How I know there is no God

[Crujir]

Yet, you can't really disprove him entirely, either. And God gave us all the freedom to choose, "free will". He wants us to come to him not because there's "proof", but because we believe he exists and we want to know him more. He wants us to come "as we are", and have faith in his existence. Granted, I'm not saying you can't try to prove some things in the bible really happened (Just look at the Naked Archeologist!) but if God had wanted us to use science and cold logic to prove his existence, he would have allowed us to do so long ago.

Agreed. He wants us to love Him on a basis of faith; He should not have to prove Himself having been our Creator. Its not His fault we lose faith.

Blessings,

Cru

 

[Crujir]

Take directly from http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=CMH7x6WDz44CFReEhgodySlR9A

Does God exist? Is there proof of God? The following offers candid, straight-forward reasons to believe in the existence of God...

By Marilyn Adamson
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Download PDF version Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.
But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.
When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?
Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.
There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence--arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.

This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14
So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.

 

[SaintPhotios]

I feel that we can know apostori there is no God, all though we can't rule him out all together. I feel that a person can't believe religion is man mad and still believe there is a God. There maybe a remote chance that there is a creator, but really a God would have to be one we could have a personal relationship with and he would have to be all loving and all powerful, which obviously isn't the case when you look at the evidence.

This is how I know there is no God, I look at all the religions that have ever existed, and I know all those religions were just stories that people were making up. I don't see how christianity isn't just a different story, given the fact we can't prove God exists and therefore we can't prove any of Jesus miracles actually happened. So God and the Leprchan fall into the same category, we can't prove Leprchans exist and we can't prove God exist, so there you go the two are one in the same, just about. There is not much difference between the two.

So, if we know Mohammed din't listen to an angle in a cave, and we also know that christianity was an oppressed cult for over two hundred years, which does mean we have no good reason to believe Jesus came back from the dead. Then there is half of the believing world right there rejected, the other half pretty much is just made up too, in my opinion.

So there you go if you know religion is man made, then you know God does not exist, the one follows the other.
We know this apostori by looking at religious claims and all those religions and denominations that are out there.

So what are your thoughts?

I am just basically looking for a philosophical debate where we can agree to disagree, but still have a little fun performing mental exercises about how do we know things, either apostori or apriori about the claim of the existance of God, and how do we know different things too. So if you want to jump in and tell me why you don't believe Islam, or why you don't believe Hinduism then we could talk about that too. The debate should be fun for everybody, try not to get offended. Religious beliefes should be just an opinion pretty much.

If someone wanted to believe their dog made the universe, what is wrong with that? Nothing not a thing, obviously we couldn't take him seriously the way we have to with people who are hindu or muslim, but still it is okay to have weird belief like that. If you wanted to think a Leperchan made the universe and he lives in the woods somewhere, there is nothing wrong with that. It is weird, but there is nothing wrong with it.

So what are your thoughts on all this?

I didn't read the other responses, so what I say may or may not have already been covered.

really a God would have to be one we could have a personal relationship with and he would have to be all loving and all powerful

there's no basis for these claims. you're making claims based on nothing more than your preconceived notions about God.

I look at all the religions that have ever existed, and I know all those religions were just stories that people were making up.

Even if that were true, you would have no proof of that. Renowned atheists all over the world don't even claim to know that, they merely claim lack of evidence.

given the fact we can't prove God exists

even if this were true, lack of proof does not prove that God does not exist, and thereby means you do not actually "know" that God does not exist.

if you know religion is man made, then you know God does not exist

slow down.... you never proved that religion is man made, you simply suggested that there is no evidence that it is not.

Religious beliefes should be just an opinion pretty much.

The existence of a god is a matter of fact: either it is fact or it is not. Therefore, it cannot be a matter of opinion. One cannot hold the opinion that 2+2=7, because it is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact... therefore, they are simply wrong. So while I disagree with your position that God does not exist, you can't take the middle ground by saying it is okay to hold as an opinion.



I don't advocate the naturalistic method of apologetics that attempts to use science to prove God's existence. While I do not believe in evolution or the big bang theory, I also do not think that scientific laws, which God transcends, can be used to prove God's existence. That is, I do not think God can be proven aposteriori. Rather, I think the best method of apologetics is presuppositional apologetics. In fact, it proves God exists a priori. That is, any attempt to disprove God presupposes God's exists and is therefore self-destructive. It is too complex to outline here, but I suggest searching the internet for articles on presuppositional apologetics.


