How does one come to believe something?

[ToddNotTodd]

The problem you have with this is that you cannot prove a negative...
By taking God out of the material realm of proof...
You have no evidence that He does NOT exist...
So your argument is self-eliminating...

And that's no shinanigans!

Arsenios

I've never claimed no god exists. You logically have the burden of proof.

 

[Arsenios]

How do you know all of this?

Empirical inwardness...

Some call it prayer...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I've never claimed no god exists. You logically have the burden of proof.

And I can only tell you where He is found...

The evidence is the change in the lives of those finding Him...

Psychotherapeutics is a distant also-ran...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I've never claimed no god exists.

Good - I don't keep track of which witch is which so good any more...

Sorry I thought you were a denier of His existence...

I can still prove, by the way, that God does not exist...
And God agrees with me...
He is the GIVER of existence...
And the TAKER AWAY of existence...
THEREFORE...
He neither exists nor doesn't exist...
But is the CAUSE of both...

quid, erat, splat!

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

And I can only tell you where He is found...

The evidence is the change in the lives of those finding Him...

Psychotherapeutics is a distant also-ran...

Arsenios

I'm guessing that for every god that has ever been worshipped there are stories about how that god changed its worshipers.

It doesn't seem to be actual evidence of anything other than the ability we have to change and to attribute that change to any deity.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I can still prove, by the way, that God does not exist...
And God agrees with me...
He is the GIVER of existence...
And the TAKER AWAY of existence...
THEREFORE...
He neither exists nor doesn't exist...
But is the CAUSE of both...

quid, erat, splat!

Arsenios

You realize that wasn't an argument at all, right?

I'm still waiting on any good evidence that any god exists.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm still waiting on any good evidence that any god exists.

I know - And I keep telling you that the evidence is found empirically within one's self...

Try this: Can you prove that your mind exists?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You realize that wasn't an argument at all, right?

It is hard to argue transcendence with a materialist, OK?

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I know - And I keep telling you that the evidence is found empirically within one's self...

Try this: Can you prove that your mind exists?

Arsenios

I can give evidence that my mind exists, sure. A mind is an emergent property of a brain. my brain can be scanned while I'm awake and the resulting data can be compared to other people to show a commonality.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It is hard to argue transcendence with a materialist, OK?

Arsenios

So, do you have any good evidence that any god exists that can be shared with other people? Because if you can't, then I have no reason to believe any claims you have.

 

[Arsenios]

So, do you have any good evidence that any god exists that can be shared with other people? Because if you can't, then I have no reason to believe any claims you have.

The evidence is to be found in the Christian lives that know God...
It is a qualitative assessment...
And, I should add, in the consistency of their witness...
I could add their martyric witness...
The hagiographic record is vast...

But all of this kind of witness is but derivative...
The primary proof is to be found in an encounter with God within one's self...

Just as your primary proof of the existence of your mind is found within your self...'

It is not found in eeg readouts and social affirmations...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So, do you have any good evidence that any god exists that can be shared with other people? Because if you can't, then I have no reason to believe any claims you have.

OK - So back at you!
Tell me...
What kind of evidence would you accept?

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The evidence is to be found in the Christian lives that know God...
It is a qualitative assessment...
And, I should add, in the consistency of their witness...
I could add their martyric witness...
The hagiographic record is vast...

But all of this kind of witness is but derivative...
The primary proof is to be found in an encounter with God within one's self...

Just as your primary proof of the existence of your mind is found within your self...'

It is not found in eeg readouts and social affirmations...

Arsenios

The point is that I have good evidence that can be shared with other people. The consistent stories of changed lives appear in every religion. It's not good evidence.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

OK - So back at you!
Tell me...
What kind of evidence would you accept?

Arsenios

Non fallacious evidence. Evidence that can be corroborated.

 

[Arsenios]

I can give evidence that my mind exists, sure.

You are about to run into some things here...

A mind is an emergent property of a brain.

OK - So we can find a mind wherever we find a brain? Or a ganglia?

my brain can be scanned while I'm awake

That only proves there are electrical properties on your head...

and the resulting data can be compared to other people to show a commonality.

And on other people's heads...

Your emergent properties are merely electrical...

Would you care to prove your consciousness exists?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Non fallacious evidence. Evidence that can be corroborated.

First hand accounts that have consistency have your corroboration...

But you are looking for and insisting upon external evidence for an internal encounter...

Are you willing to have an internal encounter?

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Would you care to prove your consciousness exists?

Nah, I'm more interested in your evidence, since you're making the positive claim that a god exists.

So, back to you.

Or are you stalling?

 

[Arsenios]

The point is that I have good evidence that can be shared with other people. The consistent stories of changed lives appear in every religion. It's not good evidence.

Good evidence is where we can get 5 PhD's counting billiard balls and writing it up in a scientific journal??

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

First hand accounts that have consistency have your corroboration...

But you are looking for and insisting upon external evidence for an internal encounter...

Are you willing to have an internal encounter?

Arsenios

Like I've already said, all religions can have consistent accounts. And I'm sure I can find accounts of your religion that you wouldn't say is consistent at all with what you believe. Which I'm guessing you would say is evidence that the account isn't from a "true" member of your religion. Which would be a fallacy.

And I don't know what an "internal encounter" is.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Good evidence is where we can get 5 PhD's counting billiard balls and writing it up in a scientific journal??

Arsenios

I have no idea what you're talking about.