How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[Ronald]

I don't pray to Allah, Brahman, Ahura Mazda, Queztalcoatl, Biame, Jupiter, Zeus, Breged, or any other gods or deities, because I think they're all imaginary. I'm guessing you don't believe in or pray to those gods or deities either. So I just believe in one less god than you

Agree

 

[Ronald]

I admire your pragmatism in tailoring your belief to avoid stuff you 'have a problem with'. That must make things a lot easier.

I don't have a problem with anything you can throw at me, I just don't feel like writing a book for ya'll. I'm avoiding anything, just don't like to repeat myself. I did a thesis on refuting the Theory of Evolution. I've been around. My father was an atheist and I know all your arguments -- heard them many times. But Dad finally came around just prior to his death at 83 years of age. Maybe someone close to you will guide you to the light - it's not going to be me. So adious.

 

[Gene2memE]

Impossible, if you truly loved Jesus and believed in Him, nothing could change your mind

Oh goody. No True Scotsman.

I'll let my great aunt - a nun for more than 40 years who became so distressed when she realised she no longer believed that she had to be hospitalised - that she never "truly loved Jesus and believed in Him".

- not even Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking,

Plenty of faithful Christians accept and understand that evolution is the best explanation of the diversity of life, and big bang cosmology provides the most complete understanding of the structure of the macro scale universe.' Just because you don't accept these explanations of reality, doesn't mean that other Christians cannot.

-not even a new discovery of 5 million transitional forms (of which there is none).

If there are no transitional forms, then how are there lists of transitional forms?

Wikipedia list of transitional fossils

Wikipedia list of human evolutionary fossils

A list of transitional fossils from transitionalfossils.com

A list of lists of transitional fossils (with references, and youtube videos)

 

[ScottA]

how would we know which is real and which is delusion?

That is the point - the perceived reality is a delusion (illusion).

 

[razzelflabben]

That is the point - the perceived reality is a delusion (illusion).

so....your suggesting that all "reality" is delusion? I don't know that I can go along with that if that is what you are saying.

 

[ScottA]

so....your suggesting that all "reality" is delusion? I don't know that I can go along with that if that is what you are saying.

How about a "creation" out of "nothing", a manifestation of things on high...can you go along with that?

But...or course you wouldn't naturally go along with something that is contrary to everything you know. That is understandable. But there is a natural world and there is a spiritual world. But, you need to get used to the idea, the natural world is passing away.

 

[razzelflabben]

How about a "creation" out of "nothing", a manifestation of things on high...can you go along with that?

why do you all keep asking me for personal beliefs when the OP question is not asking for such? IOW's that would be off topic, now wouldn't it? And being off topic this way opens the door for more off topic discussion. If you want to know my personal beliefs, PM me and we can talk, otherwise, off topic !

But...or course you wouldn't naturally go along with something that is contrary to everything you know. That is understandable. But there is a natural world and there is a spiritual world. But, you need to get used to the idea, the natural world is passing away.

ah...not sure what this has to do with perspective as it applies to beliefs...

 

[ScottA]

why do you all keep asking me for personal beliefs when the OP question is not asking for such? IOW's that would be off topic, now wouldn't it? And being off topic this way opens the door for more off topic discussion. If you want to know my personal beliefs, PM me and we can talk, otherwise, off topic ! ah...not sure what this has to do with perspective as it applies to beliefs...

Certainly discussing this present delusion is not off topic, if we care to consider the truth.

But I was not addressing your personal beliefs, but addressing your personal reluctance to consider the topic at its core. If you say you cannot go along with discussing the core of the OP...which you just did in #585 - then, we are at a standstill. Is that what you want...or do you want to discuss the crux of the problem?

 

[Dan Bert]

A "belief" is an Idea or information that is untested. Man will remain in the belief stage if he does not live the doctrines and teachings he accepts. Those that live their beliefs will move from the belief stage to the knowledge stage. How it works by living our beliefs that we accept...Spiritual and Physical fruits will result from it. The tasting of the fruits will say if it is bitter or good. That is the only way to move out from the belief stage into the knowledge stage concerning doctrines and ideas. Once we know something is true by tasting its fruits..we will never fall from it.

dan

Most religious folk seem content to reveal that the basis of their faith is an extremely personal, internal process. They agree that there is no tangible evidence that they can produce for their beliefs and that most of it resides in dreams, visions, feelings, etc, that they claim to have experienced.