BTW, Van Til is not the father of this method, only the terminology. I think there are some flaws with his method and felt it was necessary to take care of that misconception before the Reformed guys chimed in.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

[The Earth's traits (size, atmosphere, etc) are hospitable to modern life]

[A list of the useful properties of water]

For the first half, she is putting the cart before the horse: the Earth is hospitable to life because life has adapted to the Earth. Do you invoke a designer for the puddle that fits perfectly into it's dip in the road? Of course not.
For the second, I am at a loss to see the relevance. Water is very useful, and all of it's useful properties can be explained by simple chemistry.

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

[The brian's information-processing abilities]

...did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?

To the first half, I again fail to see the relevance. Yes, the brain is an astounding piece of biology, one we have not come close to replicating in our machines. But this does not mean it is not the product of 3.5 billion years of evolution.

The rest is laughable. "I don't see how it could have randomly come together (which isn't even the evolutionary POV), so therefore there must have been an intelligence". Please.

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.
[Drivel and misapplication of metaphor]

[Misunderstanding of Pasteur's Germ theory]

There isn't much to say to the first, except that it is an utter misapplication of metaphor.

To the second, Pasteur's Germ theory is a theory that explains why 'germs' seem to arise spontaneously in rotting flesh. It is not a concrete mathematical law.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

[Catagorical lies about the unanimous conclusions of the objective evidence collected thus far]

["Millions of people believe in God"]

If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

To the first, I suggest that she actually look at the evidence. It points to simple mechanisms that increase entropy in an open system.

To the second, all I can do is laugh: she had just said, " This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true."

To the third, she is misrepresenting sceptics: they are people who question what is told to them. Sceptics are not defined as 'strong atheists'.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

[Anecdote about her time as a 'proselytising' atheist]

[Anecdote about her 'true motive', and her eventual conversion]

[Conclusion that all atheists proselytise, and do so because they know deep down God exists]

[Anecdotes about other converters who felt 'pursued']

Her anecdote is of questionable truth, her conclusion absurd (show me one atheist who actively proselytises), and her overarching point (that God exists because 'we feel pursued') a gross offence to those who don't feel pursued.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

[How Jesus is the only religious founder to claim to be God]

[How Jesus' attributes are synonymous with those of the Juadeo-Christian God]

To the first, I have only one word: Krishna.

To the second, is it any surprise that a Jewish man claiming to be God incarnate does the things the Jewish God is expected to do?

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine?

[List of Jesus alleged miracles]

[Waffle]

[Closing statements that arbitraily assume that Christianity is true]

To the first, there is no evidence that Jesus even existed, let alone performed such miracles. She has fallaciously presumed that the Bible's stories of Jesus are true.

To the last, I would ask her to not be so presumptious in the future; she might not come off so... pathetically.

 

[phsyxx]

Sorry, but he's also within existence. Nice try. Obviously, if God is omniPRESENT, that would mean he exists within existence as well as outside of it. It's a little like a map editor on a video game. You can create the map, right? But you can also walk inside it, and see if there are errors with it. Thus, technically, you are both inside and outside the "existence" of that map. And thus, creating this map, you would be very "relevant" to it.
Please, consider the facts before making accusations, my dear physxx

Yes, and please use the term "refutations" rather than accusations. It's not like I'm accusing anyone of any crime.

Good point. I understand where you're coming from - but I'm going to have to pick a fault with the analogy.
1) Who created the rules for the map?
2) Do you fully participate with the map?
3) If the analogy is to stand - then you will have to explain to me this magical realm outside THIS existence and IN God's realm in which he exists which allows him to pass between them.
Who created the existence in which God participates? Surely there must be existence around God for God to create this "map" (universe).

I apologise if that last bit was clumsily worded.

 

[phsyxx]

The word of God says that when man first sinned, he was separated from God. Before we ate of the one tree back in Genesis, God WALKED through the woods and spent time with Adam and Eve. But our sin separated us from Him, and the only rectification for our sins was manifested in Jesus.

So, until we die, we cannot be with God because our fleshly bodies are impure, and the word of God says that nothing impure can enter the kingdom of Heaven. And even then, if we have not believed in Christ, we will not enter Heaven because our sin debt was not paid. He came to pay our debt, but if we do not believe, we do not receive this free gift.

Blessings to you,

Cru

Sorry, yeah, Hi Crujir -

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm going off on too much of a tangent, but I have to ask you this (and it is relevent):

What colour were Adam and Eve?


Answer me this and I'll explain the rest of my argument afterwards.

 

[phsyxx]

I would ask her to not be so presumptious in the future; she might not come off so... pathetically.

Good post Wiccan_Child - I enjoyed your "debunking" session there , especially the part where you explain that sceptics are indeed, not 'strong atheists'.
Lol -
I'd just be worried though that your post might get criticised for being too...'abrupt'.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Yes, and please use the term "refutations" rather than accusations. It's not like I'm accusing anyone of any crime.

