How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[razzelflabben]

I said "immoral", not "amoral". Two different things.

And it would be immoral to me because during the process of "recreating" humans (which doesn't seem necessary at all given an omnipotent god), countless numbers are being sent to a hell where (depending on your theology) they might be snuffed out of existence or tortured for all eternity.

did I have a typo, I thought I typed IMMORAL...it was the word meaning I was referring to whether I had an unfortunate typo or not.

I'm obviously not acting like you said something else altogether. I was responding to what you wrote:

"Or any more or less immoral than aborting babies or killing cops because some black punk got killed trying to avoid arrest?"

aha, I did type it right and you are just misrepresenting my comments...how fun.

I wasn't at that point responding to what you wrote about it not being about morality. That was later in your post.



So let's eliminate the word "need". In the scenario given, the Christian god would have:

1. "Evolved" humans instead of creating them as a final product based on a limitation of this god and not his desires.
2. "Evolved" humans instead of creating them as a final product based on that god's desires and not his limitations.
2. "Evolved" humans instead of creating them as a final product based on both desires and limitations.

None of those options are, to me, moral or loving. They all end with people in hell.

well I still don't know what is immoral about them given that morality is something that is created by the society of men...but then again that is a question I apparently will never get an answer to. As to hell, I have repeatedly now said all I will say about it in this thread, it is off topic, end of story. If you want to start another thread about hell, I'd love to join, I've been in several such topics and as long as people remain civil, they are fun discussions to have.

You specifically said:

"God isn't about morality, we talked about that, He is about justice."

That is your opinion. That is what I was commenting on.



Your own words are sufficient.

what in your opinion what? You didn't seem to finish the sentence so I don't know what you are asking.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

A true Christian doesn't grudgingly study the Word just because he is commanded to. No, he loves the Word and is hunger for the Word and can't get enough. The Bible becomes precious and He grows this way as he learns about God and himself. Did you ever have this hunger for the Word? Or were you just forced by your parents to go to church and you really would have preferred not to? Maybe they said you are a Christian, but they didn't know your true feelings. Did you ever love Jesus? Because I can't imagine anyone who ever loved Jesus, who knew Jesus would ever turn away.

I was a youth group leader. A Soul Winner. Loved Jesus with all my heart, mind and soul. Definitely had a hunger for the Word.

There's an entire organization for pastors that have become atheists.

It can happen to anyone.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, I haven´t. I asked you a totally different question, you answered it, and I commented on your answer.

sure...

 

[quatona]

sure...

Thanks for admitting your mistake.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks for admitting your mistake.

whatever helps you sleep at night, it's all a matter or record and the record shows I am right on this one. End of story.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

did I have a typo, I thought I typed IMMORAL...it was the word meaning I was referring to whether I had an unfortunate typo or not.

You said:

"So the question remains, how is it amoral?"

I think you might need to actually go back and read the previous posts between us so you aren't confused.

aha, I did type it right and you are just misrepresenting my comments...how fun.

No, as I've shown, that's not true at all...

well I still don't know what is immoral about them given that morality is something that is created by the society of men...but then again that is a question I apparently will never get an answer to. As to hell, I have repeatedly now said all I will say about it in this thread, it is off topic, end of story. If you want to start another thread about hell, I'd love to join, I've been in several such topics and as long as people remain civil, they are fun discussions to have.

Although I disagree with being unable to use the word "morality" when talking about a god, whether you call it "being moral" or "being loving" makes no difference to me. It's not loving to me to send the majority of the first version of humans to hell just to get to a version that won't go to hell.

what in your opinion what? You didn't seem to finish the sentence so I don't know what you are asking.

I finished the sentence. You don't seem to be tracking.

You said:

"God isn't about morality, we talked about that, He is about justice."

Then I responded to that opinion.

Then you denied expressing an opinion.

Which you did.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

whatever helps you sleep at night, it's all a matter or record and the record shows I am right on this one. End of story.