Given that this is the case and observing that different religious groups will report wildly different beliefs, it becomes reasonable to conclude that they cannot all be accurate portrayals of reality.......some, or all, must be incorrect.

Hence my question.......how does an individual know that their belief is not a delusion concocted in their own mind?

 

[Kenny'sID]

What you described sounded very much like allowing your intuition (subconscious) guide you, much as Malcolm Gladwell describes in 'Blink'. Experiments have shown that when you have a certain familiarity or expertise in a context or subject, intuition (or subconscious cueing) can be very effective. The principle is similar to muscle memory where practising a particular physical skill (e.g. driving a car) eventually leads to it becoming automatic.

Problems arise with intuition in contexts about which you have little or no expertise, when the default heuristics used by what Daniel Kahneman calls 'System 1' thinking can be very misleading.

After some years in my career as a software developer, I found that I would sometimes get a bad feeling (sometimes called a 'bad smell') about some design or code suggestion, which I couldn't quite put my finger on. If the suggestion or code that 'smelt bad' was implemented, I'd quite often find a problem with it later that would trigger a spark of recognition - this was the 'bad smell' my subconscious had warned me about. Talking with other experienced developers showed I wasn't the only one who got these intuitive hints.

If you have had a reasonable amount of experience navigating in the conditions you describe, you might well have gained some intuitive expertise in those skills, and so be more successful relying on your intuition than trying to consciously deliberate your way out.

Just a thought...

Sounds right to me, and as I say, one needs to be careful with that or the next thing we know we are going after the Pope because God told us too, or something fanatical like that, IYKWIM.

As far as the OP goes, it could be as we familiarize ourselves with God, as you were with your software and me the woods, we see so many things sub as well as consciously that might be perfectly viable proof but if someone asks us what proof we have, we may not be able to tell them, but we have it nonetheless.

But in the end, I just don't know enough about it to say anything is fact one way or another in that area, but not being able to answer the OP's question or that we may not know how we know how we distinguished the difference between delusion and belief, doesn't necessarily mean we cannot, or that our belief is delusion.

The OP does after all strike me as trying to tell us if we can't answer the question, our beliefs may well be delusion. It's what he thought was a good Christian stumper/faith killer...something he wishes we'd buy but regardless of what we know or not, I seriously doubt he's going to sway anyone to concern themselves in the least over their beliefs being delusion. Thinking he could would be his own little delusion.

 

[bhsmte]

That is the point - the perceived reality is a delusion (illusion).

How do you know this?

 

[ScottA]

How do you know this?

Because I have been outside, beyond the natural world, and looked back.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...As far as the OP goes, it could be as we familiarize ourselves with God, as you were with your software and me the woods, we see so many things sub as well as consciously that might be perfectly viable proof but if someone asks us what proof we have, we may not be able to tell them, but we have it nonetheless.

The problem there is that God is rather an objectively ill-defined concept; you can gain objective, testable expertise about concepts and ideas related to God, e.g. scriptures, theology, ethics, etc., but everyone's God-concept seems to be personal to them, so there are no objective measures for knowledge or expertise concerning a personal God, and plenty of scope for biases (e.g. confirmation bias, expectation bias, etc.) and posthoc rationalisation.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No idea why you would even ask that? I guess you are just clutching at straws for a way to be right. Gov or God, who is torturing anyone for such minor offenses?

According to some Christians, Yahweh is. I've heard them say that any sin, no matter how small, is enough to warrant an eternity of Hell in Yahweh's eyes.

Never ending torment? But you know as well as I do we don't know what the deal is there, is there some point where we are destroyed, some point where we perish? Never ending as long as we exist? God has clearly, at least in my view, chosen not to be clear on that. Then you have to define never ending torment. Maybe the temperature is just constantly in the mid 90's. Could be that or something to a different degree, we just don't know. But whatever the case, if you don't believe in God why fear it? If you do, then get it together and stay out of whatever you may be in for.

I don't fear it, because I don't believe that such a place really exists. But many Christians do, and they worship the entity that they claim will send me there for the "crime" of nonbelief.

Point is I think you are purposely assuming a lot more than you know is a fact, just to make God look unfair. Common tactic with Atheists.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm responding to the claims of Christians, namely those who believe that there is a Hell comprising never-ending torture. You may not believe that, but then you should tell your fellow Christians that they are "purposely assuming a lot more than they know is a fact."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

and it is a shame too, given the mods just issued warning to everyone here.

