How I know there is no God

[phsyxx]

Okay, that was a low blow, even for you. Nobody really knows the color of Adam and Eve. Not for certain. Besides, I don't see how this is relevant. If you have a point, make it now, instead of trying to trip someone up with such an obviously baited question.

I knew that would be the type of response I was likely to receive, and that's why I reassured everyone that is was indeed relevant -

as, if you are to use the book of Genesis as a way of arguing for a designer in the world - then you only have to look at the impossible position Adam and Eve would present the world.

LME:
Thinking backwards from the current-day state in variation of colour, race, ethinicity and all other types of aspects of human civilization -
back to a time when Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of Eden.
When I ask you "what colour were Adam and Eve", I'm not really asking you to answer that question directly. Rather, I'm posing a problem.
If you think about it, it doesn't matter what your answer is - as whatever offspring Adam and Eve produced, the variation in the current society would have to be accounted for by means of genetic variation.
Descending from one couple of one colour which has produced a society of 6 billion people of all different types shows the impossibility of
A) Denying the theory of Evolution
B) Taking the story of Adam and Eve as literal truth.


And that's why I asked that question.

 

[Crujir]

"Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you."

"You receive not because you ASK not."

Kind of explains itself. You have to seek God whole-heartedly, wanting to find Him. Through science or not, He can be found.

And about the different cultures and races, its like I said, during the Babel incident, the word of God says that He scattered the people and confused their languages. There is an explanation for everything in the Bible. If you want to prove the Bible wrong, then read the whole thing and quit making assumptions at face value.

By the way, I noticed that nobody, not even Wiccan, had a "logical" explanation to my post about saying Jesus is Lord. If you are going to combat the Bible, then combat everything that is thrown out there; don't just fight the parts you think you deceive people into thinking is a lie. Those of you faithless cannot say Jesus is Lord. If you can, you believe. There is no way around it.

Your conscience convicts you.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

By the way, I noticed that nobody, not even Wiccan, had a "logical" explanation to my post about saying Jesus is Lord. If you are going to combat the Bible, then combat everything that is thrown out there; don't just fight the parts you think you deceive people into thinking is a lie. Those of you faithless cannot say Jesus is Lord. If you can, you believe. There is no way around it.

Your conscience convicts you.

I'm flattered

You know what, its my turn to go off on a tangent.

Can any of you faithless say "Jesus is Lord" in front of a crowd of people, and sound serious about it?

Depends on the crowd. If you say it to a bunch of atheists, you'd be laughed off the stage. If you say it to Evangelicals, you'll get applause of biblical proportions.

The answer to this question alone will be enough to convict you of the truth. If you can, then you are not an atheist; you believe. If you can't, then the word of God still proves itself, for the word says that "No man can confess Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." Therefore if you can do it, you believe. If you can't, then the Bible is still right no matter what you say.

Noone disagrees that the Bible is right sometimes. Noone says that the Bible is completely false. We know, for instance, that Egypt does exist, that Pharaohs did exist, that the Temple did exist, etc.
However, to infer that the entire Bible is right just because some of it is right, is just idiotic.
Consider the following excerpt from the first chapter of my Holy Scripture:

"1 All Wiccan_Child says is true, unequivicably so. 2 Also, the Moon reflects light from the Sun".

Since HS 1:2 is true, is it reasonable to conclude that the completely unrelated verse, HS 1:1, is also true? No. Likewise, the Bible should not be considered true just because some of it is. The entire Bible may be 100% true (literally, metaphorically, etc), but we cannot infer this just by proving one or two passages.

 

[Crujir]

I'm flattered


Depends on the crowd. If you say it to a bunch of atheists, you'd be laughed off the stage. If you say it to Evangelicals, you'll get applause of biblical proportions.


Noone disagrees that the Bible is right sometimes. Noone says that the Bible is completely false. We know, for instance, that Egypt does exist, that Pharaohs did exist, that the Temple did exist, etc.
However, to infer that the entire Bible is right just because some of it is right, is just idiotic.
Consider the following excerpt from the first chapter of my Holy Scripture:

"1 All Wiccan_Child says is true, unequivicably so. 2 Also, the Moon reflects light from the Sun".