I'm still waiting for your apology by the way...

 

[razzelflabben]

You said:

"So the question remains, how is it amoral?"

I think you might need to actually go back and read the previous posts between us so you aren't confused.

don't know what the problem is, I already agreed that I might have made a typo but clarified we were both talking about immorality so I see no problem....you will have to be more specific I guess.

No, as I've shown, that's not true at all...

the quote you posted from me clearly was typed immoral not amoral...you might want to read it again.

Although I disagree with being unable to use the word "morality" when talking about a god, whether you call it "being moral" or "being loving" makes no difference to me. It's not loving to me to send the majority of the first version of humans to hell just to get to a version that won't go to hell.

now, now, now, in every one of my posts where I talk about morality, I talk about the difference between morality and justice, I said nothing at all about "Loving" that is a whole nothing matter and since it is my specialty when it comes to the bible, you don't want to get me started on it. IOW's don't change the topic mid way through conversation without warning.

I finished the sentence. You don't seem to be tracking.

You said:

"God isn't about morality, we talked about that, He is about justice."

Then I responded to that opinion.

Then you denied expressing an opinion.

Which you did.

Hum...in the entire discussion about God and hell and morality, which btw is two different discussions here is the sum total of what I personally said. 1. God is NOT about morality, He IS about justice. 2. Scripture says that God created hell for Satan and his demons and any other discussion of hell is off topic for this thread.

Anything else is in invention of your imagination.

 

[David4223]

MOD HAT ON

Reminder to everyone -- address the topic of the post and not attack the character of the poster.

Please treat others as you would like to be treated.

Feel free to discuss the topic, but leave the personal attacks out of the discussion.

Further violations of the flaming rule may result in staff actions being issued.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Chriliman]

So you believe your god could not have created humans as intended from the outset? I have a hard time attributing the word "omnipotent" to such a god.

Or perhaps you don't believe your god is omnipotent. You wouldn't be the first to think so.

In either case, why would such a god create people destined to suffer eternally, even if the process eventually produces people that wouldn't? If I knew that as a father my first few children would suffer horribly before I got to the children that didn't, I'd think the loving thing to do would be not to have children at all...

I do believe God is all knowing and all powerful, but he doesn't contradict himself. I also think your asking good questions that we should all honesty ask and seek answers to, but the answer must come from God Himself and not some man's ignorant interpretation of what God is saying.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So you think it would just for a government to torture you for not crossing the road at the lights? I'm not talking about a prison sentence either, but never-ending torment. Would that be fair or grossly out of proportion with the crime?

No idea why you would even ask that? I guess you are just clutching at straws for a way to be right. Gov or God, who is torturing anyone for such minor offenses?

Never ending torment? But you know as well as I do we don't know what the deal is there, is there some point where we are destroyed, some point where we perish? Never ending as long as we exist? God has clearly, at least in my view, chosen not to be clear on that. Then you have to define never ending torment. Maybe the temperature is just constantly in the mid 90's. Could be that or something to a different degree, we just don't know. But whatever the case, if you don't believe in God why fear it? If you do, then get it together and stay out of whatever you may be in for.

Point is I think you are purposely assuming a lot more than you know is a fact, just to make God look unfair. Common tactic with Atheists.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think what the poster is trying to say is that all the parts of man are intertwined yet separate, that is how we can have different parts to talk about but still only have one man....kind of like the heart is not the brain but without the heart and the brain both you don't have a functioning person. You know, that idea...

Perhaps the poster should explain just what he means.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

don't know what the problem is, I already agreed that I might have made a typo but clarified we were both talking about immorality so I see no problem....you will have to be more specific I guess.

I quoted you specifically. You said amoral.

the quote you posted from me clearly was typed immoral not amoral...you might want to read it again.

No, that's not true at all. Where I said you said "amoral" you had said amoral:

"So the question remains, how is it amoral?"