I'm still waiting for your apology by the way.

 

[razzelflabben]

Certainly discussing this present delusion is not off topic, if we care to consider the truth.

But I was not addressing your personal beliefs, but addressing your personal reluctance to consider the topic at its core. If you say you cannot go along with discussing the core of the OP...which you just did in #585 - then, we are at a standstill. Is that what you want...or do you want to discuss the crux of the problem?

hum? you asked me what I believe, you asked me if I believe that this present world is passing away...we can reword the question and answer it without getting off topic, shall we try that?

How about, if the present world is falling away and the spiritual world is coming ever closer, how would that affect our perception of reality?

That would be a question that is on topic and I can answer as to how I understand the who OP notion.

So my answer would go something like this...if the spiritual world is real, then having an alive spirit/soul as described in the Bible as through Christ would be the only way to know truth from delusion which would be according to scripture by satan's design. See, according to scripture, satan purposes to deceive us, whereas one of the jobs of the HS is to keep us from those delusions that Satan tries to force upon us.

 

[Kenny'sID]

According to some Christians, Yahweh is. I've heard them say that any sin, no matter how small, is enough to warrant an eternity of Hell in Yahweh's eyes.

I don't fear it, because I don't believe that such a place really exists. But many Christians do, and they worship the entity that they claim will send me there for the "crime" of nonbelief.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm responding to the claims of Christians, namely those who believe that there is a Hell comprising never-ending torture. You may not believe that, but then you should tell your fellow Christians that they are "purposely assuming a lot more than they know is a fact."

Easy to see exactly what you are doing, your latching on to worse case scenarios that you don't even believe exist to begin with because you don't even believe the God exists and all in order to do what Atheists like to do, make God out to be a stinker. Same tired ol' routine.

Why don't you want us to believe in God?

I mean there has to be a reason for you constantly putting him down, and that's the best guess I can come up with. Again...why?

 

[quatona]

Easy to see exactly what you are doing, your latching on to worse case scenarios that you don't even believe exist to begin with because you don't even believe the God exists and all in order to do what Atheists like to do, make God out to be a stinker. Same tired ol' routine.

Why don't you want us to believe in God?

I mean there has to be a reason for you constantly putting him down, and that's the best guess I can come up with. Again...why?

Why don´t you go and complain to your fellow Christians who picture God in this way?
Indeed, there has to be a reason for them to do that...

 

[razzelflabben]

A "belief" is an Idea or information that is untested. Man will remain in the belief stage if he does not live the doctrines and teachings he accepts. Those that live their beliefs will move from the belief stage to the knowledge stage. How it works by living our beliefs that we accept...Spiritual and Physical fruits will result from it. The tasting of the fruits will say if it is bitter or good. That is the only way to move out from the belief stage into the knowledge stage concerning doctrines and ideas. Once we know something is true by tasting its fruits..we will never fall from it.

dan

but isn't that a form of testing? Or am I missing something?

 

[razzelflabben]

Sounds right to me, and as I say, one needs to be careful with that or the next thing we know we are going after the Pope because God told us too, or something fanatical like that, IYKWIM.

As far as the OP goes, it could be as we familiarize ourselves with God, as you were with your software and me the woods, we see so many things sub as well as consciously that might be perfectly viable proof but if someone asks us what proof we have, we may not be able to tell them, but we have it nonetheless.

But in the end, I just don't know enough about it to say anything is fact one way or another in that area, but not being able to answer the OP's question or that we may not know how we know how we distinguished the difference between delusion and belief, doesn't necessarily mean we cannot, or that our belief is delusion.

The OP does after all strike me as trying to tell us if we can't answer the question, our beliefs may well be delusion. It's what he thought was a good Christian stumper/faith killer...something he wishes we'd buy but regardless of what we know or not, I seriously doubt he's going to sway anyone to concern themselves in the least over their beliefs being delusion. Thinking he could would be his own little delusion.

as I read this post, I became increasingly reminded of a study I am currently working on about the power of Love (Biblical Love) The first power I looked into was the power of the HS (given to all true believers out of Love) to keep us from being deceived. To put it in terms of the OP, to protect us from delusion. Based on this understanding, one could argue that the only way to guard our beliefs when it comes to truth verses delusion is to be filled with and rely on and yield to the working of the HS in ones life and through ones life. but those who do not believe the Bible or the HS would never be able to grasp the true significance of the claim. Nor would they be able to discern whether the claim is right or wrong.