Since HS 1:2 is true, is it reasonable to conclude that the completely unrelated verse, HS 1:1, is also true? No. Likewise, the Bible should not be considered true just because some of it is. The entire Bible may be 100% true (literally, metaphorically, etc), but we cannot infer this just by proving one or two passages.

Glad to flatter you my friend;

In all seriousness, no sarcasm here, I do admire your analytical personality.

But this has nothing to do with the specific crowd one speaks in front of; if the Holy Spirit is not touching you, you cannot say it. Even if it is in the middle of church. ESPECIALLY around those who know that you don't believe in it. Pride gets in the way; one would deny it so fast you'd think he forgot to breath. Either that or just find a way around actually saying it to see if he can prove a point (Don't worry that is not a direct reference to anyone).

Also, parts of the Bible being correct as you say... a work in the spirit is not the same as whether or not Egypt exists. This is a matter of truth and one's conscience; not of countries and cultures. ANY book can say that a country exists and it be true, but that doesn't mean the rest of the book is true. And yes that is basically a re-statement of what you said, BUT, once again, can you stand up in front of a crowd and confess Jesus as Lord?

The Bible stands.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

But this has nothing to do with the specific crowd one speaks in front of; if the Holy Spirit is not touching you, you cannot say it. Even if it is in the middle of church. ESPECIALLY around those who know that you don't believe in it. Pride gets in the way; one would deny it so fast you'd think he forgot to breath. Either that or just find a way around actually saying it to see if he can prove a point (Don't worry that is not a direct reference to anyone).

So what do you expect the difference to be between a True Believer™ saying it, and a faker? Could this be the objective measurement for 'Christian-ness'?

Also, parts of the Bible being correct as you say... a work in the spirit is not the same as whether or not Egypt exists. This is a matter of truth and one's conscience; not of countries and cultures. ANY book can say that a country exists and it be true, but that doesn't mean the rest of the book is true. And yes that is basically a re-statement of what you said, BUT, once again, can you stand up in front of a crowd and confess Jesus as Lord?

I'd bet money on Darren Brown convincing a crowd. He is a staunch sceptic and atheist, but very good at his illusions.

The Bible stands.

Perhaps, but what does it stand for? Some agree with Ussher and say it implies a 6000-10000 year old Earth (For Ussher, it is 6003 as of next month). Others do not take it completely literally, instead focussing on the message (love trumps all, believe in Christ and get into Heaven, etc) instead of the specifics. Still others disagree on what the Bible is: does the Apocrypha count?
And when all that's said and done, there's still the issue of whether it is true.

 

[phsyxx]

"Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you."

By the way, I noticed that nobody, not even Wiccan, had a "logical" explanation to my post about saying Jesus is Lord. If you are going to combat the Bible, then combat everything that is thrown out there; don't just fight the parts you think you deceive people into thinking is a lie. Those of you faithless cannot say Jesus is Lord. If you can, you believe. There is no way around it.

Your conscience convicts you.

I am not trying to combat the Bible. I'm trying to discuss with you our differing points of view. I'd appreciate it if you stop disregarding out of hand what I say.
Just because someone doesn't necessarily have the same expertise in one particular area as you doesn't make them stupid, and doesn't mean that they are making assumptions.
Nor is it nice or in any way pleasant when someone who disagrees with you believes what you say MUST be nonsense because one holds the belief that one's own view is THE truth, and therefore treats differing opinion and the person from which it derived as such.

 

[phsyxx]

Also, parts of the Bible being correct as you say... a work in the spirit is not the same as whether or not Egypt exists. This is a matter of truth and one's conscience; not of countries and cultures.

I'm afraid Egypt doesn't actually exist.

The area of land which humans have divided and seperated and territorialised between themselves does not make it a solid fact.

Think about it like this - the Romans had to go up to the border between Scotland and England and build Hadrian's Wall.
It wasn't there already - so these "barriers" exist only on maps and in the mind of man.
Whilst men and women are running for the border and jumping over the border-barriers, birds fly over several different countries whilst migrating, and they don't seem to obey this universal law of human territory.


