How large would a bird need to be to carry us aloft?

[Radrook]

What I meant is that a bird that could carry weight on its back would be an anomaly for "what birds are". Why would they need to do that?

Horses are strong and fast because it helps them escape predators. Animals grow hair or wool that we harvest because it keeps them warm, they produce milk we use because it feeds their babies. Dogs are good protectors and hunters so they could protect their packs and hunt food for themselves, and so on. Basically we take advantage of what an animal already uses.

But why would a bird need to carry something on its back? Extra weight is a detriment. They can't generally place or carry things there themselves.

Although, I have had hens that were so broody, they actually managed to steal eggs from other hens' nests when I had raised wooden dividers separating them. So SOMEHOW the hens managed to lift an egg over a low wooden wall, move it across space, and over another wall, without breaking the egg. Repeatedly. I had pencil marks on the eggs because they were eggs my hens were hatching for someone else, and no one else had access to the coop, so I know they did it, but I never figured out how.

Isn't an eagle supposed to be strong enough to carry off a small lamb? Also, ostriches are birds and they carry people on their back. Why would a flightless bird they be made strong enough to do that?

Job 39:18
New International Version
Yet when she spreads her feathers to run, she laughs at horse and rider.

Talking about being carried aloft!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Isn't an eagle supposed to be strong enough to carry off a small lamb? Also, ostriches are birds and they carry people on their back. Why would a flightless bird they be made strong enough to do that?

Talking about being carried aloft!

Eagles can carry of lambs because they can eat them, or take them to their young to eat.

Ostriches have legs strong enough to be able to carry a person on their backs because they cannot fly to escape predators, so they need to be able to run quite fast instead and if necessary can kick a lion hard enough to seriously injure it. But those same muscles help make them far too heavy to fly.

 

[Radrook]

Eagles can carry of lambs because they can eat them, or take them to their young to eat.

Ostriches have legs strong enough to be able to carry a person on their backs because they cannot fly to escape predators, so they need to be able to run quite fast instead and if necessary can kick a lion hard enough to seriously injure it. But those same muscles help make them far too heavy to fly.

Did you notice in that video I posted how that eagle almost flew away with that child and the parent didn't even notice until he had him approx. 12 feet in the air? I don't know if the eagle lost its grip or the child was a bit heavy for it. But that definitely was a close call. Imagine if it had gained altitude and dropped it. Even worse, that it had taken it back to its nest! I mean, the parent wasn't going to be able to follow that eagle as it flew away. Poor kid!

BTW
That fellow with the video cam saw it swooping in and didn't yell a warning!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Did you notice in that video I posted how that eagle almost flew away with that child and the parent didn't even notice until he had him approx. 12 feet in the air? I don't know if the eagle lost its grip or the child was a bit heavy for it. But that definitely was a close call. Imagine if it had gained altitude and dropped it. Even worse, that it had taken it back to its nest! I mean, the parent wasn't going to be able to follow that eagle as it flew away. Poor kid!

BTW
That fellow with the video cam saw it swooping in and didn't yell a warning!

That is pretty amazing. And potentially terrible.

A child that age probably would weigh roughly 14-20 pounds. I know eagles can carry lambs, which might weigh roughly 8-10 pounds at an upper end. I'm thinking the child was too heavy for the bird to get aloft. A child is rather stocky, and makes a small-looking "bump" compared to a lamb, which would stand taller but being do much thin leg would be light enough to carry off, if about the same apparent size.

The guy did seem to yell in surprise, but it seems he actually filmed the bird carrying the child a bit?

I don't even like to think of an eagle carrying off a baby. If the baby were small enough - God forbid - it would be possible.

 

[Radrook]

That is pretty amazing. And potentially terrible.

A child that age probably would weigh roughly 14-20 pounds. I know eagles can carry lambs, which might weigh roughly 8-10 pounds at an upper end. I'm thinking the child was too heavy for the bird to get aloft. A child is rather stocky, and makes a small-looking "bump" compared to a lamb, which would stand taller but being do much thin leg would be light enough to carry off, if about the same apparent size.