Good point. I understand where you're coming from - but I'm going to have to pick a fault with the analogy.
1) Who created the rules for the map?
2) Do you fully participate with the map?
3) If the analogy is to stand - then you will have to explain to me this magical realm outside THIS existence and IN God's realm in which he exists which allows him to pass between them.
Who created the existence in which God participates? Surely there must be existence around God for God to create this "map" (universe).

I apologise if that last bit was clumsily worded.

I think the answers were in the post you quoted, but okay then. You are taking the whole "map editor" analogy too seriously. Obviously, i cannot explain something fully with something like this, but it's the only thing I could think of at the time. Obviously God would have created the rules (which could be attributed to, say, setting up conditions to enable a specific mode to be played on that map). And as far as number two goes, of course. When I create a map on FarCry (for the XBox 360) I publish the map for online play, and I can participate in this map. Of course, those who play it with me can play it on their own, so I do not have to participate with this map all the time for it to exist.
Three.... hrm....who said anything about passing between them? That would imply he is NOT omniPRESENT. Here's a definition I pulled of an online dictionary (Because I Wuv you THHIIIISSS MUCH!!!):

1. present everywhere at the same time: the omnipresent God.

That last part was in the definition to explain the use of the word, I would imagine. AND what would be so magical about this "realm" of non-existence? Explain THAT to me, please, as to how it would be "magic". I thought this was a slightly more scientific discussion.

And for your last claim, that there has to be an existence around God.... if God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, and if he is infinite, the Alpha and the Omega (meaning the first and the last, for some of you who don't know greek letters or haven't read Revelations) then one could assume he existed before existence (As we know it) existed. Notice, I said one COULD assume. Assume, as in I'm not making any wild refutations. LOL. Goodbye, my dear physxx.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Sorry, yeah, Hi Crujir -

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm going off on too much of a tangent, but I have to ask you this (and it is relevent):

What colour were Adam and Eve?


Answer me this and I'll explain the rest of my argument afterwards.

Okay, that was a low blow, even for you. Nobody really knows the color of Adam and Eve. Not for certain. Besides, I don't see how this is relevant. If you have a point, make it now, instead of trying to trip someone up with such an obviously baited question.

 

[Crujir]

Sorry, yeah, Hi Crujir -

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm going off on too much of a tangent, but I have to ask you this (and it is relevent):

What colour were Adam and Eve?


Answer me this and I'll explain the rest of my argument afterwards.

I honestly can't tell you what colour they were, nor do I think anyone can. But the word of God talks about, somewhere in Genesis, how He scattered the people of the land and confused their cultures and languages (Had some sort of relation to the tower of Babel or something like that; I'd have to look it up.), so really it doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. Why do you ask?

 

[Crujir]

Okay, that was a low blow, even for you. Nobody really knows the color of Adam and Eve. Not for certain. Besides, I don't see how this is relevant. If you have a point, make it now, instead of trying to trip someone up with such an obviously baited question.

Btw Navy, thank you for being so supportive but its ok; let it happen. If God wants to test my faith, then so be it

"Put on the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" - Ephesians 6:11-1

 

[Crujir]

You know what, its my turn to go off on a tangent.

Can any of you faithless say "Jesus is Lord" in front of a crowd of people, and sound serious about it? The answer to this question alone will be enough to convict you of the truth. If you can, then you are not an atheist; you believe. If you can't, then the word of God still proves itself, for the word says that "No man can confess Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." Therefore if you can do it, you believe. If you can't, then the Bible is still right no matter what you say.

 

[Crujir]

Yes, and please use the term "refutations" rather than accusations. It's not like I'm accusing anyone of any crime.

Good point. I understand where you're coming from - but I'm going to have to pick a fault with the analogy.
1) Who created the rules for the map?
2) Do you fully participate with the map?
3) If the analogy is to stand - then you will have to explain to me this magical realm outside THIS existence and IN God's realm in which he exists which allows him to pass between them.
Who created the existence in which God participates? Surely there must be existence around God for God to create this "map" (universe).

I apologise if that last bit was clumsily worded.

If God is the Creator of all things as we know, including time, space, matter and energy, hence SCIENCE, then you cannot hold Him to scientific standards. You are suggesting that God is a creation, as we are, rather than realizing that you cannot put something outside of our limits and full understanding inside them. "Who created God," is an invalid question.

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

I can say Jesus is Lord in front of a crowd of people just as easily as I can say satan is my lord an savior, it all depends on what incentive one were to give me to say any of the phrases. (100$ will do it)

Crujir,- its an interesting hypothetical you thought up, because no matter what, it still ends up at the Bible being right.....

