How large would a bird need to be to carry us aloft?

[Radrook]

No. I would think it was angels. But unlike a lot of churches I do not see that it had to be evil angels.

Yes some had kids. The kids apparently did well with an angel parent also. No need to invoke some ruination of mankind as a result of that particular romantic business.

So you view them as still holy even though they did what they did? If so that goes completely contrary to how they are described in Jude and by the Apostle Peter

2 Peter 2:4 --10
4 For if God did not spare u angels when they sinned, but v cast them into hell 1 and committed them to chains 2 of gloomy darkness w to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but x preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought y a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by z turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, a making them an example of b what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Jude 1
6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain, but abandoned their proper dwelling, He keeps under darkness, in eternal chains for judgment on that great day. 7In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darkness until their judgment;

Since their leaving heaven and their interest in women is compared to the unnatural lust after strange flesh of the sodomites and their behavior worthy of punishment, I can't share that positive opinion about them that you express..

 

[dad]

So you view them as still holy even though they did what they did? If so that goes completely contrary to how they are described in Jude and by the Apostle Peter






Since their leaving heaven and their interest in women is compared to the unnatural lust after strange flesh of the sodomites and their behavior worthy of punishment, I can't share that positive opinion about them that you express..

No. They left their estate when they followed Satan rather than God. It was not when some got married and had kids. Nowhere does it say the angels who married and had kids was some bizarre unnatural lust. It wasn't angels living in Sodom FYI. Also, neither children nor marriage is dishonorable or evil, or unholy!

 

[Radrook]

No. They left their estate when they followed Satan rather than God. It was not when some got married and had kids. Nowhere does it say the angels who married and had kids was some bizarre unnatural lust. It wasn't angels living in Sodom FYI. Also, neither children nor marriage is dishonorable or evil, or unholy!

Their behavior is clearly compared to Sodom and Gomorrah and reference is made of their going after strange flesh. Leaving their proper place of dwelling in heaven, for which they were specifically designed, is a contributing factor for the punishment described.


BTW
Also, please note that marriage was not invented for angels but is only for mankind in order to fill the earth. In fact, Jesus clearly tells us that angels are NOT supposed to marry.

Matthew 22:30 ►
New International Version
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

I never claimed that the angels who were sent to contact Abraham engaged in any sexual activity. Neither did I say that the people dwelling there were rebel angels. I merely pointed out that Jude compares the angelic actions towards women during the days of Noah as similar to the homosexual activity that was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and which the Bible considers abnormal. That's why it is classified as going after strange flesh. Strange in the sense that a man is not supposed to have sex with a man and an angel is not supposed to have sex with a human. It is an unlawful-sinful mixing of kinds. In fact, that is the reason why the Earth needed cleansing. To assure the genetic purity of mankind which was essential to bring into play the Christ via Abraham's seed.

That is my understanding and obviously it differs drastically from yours. So I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on those issues.

 

[dad]

Their behavior is clearly compared to Sodom and Gomorrah and reference is made of their going after strange flesh. Leaving their proper place of dwelling in heaven, for which they were specifically designed, is a contributing factor for the punishment described.

No it isn't. The angels that left their estate and rebelled are not connected to the ones that had a family life before the flood with wives and kids. If they were evil I doubt they would have married or had kids! Unless I am missing something, and there is a connection somewhere in the bible...chapter and verse please. It is not in Jude.

BTW
Also, please note that marriage was not invented for angels but is only for mankind in order to fill the earth. In fact, Jesus clearly tells us that angels are NOT supposed to marry.

Says who? The angels IN HEAVEN do not marry and neither will we THEN. But that doesn't means we won't have sex that I can tell.

I never claimed that the angels who were sent to contact Abraham engaged in any sexual activity. Neither did I say that the people dwelling there were rebel angels. I merely pointed out that Jude compares the angelic actions towards women during the days of Noah

? Where??? What verse in Jude?

as similar to the homosexual activity that was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and which the Bible considers abnormal.

That was evil, but totally no connected to sons of god marrying and having kids pre flood.

That's why it is classified as going after strange flesh. Strange in the sense that a man is not supposed to have sex with a man and an angel is not supposed to have sex with a human.

Says who...that at the time of Noah the sons of god were evil?

It is an unlawful-sinful mixing of kinds.

What law? Since angels were not a created kind on earth, you can't use Genesis...what else you got?

In fact, that is the reason why the Earth needed cleansing.

Old wives tale.

To assure the genetic purity of mankind which was essential to bring into play the Christ via Abraham's seed.

Popular misconception...where is the Scriptural proof?