The guy did seem to yell in surprise, but it seems he actually filmed the bird carrying the child a bit?

I don't even like to think of an eagle carrying off a baby. If the baby were small enough - God forbid - it would be possible.

Had it been a large coyote then the outcome would have been very different. Sometimes parental momentary inattention can have horrendous consequences. Reminds me of the kid who fell into the gorilla enclosure at the zoo while his parents were there. Luckily a silverback protected him from possible mischief.

I think that the reason for her seeming inattention is that we as civilized humans don't tend imagine ourselves subject to that kind of sudden predation any longer-especially if we are living in la city. Can't imagine one of our forest-dwelling ancestors being that careless with their offspring.

BTW
When I was born I weighed eight pounds. So if such an eagle would have wanted to, it could have carried me aloft to its nest where I would have served as food for its ravenously hungry brood. Not a particularly pleasant way to die!

Artist's impression of Argentavis (Credit: Deagostini/UIG/Science Photo Library)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Had it been a large coyote then the outcome would have been very different. Sometimes parental momentary inattention can have horrendous consequences. Reminds me of the kid who fell into the gorilla enclosure at the zoo while his parents were there. Luckily a silverback protected him from possible mischief.

I think that the reason for her seeming inattention is that we as civilized humans don't tend imagine ourselves subject to that kind of sudden predation any longer-especially if we are living in la city. Can't imagine one of our forest-dwelling ancestors being that careless with their offspring.

BTW
When I was born I weighed eight pounds. So if such an eagle would have wanted to, it could have carried me aloft to its nest where I would have served as food for its ravenously hungry brood. Not a particularly pleasant way to die!

Artist's impression of Argentavis (Credit: Deagostini/UIG/Science Photo Library)

Yes, got the impression the camera person was just shocked. It would be understandable. Sometimes the brain cannot process what it sees. I was once involved in a HUGE flood where the "backyard" sloped down to a depth of about 15 feet below floor level, and the woods beyond further sloped to a massive containment area. Yet a freak storm and circumstances produced a flood that filled all that in and rose almost to the level of the floors before I saw it, in the dark. (It later rose to come in.) But when I looked outside, I was completely stunned for several seconds. Such a flood was unimaginable. My brain told me the backyard and forest had been raised and paved over (another impossibility, of course) but that the flat, grey surface stretching out of sight was WATER just "did not compute" and I stood there and stared stupidly at it, not comprehending, for probably several seconds before I understood.

It's easy to imagine a child snatched by an eagle seeming equally improbable. We just don't think that way anymore, if we are divorced from more natural circumstances in our lives.

Yes, a newborn is potential prey for a WIDE variety of creatures. Even ants can kill it. Likewise a predator too small to eat the child could still potentially kill it, since the infant cannot escape at all. Almost any kind of creature is potentially lethal to an infant. We are born incredibly fragile.

That's a horrible thing to think on though. And I suppose why I (like almost all mothers) was fiercely protective of my daughter as a newborn.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The eagle video is faaaake.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The eagle video is faaaake.

Well, that's good!

Actually, it does seem far fetched. I've lived in rural areas and kept farm animals a lot. I remember one time a large red-tail hawk swooped down and tried to snatch some chickens I was watching (common prey for them) but what shocked me was that the hawk came to close to ME that I could almost have touched it - you don't have an appreciation for how huge those wingspans are until you stand inches away from one in flight! But I was very surprised the hawk would do that. In the same area, we had lots of bald eagles. However, I never actually worried about the eagles stealing livestock because they simply avoided such close contact with humans, not even trying to grab them from the yard if I wasn't out there, despite that I saw them wheeling overhead hunting frequently.

An eagle actually trying to steal a child "doesn't compute" as I said above.

I'm glad to know it's a fake. That makes more sense honestly.

But they WILL steal young lambs from open pasture, far from buildings or people.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Durango has it right. The square cube law puts a harsh limit on things.

Perhaps the correct question is "how many birds would you need to carry us aloft?"

