILD: 30 years

SIZE: 33 to 38 in; wingspan, 6 to 7.5 ft

WEIGHT: 6 to 15 lbs

SIZE RELATIVE TO A 6-FT MAN:

Golden Eagle | National Geographic

"The largest known flying creatures overall are not birds, but instead the azhdarchid pterosaurs of the Cretaceous. The wingspans of larger azhdarchids, such as Quetzalcoatlus and Hatzegopteryx, have been estimated to exceed 10 m (33 ft), with less conservative estimates being 12 m (39 ft) or more. Mass estimates for these azhdarchids are on the order of 200–250 kg (440–550 lb).[7]

Argentavis - Wikipedia

Quetzalcoatlus - Wikipedia

Now if that eagle could lift the lamb, it looks like the man here would be an easy lift for the big creature!

 

[Radrook]

No. I just googled small glider to find something the size of the fossil birds.

Maybe it was easier to just catch a ride on the neck of a bird.

This eagle grabbed a calf seemingly heavier than the bird.

"
COMMON NAME: Golden Eagle

SCIENTIFIC NAME: Aquila chrysaetos

TYPE: Birds

DIET: Carnivores

AVERAGE LIFE SPAN IN THE WILD: 30 years

SIZE: 33 to 38 in; wingspan, 6 to 7.5 ft

WEIGHT: 6 to 15 lbs

SIZE RELATIVE TO A 6-FT MAN:

Golden Eagle | National Geographic

"The largest known flying creatures overall are not birds, but instead the azhdarchid pterosaurs of the Cretaceous. The wingspans of larger azhdarchids, such as Quetzalcoatlus and Hatzegopteryx, have been estimated to exceed 10 m (33 ft), with less conservative estimates being 12 m (39 ft) or more. Mass estimates for these azhdarchids are on the order of 200–250 kg (440–550 lb).[7]

Argentavis - Wikipedia

Quetzalcoatlus - Wikipedia

Now if that eagle could lift the lamb, it looks like the man here would be an easy lift for the big creature!

Thanks for the video! That Eagle seems to have killed that animal since it wasn't struggling.
Notice that it depends an gravity to descend with it.

Yes, you are right. Those pterosaurs do indeed look more capable of providing a ride. How exactly do we secure the saddle without hindering its flapping ability is the questing.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The ones who shot the film said that they heard a commotion in the bushes after the bird hit the ground and assumed that there had been a brief scuffle. Maybe the weasel was disoriented by the whole experience and that provide the woodpecker with just enough time to extricate itself from that potentially deadly encounter. All during the brief flight the woodpecker was loudly crying out in distress.

BTW
Yes, there are photos of many dead chickens that the weasels kill just for sport. Why would any animal do such a thing?

More than just photos ...

I doubt the weasels actually kill "for sport" though I described them as bloodthirsty or some such a few posts up.

Maybe they are just so motivated by the sight of a bird breathing thatvthey feel compelled to attack it? Weasels have to be killing machines ... they cannot go long without food or they will starve.

Still, it makes more sense to kill only what they can eat, which might leave more prey later, rather than wiping it all out at first opportunity. But frequently they will do just that, killing an entire flock, eating just a few heads or organs, leaving the rest to rot. Very few predators would do such a thing.

NOT my favorite creatures. Very difficult to prevent them from being able to get into a coop at all, but I think our current chickens are safe.

 

[dad]

Thanks for the video! That Eagle seems to have killed that animal since it wasn't struggling.
Notice that it depends an gravity to descend with it.

Yes, you are right. Those pterosaurs do indeed look more capable of providing a ride. How exactly do we secure the saddle without hindering its flapping ability is the questing.

Maybe you sneak up on it at night and put some cord or sock on it's beak to start?

I would think the main issue is the usual timeline given by science, to where they claim there were no men living at the time the big flying birds and gliders lived. Once we get over that, well...they ride horses don't they? I would suppose if any men did ride them, it may have been smaller men. Like jockeys of the sky.

 

[Radrook]

Maybe you sneak up on it at night and put some cord or sock on it's beak to start?

I would think the main issue is the usual timeline given by science, to where they claim there were no men living at the time the big flying birds and gliders lived. Once we get over that, well...they ride horses don't they? I would suppose if any men did ride them, it may have been smaller men. Like jockeys of the sky.

Hopefully it wasn't be as difficult as in Avatar to saddle one up.
Had to remove the video because I notice that Jake uses foul language during the difficult part of his first flight when the creature is seems disoriented and is thrashing all over the place and while plummeting straight down.

 

[dad]

Hopefully it wasn't be as difficult as in Avatar to saddle one up.
Had to remove the video because I notice that Jake uses foul language during the difficult part of his first flight when the creature is seems disoriented and is thrashing all over the place and while plummeting straight down.

Man is smart. Man killed bison by running them off a cliff. Man used animals all through history. If those 400-500 pound flying dinos lived today, I bet some might try to ride em if it was legal.