How does one come to believe something?

[Colter]

Obviously, I'm not going to debunk each of these claims one by one...but I looked up the continental drift example at random and found that your "foundation" is, of course, being dishonest.

The theory of continental drift was introduced way back in 1596 and more fully developed in 1912. That's plenty of time for the charlatans who wrote this nonsense to have heard of it and included it in their book.
This is typical for the UB...the lying about how it presented some scientific discovery first, and then mankind caught on later. In truth, it simply took some scientific theories of its day and included them.

A perfect example of this is how the UB promotes eugenics. Why don't you tell us what it says about eugenics Colt?

While you're at it, tell us what it says about original sin and needing Jesus to redeem the sins of mankind. I'm certain there are some christians here who don't fully understand just how wildly different from christianity the UB is. Who is the archangel Michael according to the UB?

Because you can't debunk them. The UB didn't claim to reveal the theory of continental drift, however at the time of the Urantia revelation, CD was out of favor. The UB narrates extensive plate movements prior to the breakup of Pangea 750 million years ago. The science community initially speculated a 200 million year ago breakup. Now they say 600-800 million years ago, in line with the UB.

I provided the examples you asked for but now you want to change the subject.

As for eugenics the UB says not everyone has the same IQ. It says all mankind are one human family all loved by our Heavenly Father.

The UB says Lucifer lost faith in God and lead a rebellion against the rule of the Son in the Fathers name. It says an Adam and an Eve incarnate on the fallen, evolved earth as the worlds new spiritual rulers 38,000 years ago. In short order they were lead into a sin but both repented. It was Adam and Eve who lost their immortality status not man. By the time the Hebrews wrote the story of their traditional past they knew nothing about the old earth.

 

[Colter]

Again, all this reflects the knowledge (or lack of it) of the time it was written. We don't even consider "missing links" a thing anymore in biology....every species is a transitional species.

More to the point, if these space aliens who spoke through former 7th day adventist Kellogg were really in possession of superior technology...why didn't they share it? Why not solve the energy crisis or give us the means to feed the entire world? Why spit out useless things about the formation of mountains of continental drift?

You don't really read my post, I provided what science thought at the time compared to what the UB frankly stated, science has subsequently caught up with those statements.

The opening paragraph of post #1776 answers your question had you read it.

 

[Mattao]

There was a thread a while back entitled "Belief not a choice?" and several atheists in that thread insisted that people only come to believe things by evaluating evidence. So I thought I'd extend that into a syllogism and see if it floats.

1. People only come to believe something by evaluating evidence.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, People who are Christians only came to believe that God exists by evaluating evidence.

Is the above a sound argument? If not, why not?

Most atheist who follow internet forums normally and purposely argue that they have one underlying truth alongside captain obvious, and that is that when they argue what they believe themselves it's always something that is glaring obvious and cant be mistaken for anything else.
Which is sorely pathetic.

There are incredibly smart Christian all over the world who completely understand that what they believe in isn't abundantly obvious.
And knowing that these Christians are extremely intelligent and understand that what they believe in takes exactly a miracle to explain, and they still believe in it.

That my friends is courage and takes strength beyond that of something that someone who only has courage enough to believe in the obvious will never understand.

So if you want the bible explained to you in a way that makes believing it obvious, you'll have to change who you are. You probably dont have that much courage.

 

[ScottA]

When one claims "X is evidence of Y"....one should at least explain the "how" and "why" of the evidence and what it's evidence for. Otherwise, all you've done is create another bare assertion that lacks any evidence.

How many times do I have to tell you - there is no lack of evidence. You simply do not see it, nor do you speak the language. Nor are we here to "convince" anyone with "evidence. " On the contrary, we are "sharing" good "news."

If you were inclined to receive the good news, then it would be enough, and you would come to see it and understand the words. But, if you are not so inclined...our news is not even for you (nor will you receive it, or come to see and understand it). This is all by design...and perfectly effective.