And the next most important question is, "Are they African swallows or European swallows?"

An African swallow can carry a one pound coconut. So if you constructed a light frame to distribute the weight evenly, and could train the swallows to work together, it wouldn't take much more than 200 African swallows.

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? - YouTube

 

[Radrook]

Yes, got the impression the camera person was just shocked. It would be understandable. Sometimes the brain cannot process what it sees. I was once involved in a HUGE flood where the "backyard" sloped down to a depth of about 15 feet below floor level, and the woods beyond further sloped to a massive containment area. Yet a freak storm and circumstances produced a flood that filled all that in and rose almost to the level of the floors before I saw it, in the dark. (It later rose to come in.) But when I looked outside, I was completely stunned for several seconds. Such a flood was unimaginable. My brain told me the backyard and forest had been raised and paved over (another impossibility, of course) but that the flat, grey surface stretching out of sight was WATER just "did not compute" and I stood there and stared stupidly at it, not comprehending, for probably several seconds before I understood.

It's easy to imagine a child snatched by an eagle seeming equally improbable. We just don't think that way anymore, if we are divorced from more natural circumstances in our lives.

Yes, a newborn is potential prey for a WIDE variety of creatures. Even ants can kill it. Likewise a predator too small to eat the child could still potentially kill it, since the infant cannot escape at all. Almost any kind of creature is potentially lethal to an infant. We are born incredibly fragile.

That's a horrible thing to think on though. And I suppose why I (like almost all mothers) was fiercely protective of my daughter as a newborn.

That delayed reaction is definitely understandable. I have had it happen to me several times as well and in one case could have caused my death as I almost drove over a cliff under the impression that the paved road that I was on kept going in that direction. It was night and the place was not well illuminated. Neither were there any barriers placed to prevent such a mistake.
Only my brief pause just at the cliff's edge to look around and get my bearings prevented that disaster.

True about newborns-extremely helpless and vulnerable. Being so small it would take that many ant bites to kill it. In certain African countries it's the chimps who have become notorious fort=n snatching babies from mothers' arms and trying to eat them alive as they do with monkeys. One was snatched from next to a low level window. In one case the mother fled and left the baby because the chimp was threatening to kill her as well. One baby survived but its face was deformed. Truly sad!

 

[Radrook]

The eagle video is faaaake.

Yep! Fooled me! Here are the culprits.
Video of eagle snatching baby is fake, school says

 

[~Anastasia~]

That delayed reaction is definitely understandable. I have had it happen to me several times as well and in one case could have caused my death as I almost drove over a cliff under the impression that the paved road that I was on kept going in that direction. It was night and the place was not well illuminated. Neither were there any barriers placed to prevent such a mistake.
Only my brief pause just at the cliff's edge to look around and get my bearings prevented that disaster.

True about newborns-extremely helpless and vulnerable. Being so small it would take that many ant bites to kill it. In certain African countries it's the chimps who have become notorious fort=n snatching babies from mothers' arms and trying to eat them alive as they do with monkeys. One was snatched from next to a low level window. In one case the mother fled and left the baby because the chimp was threatening to kill her as well. One baby survived but its face was deformed. Truly sad!

Lord have mercy!


Can we talk about flying on bird's backs again? Maybe we can develop a shrink ray and outfit parrots with saddles. They are pretty good at manipulating with beaks and feet too ... I'm sure there could be other cool aspects to that.

 

[Radrook]

Lord have mercy!


Can we talk about flying on bird's backs again? Maybe we can develop a shrink ray and outfit parrots with saddles. They are pretty good at manipulating with beaks and feet too ... I'm sure there could be other cool aspects to that.

My apology for being too explicit in my descriptions. True, only shrinkage would make that possible. A real shame since it looks like so much fun in the way they show it in the film Avatar.


BTW
Parrots are a good choice! They don't seem as wild as those other birds!
Also, do you notice how people don't look quite at ease when they are near ostriches? I don't blame them. Those birds seem always one moment away from pecking at someone. Have this kind of crazy avian facial expression which makes one cringe.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My apology for being too explicit in my descriptions.