So yes, there is an area of land which exists, which we as English speakers call 'Egypt' -
but Egypt does not exist.

If this is a matter of truth, as you call it, then you should be concerned with what truths you are dealing with.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So yes, there is an area of land which exists, which we as English speakers call 'Egypt' -
but Egypt does not exist.

What is Egypt if not an area of land? It exists insofar as it is a label for an arbitrary area of land.

 

[Crujir]

So what do you expect the difference to be between a True Believer™ saying it, and a faker? Could this be the objective measurement for 'Christian-ness'?


I'd bet money on Darren Brown convincing a crowd. He is a staunch sceptic and atheist, but very good at his illusions.


Perhaps, but what does it stand for? Some agree with Ussher and say it implies a 6000-10000 year old Earth (For Ussher, it is 6003 as of next month). Others do not take it completely literally, instead focussing on the message (love trumps all, believe in Christ and get into Heaven, etc) instead of the specifics. Still others disagree on what the Bible is: does the Apocrypha count?
And when all that's said and done, there's still the issue of whether it is true.

Here is my point: A true faker CAN'T say it.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Here is my point: A true faker CAN'T say it.

Er... I'm pretty sure they could...

 

[phsyxx]

What is Egypt if not an area of land? It exists insofar as it is a label for an arbitrary area of land.

Exactly - but it doesn't exist outside the mind of man - birds, trees, animals and even the ocean doesn't seem to conform to these territorial borders.

The name Egypt merely expresses from one person to another a concept which has the purpose of directing, guiding, pin-pointing them to a certain area or location.
The concept of Egypt is applied to an area of land - but this place doesn't exist beyond a name and an idea -
the land there could be called anything, and chopped up in any way, but it would still be the same land.

 

[Crujir]

Er... I'm pretty sure they could...

Then I challenge them to go say it. Say it anywhere you want, in front of anyone you want. Say it while truly NOT believing.

"No one can confess Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit." The word of God says it, its a done deal. No way around it.

 

[Crujir]

Exactly - but it doesn't exist outside the mind of man - birds, trees, animals and even the ocean doesn't seem to conform to these territorial borders.

The name Egypt merely expresses from one person to another a concept which has the purpose of directing, guiding, pin-pointing them to a certain area or location.
The concept of Egypt is applied to an area of land - but this place doesn't exist beyond a name and an idea -
the land there could be called anything, and chopped up in any way, but it would still be the same land.

Then on the same token Oregon does not exist as opposed to any other state in the US, because there are grizzly bears in more than one state.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Exactly - but it doesn't exist outside the mind of man - birds, trees, animals and even the ocean doesn't seem to conform to these territorial borders.

The name Egypt merely expresses from one person to another a concept which has the purpose of directing, guiding, pin-pointing them to a certain area or location.
The concept of Egypt is applied to an area of land - but this place doesn't exist beyond a name and an idea -
the land there could be called anything, and chopped up in any way, but it would still be the same land.

No, I'm saying that the land itself is what we call Egypt. There is no physical borders since they are effectively arbitrarily defined. But there is an area of land in Africa that is known as 'Egypt'. The land is what is known as Egypt.

 

[NavyGuy7]

"Children! Children!" he said in jest. "Let's focus on the subject at hand. This is not the time for a Geography lesson."

 

[DailyBlessings]

Then I challenge them to go say it. Say it anywhere you want, in front of anyone you want. Say it while truly NOT believing.

"No one can confess Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit." The word of God says it, its a done deal. No way around it.

Well, my atheist sister just said it. Wasn't struck down by lightning.

 

[Crujir]

Well, my atheist sister just said it. Wasn't struck down by lightning.

Praise God! The Holy spirit touched her

 

[phsyxx]

No, I'm saying that the land itself is what we call Egypt. There is no physical borders since they are effectively arbitrarily defined. But there is an area of land in Africa that is known as 'Egypt'. The land is what is known as Egypt.

