How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[ToddNotTodd]

I think it's loving to destroy all evil so that which is good and pure can reach it's full potential. No one but God can do that and that's why he deserves our worship and praise.

Hopefully you get the point because I don't want to take the thread off topic any longer.

I don't think that really answers the question, but we can leave this to another thread.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think it's loving to destroy all evil so that which is good and pure can reach it's full potential. No one but God can do that and that's why he deserves our worship and praise.

Hopefully you get the point because I don't want to take the thread off topic any longer.

I think one thing that is true about beliefs that we haven't talked about yet is that much of our beliefs are based on our perspective of the thing we are forming a belief about. So for example, God and hell are a great example of this, on one side, you have the God is evil He uses hell for people, on the other side you have, God is good He wants to eliminate evil. Two different ways to look at the same thing resulting in two different beliefs about God and the main difference is perspective. Perspective is very important to our belief, but, that would also mean that truth or delusion is also a matter of perspective would it not?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I think one thing that is true about beliefs that we haven't talked about yet is that much of our beliefs are based on our perspective of the thing we are forming a belief about. So for example, God and hell are a great example of this, on one side, you have the God is evil He uses hell for people, on the other side you have, God is good He wants to eliminate evil. Two different ways to look at the same thing resulting in two different beliefs about God and the main difference is perspective. Perspective is very important to our belief, but, that would also mean that truth or delusion is also a matter of perspective would it not?

Depends on the belief:

I believe it is 150 degrees Celsius outside my window is a delusion regardless of perspective.
I believe it is hot outside is a matter of perspective.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Actually, this was the main motivation of the book. You see, unlike traditional Christianity, I do not believe in eternal Hell. It is more of an event, like throwing someone into a Lake of Fire and destroying them. I too, have a problem with God creating an eternal torture chamber and this is a good argument against eternal Hell. This doesn't glorify Him. Those in Heaven could not enjoy eternity with this knowledge of people suffering endlessly, so He would have to erase that from our memories. Even if He did, (and sin and evil memories would be logical to erase in Paradise), He would still have this awareness Himself. Why sustain punishment for people who have only sinned for a few decades or even eighty years? That is not justice as I see it. This is not the justice he teaches us in the Bible. ...

I admire your pragmatism in tailoring your belief to avoid stuff you 'have a problem with'. That must make things a lot easier.

 

[razzelflabben]

Depends on the belief:

I believe it is 150 degrees Celsius outside my window is a delusion regardless of perspective.
I believe it is hot outside is a matter of perspective.

I would argue yes and no...because it still depends on where you are, which is a matter of perspective.

 

[Chriliman]

I think one thing that is true about beliefs that we haven't talked about yet is that much of our beliefs are based on our perspective of the thing we are forming a belief about. So for example, God and hell are a great example of this, on one side, you have the God is evil He uses hell for people, on the other side you have, God is good He wants to eliminate evil. Two different ways to look at the same thing resulting in two different beliefs about God and the main difference is perspective. Perspective is very important to our belief, but, that would also mean that truth or delusion is also a matter of perspective would it not?

That is true of human perspective. It's interesting how our perspective can change dramatically based on new information that we weren't aware of before.

For someone like God who knows all things, His perspective cannot change like ours can because He's not gaining new information. Instead he's giving information to us through His word that He firmly establishes within us.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is true of human perspective. It's interesting how our perspective can change dramatically based on new information that we weren't aware of before.

For someone like God who knows all things, His perspective cannot change like ours can because He's not gaining new information. Instead he's giving information to us through His word that He firmly establishes within us.

True, but this also means our perspective is not His perspective and anything attributed to Him should be viewed in light of this truth.

Let me add that the most common example of this that I run into personally is that of the ordered killings in the OT attributed to God. where many of us have a problem understanding, we are basing that understanding on our perspective. Scripture however, tells us God's perspective and it is very different and most, if looking at it from that perspective don't find it so disturbing any more. Perspective doesn't make something right or wrong, or even truth or delusion, it just makes it a different way of looking at something.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What about all the atheists that used to be Christians? Like me for example...

I was brought up Christian too...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No, it's a bad analogy. Life imprisonment isn't even remotely as torturous as an eternity of torment in the hell that most Christians I meet talk about. And in many cases, people in prison can be rehabilitated, let out of prison, and lead productive lives. Which makes it more moral than the Christian hell.

And the government doesn't expect your worship...

 

[ScottA]

If it's not making sense let me rephrase:

Do you think it's loving to send some of the "works in progress" to hell, even if the end result is humans that won't be sent to hell? Wouldn't it be more loving to either create humans "right" to begin with or create no humans at all.

For me, I wouldn't create "beta" people that would end up in a hell just to get to the "final product".

None of that accurately describes our human reality.

On the contrary, unbeknownst to itself, human reality is a death sentence with an optional second chance. The silver lining is, our whole existence is not the reality we would think it is. Just as insane people don't know they are insane...humans don't know they actually live in what would better be described as an un-reality - a creation, a contrived fabrication, like internet space, or a pixelated, 3D, color cartoon. The characters don't know they're only characters.