No problem. Yep, getting a bit much for me.

True, only shrinkage would make that possible. A real shame since it looks like so much fun in the way they show it in the film Avatar.


BTW
Parrots are a good choice! They don't seem as wild as those other birds!

I like parrots and hookbills in general. They can be so talented with those beaks and feet. I used to have a cockatoo that would open various slots on her cage and escape, or dump her food. I tried dog clips, but she figured those out. I tried carabiners with hex screw tops, and she opened one then tightened it back so hard I never could get it back off the cage. So I tried a padlock ... and she figured out how to turn the key and escaped for the day. Nothing is safe from those little hands.

Also, do you notice how people don't look quite at ease when they are near ostriches? I don't blame them. Those birds seem always one moment away from pecking at someone. Have this kind of crazy avian facial expression which makes one cringe.

I don't trust ostriches. I think they might see anything, including maybe body parts as food, and try to nip it off. Funny, that same crazed kind of expression reminds me of mama silky hens, which I often use to incubate eggs. We say they are giving us "the stink eye" but they can get pretty ugly about messing with their eggs, especially considering they are generally very docile creatures.

(This isn't mine - my photos are in my old phone, but it's a good likeness)

 

[Radrook]

No problem. Yep, getting a bit much for me.

I like parrots and hookbills in general. They can be so talented with those beaks and feet. I used to have a cockatoo that would open various slots on her cage and escape, or dump her food. I tried dog clips, but she figured those out. I tried carabiners with hex screw tops, and she opened one then tightened it back so hard I never could get it back off the cage. So I tried a padlock ... and she figured out how to turn the key and escaped for the day. Nothing is safe from those little hands.



I don't trust ostriches. I think they might see anything, including maybe body parts as food, and try to nip it off. Funny, that same crazed kind of expression reminds me of mama silky hens, which I often use to incubate eggs. We say they are giving us "the stink eye" but they can get pretty ugly about messing with their eggs, especially considering they are generally very docile creatures.

View attachment 195508

(This isn't mine - my photos are in my old phone, but it's a good likeness)

That bird in the picture does look angry and ready to peck. Is that a mama silky hen? But it still looks more sane than an ostrich to me because the intention is clear. In contrast an ostrich seems somehow our of control. Calm one moment and suddenly bam! Maybe its the small head perched precariously on that long neck that disorients it? Although it does manage to keep it very steady while it is running, In fact, the only time it looks sane is when it is running. Otherwise that small head is swiveling in unpredictable angles. Yikes!

I had two parakeets and they are my favorite birds to keep as pets. That's why if I could be miniaturized I would choose to ride one. The only thing that worriers me a little is that they seem to need a lot of flapping just to stay aloft. So perhaps a smoother ride can be obtained on a bird that is a glider such as the albatross.

BTW
The bird that you describe was actually using its claws to do all those escape things instead of its beak? I have heard that they repeat words without knowing their meaning. Is that true? Or do they actually know what they are saying sometimes? Judging by what you just told me I would suspect that they do.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That bird in the picture does look angry and ready to peck. Is that a mama silky hen? But it still looks more sane than an ostrich to me because the intention is clear. In contrast an ostrich seems somehow our of control. Calm one moment and suddenly bam! Maybe its the small head perched precariously on that long neck that disorients it? Although it does manage to keep it very steady while it is running, In fact, the only time it looks sane is when it is running. Otherwise that small head is swiveling in unpredictable angles. Yikes!

I had two parakeets and they are my favorite birds to keep as pets. That's why if I could be miniaturized I would choose to ride one. The only thing that worriers me a little is that they seem to need a lot of flapping just to stay aloft. So perhaps a smoother ride can be obtained on a bird that is a glider such as the albatross.

BTW
The bird that you describe was actually using its claws to do all those escape things instead of its beak? I have heard that they repeat words without knowing their meaning. Is that true? Or do they actually know what they are saying sometimes? Judging by what you just told me I would suspect that they do.