 

[Arsenios]

In which case it's also possible that you don't remember it quite as it was.
Human memory is pretty unreliable.

Did you remember that memory is pretty unreliable?
Or did you have to write it down somewhere?
Or did you look it up on the internet?
Or did your neighbor remind you?

But you will perhaps garner is that I do not live in the dusty tomes of mnemonic memorabilia so I can be quick with written data to back up every iota of word that I utter... I will leave that to others with better organizational skills than I have, and better memories... I simply do not live there... Those are dead ends for me... They will not take you to God... And as long as you stay in your documented and provable scientific truths, you will abide in them and die in them... You will never in them know God...

This is why I resist your invitations to enter into them - They are irrelevant because they end in molecular disintegration at death, and cannot get you beyond that most certain event in your earthly existence... It is not scientific proofs that make a difference in lives lived, but in the attainment of integrity of mind in purity of heart, for in this alone can one attain unto Life beyond worms or cremation... Science as you understand it is utterly limited to material knowledge and proofs, and is constantly expanding and subject to revision...

So more directly to your point, IF you are right, then WHERE in human experience can one FIND in human existence a state of mentation wherein your oh-so-unreliable-memory is not foundational? I do not think you have the possibility of answering this question, but am open to being joyfully surprised!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I dunno - Are YOU a Garden Fairy?

"Depends, can you see me now?"

Depends...

Why did you ask THEM?

Maybe they can...

But what do THEY know?

A.

 

[Arsenios]

The very point of verification is that it is not personal.

False - The very point of verification is that it is personally verified by another person...

You cannot escape SELF in the field of SCIENCE...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But in order to make me aware of an actual fact...
You need to demonstrate it.
Not just claim it.

The demonstration of God is only found in the lives that bear Him witness in DEEDS...
The demonstration is not in words...
It is found in sincerity and love and joy and utter disregard for self and total engagement with others according to God's Holy Will, (which you will not be able to discern). When you ENCOUNTER God-bearing Holy Ones of God, then you will see for yourself the quality of life of which we speak... You will not find it on the internet, and if you are avoiding God, it is pretty hard to find in the world...

We had a Bishop [a holy man, this one] go alone through Airport security one day carrying his Bishop's Crown in a largish box, wearing his black cassock and a monk's cap... The man examining his baggage wanted to see in the box, so he pulled out the crown, to the astonishment of the employee, who asked "Are all those jewels REAL???" The Bishop replied "I wish..." And he asked: "Are you some kind of Royalty?" The Bishop replied "Higher..." (raising both hands, palm upwards, a few inches a couple of times)... "Are you a prince?" The Bishop replied again: "Higher..." The man asked incredibly: "You're not a King, are you???" The Bishop replied: "Higher..." "Well WHAT then??"

"A Servant of the Most High God..."

He was passed through...

God is encountered in His Holy Ones...

They normally avoid public encounters...

So your chances are pretty slim...

Which for many is seen as good news...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

E.T.A. Oops! gazumped by Freodin...

I love your avatar-name and your rugged joyfulness!

Jes' sayin'!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Facts can be independently verified.

Facts can only be PERSONALLY verified...

No Person = No Verification...

My brother, you cannot divorce fact from self...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy you know...

What?
You don't like flat-earth scientific proof?
Me too...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Facts are usually taken to be demonstrable correspondences with states of affairs in the world. If you'd like to supply your own definition, by all means do so.

Listen, you Frumious Ol' Codgeristic Bandersnatch!

I only got but ONE question fer ya!

Is SELF a FACT?

OK - I LIED - I gots 'nuther 'un..

What are your CORRESPONDENCES of self with self? Or with your "states of affairs in the world"?

Because it is the SELF that ESTABLISHES your CORRESPONDENCES...

And THAT correspondence has NO worldly referent...