After that you said:

"Or any more or less immoral than aborting babies or killing cops because some black punk got killed trying to avoid arrest?"

But my comment about you saying "amoral" was obviously in regards to the first statement. You know, when people respond to posts they typically do so from the top down...

now, now, now, in every one of my posts where I talk about morality, I talk about the difference between morality and justice, I said nothing at all about "Loving" that is a whole nothing matter and since it is my specialty when it comes to the bible, you don't want to get me started on it. IOW's don't change the topic mid way through conversation without warning.

I didn't change the topic, based on my definitions. "Morality" deals with "good" and "evil". To do something good is to do something loving.

Hum...in the entire discussion about God and hell and morality, which btw is two different discussions here is the sum total of what I personally said. 1. God is NOT about morality, He IS about justice. 2. Scripture says that God created hell for Satan and his demons and any other discussion of hell is off topic for this thread.

Anything else is in invention of your imagination.

You were the who responded to my post to Chriliman about the topic. The topic of how an omnipotent god could have created us without the inclination to disobey, which would prevent anyone from going to hell. If you don't want to respond to that, you don't have to.

 

[razzelflabben]

No idea why you would even ask that? I guess you are just clutching at straws for a way to be right. Gov or God, who is torturing anyone for such minor offenses?

Never ending torment? But you know as well as I do we don't know what the deal is there, is there some point where we are destroyed, some point where we perish? Never ending as long as we exist? God has clearly, at least in my view, chosen not to be clear on that. Then you have to define never ending torment. Maybe the temperature is just constantly in the mid 90's. Could be that or something to a different degree, we just don't know. But whatever the case, if you don't believe in God why fear it? If you do, then get it together and stay out of whatever you may be in for.

Point is I think you are purposely assuming a lot more than you know is a fact, just to make God look unfair. Common tactic with Atheists.

would add that scripture says there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, but that would miss the point you are making and a very good point it is.

 

[razzelflabben]

Perhaps the poster should explain just what he means.

that would be awesome

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, it's a bad analogy. Life imprisonment isn't even remotely as torturous as an eternity of torment in the hell that most Christians I meet talk about. And in many cases, people in prison can be rehabilitated, let out of prison, and lead productive lives. Which makes it more moral than the Christian hell.

Read my last post, you have no idea what you are talking about and no details of what's really what or how long. And now after I've had my say we can get back on topic.

Seriously though, that's all I have to say on the matter of fair play and you attempts at making him a stinky God.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No idea why you would even ask that? I guess you are just clutching at straws for a way to be right. Gov or God, who is torturing anyone for such minor offenses?

Never ending torment? But you know as well as I do we don't know what the deal is there, is there some point where we are destroyed, some point where we perish? Never ending as long as we exist? God has clearly, at least in my view, chosen not to be clear on that. Then you have to define never ending torment. Maybe the temperature is just constantly in the mid 90's. Could be that or something to a different degree, we just don't know. But whatever the case, if you don't believe in God why fear it? If you do, then get it together and stay out of whatever you may be in for.

Point is I think you are purposely assuming a lot more than you know is a fact, just to make God look unfair. Common tactic with Atheists.

It's a common tactic amongst Christians to describe hell as a place of never ending torment. As in torture. As in the worst imaginable pain.

Do you think that many Christians would describe hell as simply "kinda hot all the time"?

 

[Kenny'sID]

would add that scripture says there is wailing and gnashing of teeth

We have that here and now, but not constantly, but of course the bible never said that would be constant. Then there is the different levels of hell theory, If God is fair, that is likely a fact and I need to get off this subject before I get in trouble.

 

[razzelflabben]

Read my last post, you have no idea what you are talking about and no details of what's really what or how long. And now after I've had my say we can get back on topic.

Seriously though, that's all I have to say on the matter of fair play and you attempts at making him a stinky God.

and it is a shame too, given the mods just issued warning to everyone here.

 

[Kenny'sID]

As in the worst imaginable pain.

Completely made up