Ostriches do seem very unpredictable. But except for zoos and a farm visit or two, I don't have much experience. I was once offered a pair of young emus to raise with my mixed flock, but had a feeling they would create too many problems or liability and passed on the offer.

My bird used her beak and feet together. Usually the feet to bring it to the beak, and turn things about, but the beak was the powerhouse.

They are quite intelligent. Estimates have compared them to a child of anywhere between 2 and 6 years old, usually. My cockatoo learned what many words meant, because she'd heard them in context. One of her tricks used to be to turn the light off, then scream bloody murder wanting me to come turn it back on (though she was capable of doing that too). Hearing my reaction to her mischief, she started switching off the light, screaming, and then either yelling or muttering (depending on her mood), "The da** light's out!" (It was many years ago and I cursed mildly in my impatience back then.)

She also really liked to say "Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad DOG!" when the dog tried to do something wrong and I wasn't in the room. She would also crook her head sideways coquettishly, beckon with one curving toe, and sweetly wheedle "come heerrreeee, commmeeee heeerrrrreeee!" with a somewhat evil intent to someone she was unhappy with.

At least one experiment attempted to teach a parrot the meaning of the words he used. African greys are supposed to be some of the most intelligent, and a parrot named Alex was chosen. I used to follow his progress. Sadly, he suddenly died at a relatively young age. It would have been interesting to see how he progressed if he had lived.

Alex (parrot) - Wikipedia

 

[Radrook]

Ostriches do seem very unpredictable. But except for zoos and a farm visit or two, I don't have much experience. I was once offered a pair of young emus to raise with my mixed flock, but had a feeling they would create too many problems or liability and passed on the offer.

My bird used her beak and feet together. Usually the feet to bring it to the beak, and turn things about, but the beak was the powerhouse.

They are quite intelligent. Estimates have compared them to a child of anywhere between 2 and 6 years old, usually. My cockatoo learned what many words meant, because she'd heard them in context. One of her tricks used to be to turn the light off, then scream bloody murder wanting me to come turn it back on (though she was capable of doing that too). Hearing my reaction to her mischief, she started switching off the light, screaming, and then either yelling or muttering (depending on her mood), "The da** light's out!" (It was many years ago and I cursed mildly in my impatience back then.)

She also really liked to say "Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad DOG!" when the dog tried to do something wrong and I wasn't in the room. She would also crook her head sideways coquettishly, beckon with one curving toe, and sweetly wheedle "come heerrreeee, commmeeee heeerrrrreeee!" with a somewhat evil intent to someone she was unhappy with.

At least one experiment attempted to teach a parrot the meaning of the words he used. African greys are supposed to be some of the most intelligent, and a parrot named Alex was chosen. I used to follow his progress. Sadly, he suddenly died at a relatively young age. It would have been interesting to see how he progressed if he had lived.

Alex (parrot) - Wikipedia

Those are really fascinating experiences! Thanx for the link as well. Didn't know that parrots could be so smart.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Those are really fascinating experiences! Thanx for the link as well. Didn't know that parrots could be so smart.

Yes, Alex was fascinating. I've always had some interest in animal experiments geared to learning and communication. And I like observing my own, and seeing how they ommunicate with each other and sometimes with us. My favorite time in life was a little hobby farm where I had llamas, goats, rabbits, geese, guineas, ducks, muscovies, chickens, and then my pets. There were interactions and "visits" from other animals as well, especially a mule I shared a fence line with and a herd of cows, local horses who tended to be fascinated with the llamas, sheep, wild ducks, and more. Maybe it was the variety of animals we had, but so many other animals would escape and and end up at our place. Living in farm country, that meant a lot of animals. I felt a little like Dr. Doolittle at times, lol. My animal chores were about 6-8 hours most days because I liked to take my time, then I'd spend the rest of the time either observing them or interacting with them, when I didn't have to pull weeds.

I also tended to get a lot of children coming by wanting to meet the animals. If I'd been smart and had the opportunity, I'd have turned it into a farm people could visit as a business.