Irreligious of the fact of mental illness...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Actually it means pseudo mystical mumbo jumbo that can't be verified and isn't worth listening to.

You know... your M.O...

At least you say so with no bitterness at all...

I don't know how you manage it...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm certainly unwilling to die to get it.
Give me something to work with;

I think you know that within YOU exists both good and evil...

1 Die to all that is evil...

2 Embrace all that is good...

Ask the God in Whom you do not believe to help you...
Do so every time to do either 1 or 2...

Then pay attention to inner and outer events...

There! Now you have something to work with...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are doing it wrong, totally wrong.

It is proof! Rock-solid, undeniable, perfect proof. Never admit anything else.

And it is him who cannot prove that there is no God... you can prove that there is no God - he just cannot perceive it.

Because you prove it by using RUPA-Logic! Rock-solid, Undeniable, Perfect Atheistic Logic!

You don't have to describe the rules or axioms of RUPA-Logic. You don't need to... he wouldn't accept or understand it if you did. RUPA-Logic is based on only one thing: Rock-solid Undeniable Perfect Atheistic Truth! Which he cannot have as long as he isn't all four if it.

The Perfect Analogy for this is a Glass of Water. It is neither half-full nor half-empty, but both Glass and Water. Which makes no sense... if you use common "physical world logic" or common "spiritual logic". But when you use RUPA-Logic, it makes perfect sense and shows that I am right!


I am right. Atheists would never use something they made up.

I can still prove God does not exist!
AND...
I can prove that God DOES exist...

When it is God Who gives existence and takes it away again...
He is obviously well beyond both existence and non-existence...

God is not impressed, but is often bemused, at arguments for or against His existence...

He is the Giver of existence...

Ya kinda jest gotta get over it...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Sure...children believe that their dogs have just gone off to live on a farm somewhere in the country. They see the same world that you see...just in a different way.

I'm not going to say there aren't any atheists who've had "spiritual conversions"...

I'm sure there are. I simply don't put much stock into their stories because I always seem to find (if I look) that they weren't really atheists to begin with. They "believe" they were atheists because they simply don't understand it...they may think that neglecting their "spirituality" is the same thing as atheism...it isn't. It's the general problem with believers trying to understand non-believers. We know that you have doubts, we know you have times when you realize your beliefs make no sense, but those things don't make one an atheist.

I was an Ayn Rand Objectivist atheist for 17 years and met God at age 36...

I was one of those atheists who simply dismissed Christians and god-believers as having a flawed concept that could not exist in reality... And I would not suffer fools... A is A, and that which is, is not that which it is not... etc etc... I was unchurched, and had no faith in God at all ever...

All anecdotal, not test-tube verifiable mind you - So you are safe - Just words and no proof...

Oh wait! If I showed you my life of the first 36 years, and the last 36, and if you were able to see what I was showing you, there is a whole lifetime of objective "proof"... Still, that doesn't count... Gimme some billiard balls and a pool table, and I will prove God by Pythagoras! Aaarrrgghhh, Me Lad!

Arsenios

 

[bhsmte]

I can still prove God does not exist!
AND...
I can prove that God DOES exist...

When it is God Who gives existence and takes it away again...
He is obviously well beyond both existence and non-existence...

God is not impressed, but is often bemused, at arguments for or against His existence...

He is the Giver of existence...

Ya kinda jest gotta get over it...

Arsenios

You can prove God exists and also prove he doesnt exist.

To me, that would appear to mean neither proof was very good, if they can be countered with the opposite proof.

 

[Arsenios]

So you are saying that the only way for my husband to be happy in Heaven is to forget me entirely?

May it NEVER be so!

! ! ! ANATHEMA ! ! !

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You can prove God exists and also prove he doesn't exist.

To me, that would appear to mean neither proof was very good, if they can be countered with the opposite proof.

TO YOU!

Arsenios

 

[bhsmte]

TO YOU!

Arsenios

Well lets see what others think.