That is my understanding and obviously it differs drastically from yours. So I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on those issues.

I know...I've heard John Macarthur and others say such things. But I see no proof.

I think churches are hung up on sex as evil or some such.

 

[JackRT]

To be able to carry a human being aloft, a bird would have to have an immense wingspan and the musculature to work them. This brings us into the "square/cube law". An object's weight increases as the cube of its size. That is, double the size and the weight increases eight times. On the other hand, a bone's strength increases as the square of its cross section. That is, double the size and the bone strength only increase by a factor of four. This limits severely how large animals can be.

 

[Radrook]

To be able to carry a human being aloft, a bird would have to have an immense wingspan and the musculature to work them. This brings us into the "square/cube law". An object's weight increases as the cube of its size. That is, double the size and the weight increases eight times. On the other hand, a bone's strength increases as the square of its cross section. That is, double the size and the bone strength only increase by a factor of four. This limits severely how large animals can be.

So the bone becomes progressively weaker in relation to the increased mass. So I guess that means that we can't expect to find birds that flew much bigger than the ones already discovered correct?

World's largest flying bird was twice as big as any alive today

 

[JackRT]

So the bone becomes progressively weaker in relation to the increased mass. So I guess that means that we can't expect to find birds that flew much bigger than the ones already discovered correct?

World's largest flying bird was twice as big as any alive today

That is a good summary .

 

[Strathos]

If Pterosaurs were still around they probably could

 

[JustHereToTalk]

It could be carried by an African swallow...

 

[Radrook]

It could be carried by an African swallow...

What could be carried by an African Swallow?

 

[Radrook]

Perhaps the only way to get a human aloft via bird power is to use a flock of birds. For example, it was stated earlier that a Swallow is capable of lifting a one pound coconut and that two hundred of them would easily be capable of lifting a two-hundred pound man. Naturally the larger the bird the greater the lifting power so the less birds needed for the task.

Here we have female eagles described as capable of lifting up to 3 pounds.
Lifting Capacity of Eagles - Hancock Wildlife Foundation

If indeed true, then that means that you would only need approx. 66 or 67 birds to carry a 200-pound-man instead of the two-hundred needed for swallows.

But unfortunately there is a catch!

Eagles are predators but they have a very small lifting capacity. Many times I have described our experiments and field observations on what eagles can lift.

Generally a male can lift about 1.5 pounds and a female up to 2.5 to 3 pounds -- the latter if there is a good headwind. However, this is not even lifting this weight for more than a few 100 yards and not necessarily up to a nest.

Notice that they need a headwind and that lifting distance nor vertical distance the isn't much.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-maximum-weight-a-bird-can-carry-while-flying

Plate from "The Arabian Nights", 'The Roc which fed its young on elephants', "The Second Voyage of Sinbad the Sailor" (Hodder & Stoughton)

By Charles Maurice Detmold (1883-1908) - Chat Boards, Public Domain, File:Edward Julius Detmold49.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

[PsychoSarah]

So the bone becomes progressively weaker in relation to the increased mass. So I guess that means that we can't expect to find birds that flew much bigger than the ones already discovered correct?

World's largest flying bird was twice as big as any alive today

The bones don't become weaker, but rather more strain is put upon them. Birds and other flying organisms have a limit on how heavy they can be and still fly, so their bones can't be very dense. Since larger animals need stronger and denser bones to support their bodies, this limits how large birds can be. However, the larger bird species, such as Argentavis magnificens, could probably have carried an adult human into the air a bit, considering its size http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/images/species/a/argentavis-size.jpg

The largest pterosaurs probably could carry an adult human a great distance without much trouble https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d8675df89046e6c09437c168ed39b5f3-c

 

[morse86]

There is no such bird like that.

Rent-a-$cientists seeking public tax payer grants dig up 1 single bone in the dirt and they hire some artists to render the whole "creature". This is literally how it works. All of the dinosaurs are based on 1 or 2 bones. That is it.

They have to "recreate" the whole creature based on 1 or 2 bones. This isn't science. When you go to the museum and see these replicas, it's just artist renderings based off 1 or 2 bones.

 

[Radrook]

There is no such bird like that.

Rent-a-$cientists seeking public tax payer grants dig up 1 single bone in the dirt and they hire some artists to render the whole "creature". This is literally how it works. All of the dinosaurs are based on 1 or 2 bones. That is it.

They have to "recreate" the whole creature based on 1 or 2 bones. This isn't science. When you go to the museum and see these replicas, it's just artist renderings based off 1 or 2 bones.