These kinds of things fascinate me.

 

[Radrook]

Yes, Alex was fascinating. I've always had some interest in animal experiments geared to learning and communication. And I like observing my own, and seeing how they ommunicate with each other and sometimes with us. My favorite time in life was a little hobby farm where I had llamas, goats, rabbits, geese, guineas, ducks, muscovies, chickens, and then my pets. There were interactions and "visits" from other animals as well, especially a mule I shared a fence line with and a herd of cows, local horses who tended to be fascinated with the llamas, sheep, wild ducks, and more. Maybe it was the variety of animals we had, but so many other animals would escape and and end up at our place. Living in farm country, that meant a lot of animals. I felt a little like Dr. Doolittle at times, lol. My animal chores were about 6-8 hours most days because I liked to take my time, then I'd spend the rest of the time either observing them or interacting with them, when I didn't have to pull weeds.

I also tended to get a lot of children coming by wanting to meet the animals. If I'd been smart and had the opportunity, I'd have turned it into a farm people could visit as a business.

These kinds of things fascinate me.

Animals fascinate me in a similar way. I would love to personally have the privilege of interacting with the great apes such as the bonobo, gorilla, and Orangutans. Perhaps my intense interest is that I see such creatures as I would view aliens from another world-mysteriously enigmatic and a puzzle to be explored and maybe solved. It's as if there is something hidden going on which we have as yet not been able to clearly define by establishing clear parameters to separate us as humans from such creatures.


Perhaps one of mankind's major mistakes is feeling as if we are totally above all other animals to the point of perceiving them as totally unthinking beasts primarily subject to unreasoning urges or instinct. The real situation is obviously not that clear-cut since there are areas where animal faculties obviously do merge with ours. Your examples and other examples that I have read about tend to confirm this.

BTW
I mentioned my intention to visit the Philadelphia zoo and request to get more familiar with some of the animals there. When I mentioned it to a family member I was reminded about how strange things tend to always happen to me. Suggested that one of the animals might just coincidentally suddenly go berserk in response to me presence. So I have wisely declined.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Animals fascinate me in a similar way. I would love to personally have the privilege of interacting with the great apes such as the bonobo, gorilla, and Orangutans. Perhaps my intense interest is that I see such creatures as I would view aliens from another world-mysteriously enigmatic and a puzzle to be explored and maybe solved. It's as if there is something hidden going on which we have as yet not been able to clearly define by establishing clear parameters to separate us as humans from such creatures.


Perhaps one of mankind's major mistakes is feeling as if we are totally above all other animals to the point of perceiving them as totally unthinking beasts primarily subject to unreasoning urges or instinct. The real situation is obviously not that clear-cut since there are areas where animal faculties obviously do merge with ours. Your examples and other examples that I have read about tend to confirm this.

BTW
I mentioned my intention to visit the Philadelphia zoo and request to get more familiar with some of the animals there. When I mentioned it to a family member I was reminded about how strange things tend to always happen to me. Suggested that one of the animals might just coincidentally suddenly go berserk in response to me presence. So I have wisely declined.

Hmmmmm.

I've had some enjoyable visits to various contained creatures in some places, but just as part of the general public. A dolphin once created a little game to play with me (as I'm sure it did with others too), and I've sat gazing into the faces of gorillas and orangutans from a few inches away. Nothing much I can take away from the experiences though.

I know man has long tried to define what sets us apart from animals. Tool use, tool creation, emotion, altruism, language, abstract thought, self-awareness, thoughts of the afterlife. Most barriers fall when seriously challenged. I think God has given animals much of what we have, proper to their own place.

I do think we have a different sort of spirit, but I think that would be hard to define and probably impossible to measure any aspect of. I don't worry about it. I believe mankind is special in God's creation, but I'm not threatened by likeness discovered between us and animals. It needn't diminish man, to elevate animals in various proper ways.

And God cares for all of creation. We are like Him in that way when do as well.

It is all quite interesting though.