Yes.
Exactly.
Now call that area "oobe-doobe" . Doesn't actually change anything does it?
Now draw a line through the middle of it and call one side "west oobe-doobe" and the other "east oobe-doobe".
Doesn't actually change the land or what it is, does it?

The point is, the word "Egypt" isn't a solid thing - it's a term used to express our understanding of an area of land which we have divided mentally and amongst ourselves.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes.
Exactly.
Now call that area "oobe-doobe" . Doesn't actually change anything does it?
Now draw a line through the middle of it and call one side "west oobe-doobe" and the other "east oobe-doobe".
Doesn't actually change the land or what it is, does it?

The point is, the word "Egypt" isn't a solid thing - it's a term used to express our understanding of an area of land which we have divided mentally and amongst ourselves.

Agreed: it is utterly arbitrary. But this does not mean it is non-existant. There is no physical boundry between Egypt and Libya, but humans arbitrarily call one area of land 'Libya', and the other, 'Egypt'. The lands physically exist, but their naming is purely arbitrary.
Arbitrary, I say!

 

[DoubtingThomas29]

Dear Physx,

Not even an evil genius could convince me Egypt does not exist, because I got a globe that shows egypt right on it. I could get a plane ticket take my visa and go to Cairo, and check out the american university there.

Nice try though, but we all know it exists, it is God we are wondering about.

To Cruijur,

I can sound like a total right wing fundamentalist christian and fake out anybody because I know how they think, I just start talking to those bible thumpers totally agree with them, lead them along telling them that Jesus is my lord and Savior he died for me, without him I would burn in hell.

Then I can go on and on about how some people call themselves chrisatian but are not true believers because they don't have saving faith. Which is a faith so strong that I know my name is written in the book of life, and I am ready to see the new jeruslaem come down from heaven as Jesus comes back raises the dead, and discards the goats and keeps the sheep. When he judges the quick and the dead. This faith is a gift from the holy spirit, this is what reveals the truth to us, and not everybody is fortunate to have a faith this strong. It was this same spirit that was so strong in the virgin Mary tha the word became flesh, as the son of God was conceived by the holy spirit in the virgin Mary. He suffered under pontius pilate, was crucified dead and was buried, he descended into hell on the the third day he rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits on the right hand of the father where he shall come again to judge both the living and the dead.

I can totally sound like those guys if I run into one, it makes them feel normal like I am their buddy when I tell them that.

Then usually about four hours later after he has finnally shut up with his sermon, I tell him about some atheist lessons I got in my philosphy class, and talk about the family tree of a house sparrow, and my own family tree and really explain who made who. My parents who if they had decided to not have children would have in effect stop me from ever existing. This is true for their parents and their grand parents. If anywhere in your family tree if it could be undone, then you would not exist. So the next time you see a house sparrow, think of what I am saying here. That house sparrow was not made by God or a fairy or an angle, it was made by it's parents who by sexual selection successfully mated and produce the sparrow that you are looking at. If it's parents had not mated that sparrow would not be there. Further more had it's grand parents had not mated it would not be here, and that is true for you, for me for wiccan for navy guy and for every living thing that is born by sexual reproduction. God doesn't make any of this stuff, it is all a natural process that works on it's own.

The world is the way it is because it is just like that. It wasn't a who that made the universe but a what that made the universe. When you see all those stars out there in a telescope sometime, don't ask if Jesus made them, or Allah, you need to ask what made those stars, and to aswer that, you have to ask how were they made. By what processes did they go under to be made, that is how you figure out there is no God.

I could go on, but I want to hear what you think. Come on now, if you know how these things are being made, then you should know what is making this stuff. From the stars to the birds bees, and sycamore trees.

I got a whole little story on how the Earth was formed in a solar nebula if you want to hear it.

I hope you liked my post, and don't mind me saying that atheists have the truth. We just can't prove it to 100% certainity, but let's face it if we were in a court of law with twelve jurors who were honest scientists, philosophers, and poets, they would have to say we have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the God as describe by the muslims and the christians, just doesn't exist. You can have some doubt about that claim, but it is not a reasonable doubt.