In that actual reality, there are no "beta" people "in progress" going to hell, while others get to be the "final product." Everyone is just a sketch of what they could be...and only Gepetto decides who gets to be a real boy - and rightly so, he's Gepetto.

But...one can ask.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I would argue yes and no...because it still depends on where you are, which is a matter of perspective.

I think equating "perspective" with "location" is equivocating. But you can eliminate the problem by replacing "outside my window" with the exact longitude and latitude of your location. That gets rid of the ambiguity and what you could call "perspective".

I think it boils down to the more specific and objective your belief, the less likely perspective influences it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

None of that accurately describes our human reality.

In that actual reality, there are no "beta" people "in progress" going to hell, while others get to be the "final product." Everyone is just a sketch of what they could be...and only Gepetto decides who gets to be a real boy - and rightly so, he's Gepetto.

But...one can ask.

The idea was proposed by another Christian here. Perhaps he'd like to respond.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Instead he's giving information to us through His word that He firmly establishes within us.

Somewhere, or several 'wheres', in Scripture, it is written
that Yhwh teaches us His Spirit to and through our spirit, then (also) gradually our minds learn words to say what Yhwh has taught us in Spirit.
He ONLY teaches us(all ekklesia born again set apart in Jesus) the TRUTH, and ONLY HIS PERSPECTIVE, (unless of course He tells us He is telling us another perspective , naturally) .

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Ok, you disagree with a large number of Christians. Good. I consider your view of hell as possibly like Florida in the summer much more palatable.

Perhaps not so much a lake of fire as a rather uncomfortable sauna or hot tub.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Statement of Purpose and Off-Topic
Read and abide by each forum's Statement of Purpose; Statement of Purpose threads are sticky threads located at the top of the forum's page. Not all forums have a Statement of Purpose thread. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose. Submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

Hmm, so if the topic of discussion in a thread about distinguishing belief from delusion has got around to the rights and wrongs of hell, posts about hell would be relevant to the topic of discussion, if not the thread...

Does the rule mean exactly what it says, or does it mean 'relevant to the topic of the thread'? You be the judge

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think it's loving to destroy all evil...

Reminds me of a slogan from my student days, "Smash violence!". It was intended to be ironic.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Reminds me of a slogan from my student days, "Smash violence!". It was intended to be ironic.

It's fine as long as you do it in a loving way...

 

[razzelflabben]

None of that accurately describes our human reality.

On the contrary, unbeknownst to itself, human reality is a death sentence with an optional second chance. The silver lining is, our whole existence is not the reality we would think it is. Just as insane people don't know they are insane...humans don't know they actually live in what would better be described as an un-reality - a creation, a contrived fabrication, like internet space, or a pixelated, 3D, color cartoon. The characters don't know they're only characters.

In that actual reality, there are no "beta" people "in progress" going to hell, while others get to be the "final product." Everyone is just a sketch of what they could be...and only Gepetto decides who gets to be a real boy - and rightly so, he's Gepetto.

But...one can ask.

how would we know which is real and which is delusion?

 

[razzelflabben]

I think equating "perspective" with "location" is equivocating. But you can eliminate the problem by replacing "outside my window" with the exact longitude and latitude of your location. That gets rid of the ambiguity and what you could call "perspective".

I think it boils down to the more specific and objective your belief, the less likely perspective influences it.

maybe to a degree, maybe not. Take a thermometer for example, it varies to a degree depending on how you read it, again, perspective. Point being, I don't think we can totally do away with perspective when it comes to belief.

One of the very few wise things my mother has said is that in a family of 6, all living through the same experience, you will have 6 different stories of what happened. We see this in the Bible as well and many try to use that as an excuse to say there are flaws...when in reality, those issues are nothing more than perspective (no I am not invited a discussion that is off topic of the OP and on the topic of "flaws" in the Bible. I am using perspective to illustrate a common argument that doesn't really hold much water )

 

[Ronald]

I was a youth group leader. A Soul Winner. Loved Jesus with all my heart, mind and soul. Definitely had a hunger for the Word.

There's an entire organization for pastors that have become atheists.

It can happen to anyone.

Impossible, if you truly loved Jesus and believed in Him, nothing could change your mind - not even Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking, not even a new discovery of 5 million transitional forms (of which there is none). You see, nothing can snatch you out of the Father's hand.
"I gave them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28
Like I said, the sower of the seed tells the whole story. Some get excited for awhile, participate enthusiastically and lead others but were never born again, did not have their roots firmly planted and nourished - unless you are in a brief stage, you fell away, got misled and some event is coming to bring you back -- I don't know. I don't know if you are His or not. If on the day you die, you still thing as you do now, then I you were never saved to begin with. Don't be surprised, many people sit in church, prayer, pastors as well, go through motions, service to others, but are not saved. Who knows their hearts, what is compelling them to do it, do they want to be part of the movement, get praises from others for their works ...?
Another scripture that says it all:
"And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom. 38, 39