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Good post Wiccan_Child - I enjoyed your "debunking" session there , especially the part where you explain that sceptics are indeed, not 'strong atheists'.
Lol -
I'd just be worried though that your post might get criticised for being too...'abrupt'.

Haha! I have no time for such frivolous poetry, as well-intentioned as it may be. Indeed, being 'abrupt' is surely a strength: if it can be refuted in a few words, then it's not a very good argument, is it?

Though I'm not holding out for a response from Crujir...

 

[NavyGuy7]

I can say Jesus is Lord in front of a crowd of people just as easily as I can say satan is my lord an savior, it all depends on what incentive one were to give me to say any of the phrases. (100$ will do it)

Crujir,- its an interesting hypothetical you thought up, because no matter what, it still ends up at the Bible being right.....

Ummm... actually, his challenge was to say it and MEAN it. Not just say it. Anyone can say it. But to 'confess' in the bible verse implies that you MEAN it. That you believe it. Saying and believing are different things. I could say the world is going to end in five minutes without really believing it, even if I SOUNDED serious.

Perhaps this is what you meant, Crujir?

 

[Crujir]

Ummm... actually, his challenge was to say it and MEAN it. Not just say it. Anyone can say it. But to 'confess' in the bible verse implies that you MEAN it. That you believe it. Saying and believing are different things. I could say the world is going to end in five minutes without really believing it, even if I SOUNDED serious.

Perhaps this is what you meant, Crujir?

Nope. They can't say it. Not even for fun. Pride gets in the way; they are afraid of feeling ashamed for saying it. If you don't have the Holy spirit flowing through you, you can't go off and say Jesus is Lord. If the word of God says it, its a done deal. Period.

And yes; I have witnessed this.

 

[Crujir]

I can say Jesus is Lord in front of a crowd of people just as easily as I can say satan is my lord an savior, it all depends on what incentive one were to give me to say any of the phrases. (100$ will do it)

Crujir,- its an interesting hypothetical you thought up, because no matter what, it still ends up at the Bible being right.....

Exactly; the Bible is always right. Incentive has nothing to do with it. There are men who will die before they say Jesus is Lord.

 

[phsyxx]

If God is the Creator of all things as we know, including time, space, matter and energy, hence SCIENCE, then you cannot hold Him to scientific standards. You are suggesting that God is a creation, as we are, rather than realizing that you cannot put something outside of our limits and full understanding inside them. "Who created God," is an invalid question.

If God is the Creator of, as you said above : time, space, matter, and energy -

then he doesn't necessarily have to be the creator of the method by which humans observe and test their own ideas.

If you want to extend God the creator to the creator of all things: including thought, actions, emotions and things in this world which are beyond definable existence -
then you'll have to accept that God is the creator of ALL things - including science - and therefore his creation "in his own image" should be able to conceive of him, the same way computer programmes or advanced robotic systems can communicate and interact with their creators.

If you want to say that "God is not testable by science" - then because God is the creator of ALL things, and is therefore an ABSOLUTE, he therefore is not testable by ANY means.
The conclusion I draw from this is: If God is the creator of all things, then he should be findable in all things. "seek and ye will find" -
therefore, if you can find him through faith and belief, you can find him through science.

 

[phsyxx]

I You are taking the whole "map editor" analogy too seriously.

It's part of your argument. I'm taking your argument seriously.
If you don't want me to, that's fine - but, as much as I understand the speed with which you came up with the analogy, if it is to emphasise the points you're making in your argument - then it has to be pretty much water-tight.

Perhaps your, and indeed anyone's, inability to come up with a water-tight analogy to express/explain God's outside/inside omnipresent/participation properties could show how beyond our comprehension he is?

Three.... hrm....who said anything about passing between them?

Sorry, that was an assumption on my part.
I just assumed that since when you're playing your online game you're not able to see the entire situation - that that was what you meant about God and participating, and therefore not able to see the world from his Heavenly viewpoint.

May I ask, If God is both inside and outside his creation, surely that would mean he is both participating with the rules of his creation, and not participating with the rules of his creation.
Surely this is an impossible situation?

That last part was in the definition to explain the use of the word, I would imagine. AND what would be so magical about this "realm" of non-existence?

Again, that was one of my linguistic foibles - a way of dismissing what I couldn't quite grasp in your argument, (I think).

I just can't get my head around the idea that God, as an omnipresent being, (therefore being the entire universe, as he is EVERYWHERE, and must be in everything) would then exist outside of his universe in a state of existence that supposedly doesn't exist.

If God exists outside the universe - then surely there must be somewhere for him to exist?
If there isn't - then does this mean that God is beyond existence itself?

And for your last claim, that there has to be an existence around God....

No, again that was me taking your analogy literally, sorry.