We assume that logical educated assumptions can be made about a creature based on several skeletal remains. After all, the science of forensics is applied to fossil interpretation and it is considered very valuable in reaching conclusions about people in criminal cases, such as height, age, built, race, illnesses, where only a few bones and teeth might be available. That same skill is applied to fossil remains.


BTW
This isn't to say that fraud isn't sometimes involved for the reasons you mention. There are notorious cases where such fraud has been exposed.

Evolution Fraud and Myths

 

[JackRT]

This isn't to say that fraud isn't sometimes involved for the reasons you mention. There are notorious cases where such fraud has been exposed.

And, in every case that I am aware of, that fraud has been detected and corrected by scientists. This is largely because the scientific community is far more skeptical and demanding of evidence than the general public and particularly the media. An interesting case in point was the public announcement of cold fusion in 1989 by Fleischman and Pons. They didn't even wait to submit their research to a recognized scientific journal for evaluation by their peers.. This was pounced on with great excitement by the media as a safe and clean solution to the world's energy problems. I must admit to have been excited and optimistic about it myself. However within weeks scientists working independently all over the world had thoroughly debunked it.

 

[Blackmarch]

You might be able to get one large enough to be able to glide from a high point to a low point using some structural trickery... But without reducing gravity, increasing atmospheric pressure, coming up with a much more lightweight but far stronger bone material and structure, cominng up with lighter and more powerful muscles, and/or a better energy processing and storage system, there just simply won't be any flying animal that can fly carrying an average human any distance.

 

[Radrook]

And, in every case that I am aware of, that fraud has been detected and corrected by scientists. This is largely because the scientific community is far more skeptical and demanding of evidence than the general public and particularly the media. An interesting case in point was the public announcement of cold fusion in 1989 by Fleischman and Pons. They didn't even wait to submit their research to a recognized scientific journal for evaluation by their peers.. This was pounced on with great excitement by the media as a safe and clean solution to the world's energy problems. I must admit to have been excited and optimistic about it myself. However within weeks scientists working independently all over the world had thoroughly debunked it.

I also recall feeling elated about that cold-fusion discovery announcement and greatly disappointed when the claim could not be confirmed as true via being replicated under identical conditions in other laboratories.

Of course we tend to trust in the veracity of such claims because we assume that those involved are meticulously triple checking for accuracy before exposing themselves to possible ridicule.

So in many cases it isn't really that we are gullible. It is that we tend to trust those who are trained in the scientific method to responsibly adhere to its strict principles in relation to accuracy.

 

[Radrook]

You might be able to get one large enough to be able to glide from a high point to a low point using some structural trickery... But without reducing gravity, increasing atmospheric pressure, coming up with a much more lightweight but far stronger bone material and structure, cominng up with lighter and more powerful muscles, and/or a better energy processing and storage system, there just simply won't be any flying animal that can fly carrying an average human any distance.

Yes, birds either modern or prehistoric just aren't heavy enough or strong enough. But I am not convinced about all flying reptiles. For example, I just can't imagine this monster dropping like a rock if I saddled him up and attempted to ride him.

Size of Arambourgiania (far right) compared to a human, Tyrannosaurus, and Balaur

By Mark P. Witton - Azhdarchid pterosaurs: water-trawling pelican mimics or "terrestrial stalkers"? - Acta Palaeontologica Polonica, CC BY 2.0, File:Arambourgiania.png - Wikimedia Commons

This beast had a wingspan of of 12–13 metres (39–43 feet),

 

[JackRT]

Yes, birds either modern or prehistoric just aren't heavy enough or strong enough. But I am not convinced about all flying reptiles. For example, I just can't imagine this monster dropping like a rock if I saddled him up and attempted to ride him.

Size of Arambourgiania (far right) compared to a human, Tyrannosaurus, and Balaur

By Mark P. Witton - Azhdarchid pterosaurs: water-trawling pelican mimics or "terrestrial stalkers"? - Acta Palaeontologica Polonica, CC BY 2.0, File:Arambourgiania.png - Wikimedia Commons

This beast had a wingspan of of 12–13 metres (39–43 feet),

Its ability to walk quadrapedally is indicative that in most cases it would have to climb to some height in order to launch itself on another soaring flight. Flapping alone would not likely be able to sustain flight for more than a few short hops.

 

[Radrook]

Its ability to walk quadrapedally is indicative that in most cases it would have to climb to some height in order to launch itself on another soaring flight. Flapping alone would not likely be able to sustain flight for more than a few short hops.

I was starting to consider it my favorite animal to bring back from extinction. But if indeed it is going to go around waddling on all fours and struggling to climb hills in order to be able to jump off and half fall half glide down then forget it.