How does one come to believe something?

[Ana the Ist]

Atheist who have spiritual conversion experiences don't usually claim that it was based on an intellectual discovery, the result of so called human reasoning. From the outside looking in, the material universe looks purely mechanical, devoid of spiritual influences. From within the mind of the spirit born child of God the same universe looks spiritual. I see the world that you see but I see it in an entirely different way.

Sure...children believe that their dogs have just gone off to live on a farm somewhere in the country. They see the same world that you see...just in a different way.

I'm not going to say there aren't any atheists who've had "spiritual conversions"...I'm sure there are. I simply don't put much stock into their stories because I always seem to find (if I look) that they weren't really atheists to begin with. They "believe" they were atheists because they simply don't understand it...they may think that neglecting their "spirituality" is the same thing as atheism...it isn't. It's the general problem with believers trying to understand non-believers. We know that you have doubts, we know you have times when you realize your beliefs make no sense, but those things don't make one an atheist.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Physical logic pertains to physical things...spiritual logic pertains to spiritual things.

If you only live in the physical world, you are like a fish that cannot relate to or appreciate the air and the land. But even a fish does not deny what he does not know.

The proof is on land - evolve, or die.

So, tell me what you know about spiritual logic.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The point I was trying to make if that in a universe governed by precise, testable, repeatable laws, the fact that 2 people can have opposite views should be proof enough to you that the universe is not entirely material/mechanical.

It's not proof.

Consciousness transcends the platform of the material, electrochemical currants that sustains it.

Not really...no.

All of the material universe is gravity responsive to the Great Attractor, even the galaxies and clusters of galaxies are in the grasp of this force.

I would call this outright nonsense...but you got it from your space-Jesus book didn't you? So I guess I would call it marketable nonsense.

But while our material bodies on this material world are in it's grasp, consciousness isn't. Mind is mind made, the universe is mind made and mind managed.

If you can show me a consciousness that exists apart from the "material world" as you put it...I'll consider this a possibility. Until then, it sounds ridiculous.

Also, the universe isn't "mind-made" or managed or any of that.

We still can't prove it but assuming we are correct, that God created the finite economy for his children to begin their training ascent in, we would still be confronted with this world of uncertainty exactly as it is.

I'm not sure at all what you mean by this...you're saying that your beliefs don't help you understand the world? I think that's a frank and honest evaluation of your beliefs and I'd agree completely.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

From abuse...from those who are against God...from the enemy.

How could they abuse it?

You are not listening...we have seen something you have not, and this is our report. It is not unsubstantiated except to those like yourself who have not seen. You are simply in the dark. If it has been told by one portion of the population to another portion all throughout the history of the world - it cannot be said that it is unsubstantiated. That is simply not true.

OK; that there is a report is substantiated, but the content of that report is not. The appeal to history or tradition is a fallacy, as is the appeal to the masses (argumentum ad populum).

If a lifetime ends in death...and you take away time...what you end up with is "death."

That's trite nonsense. Yes, death comes to us all; but there is time, and we have lives to live - be they long or short.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Can you direct me to the current astronomy which shrinks the Great attractor?

Now I come to look, it's from 2006, so only relatively recent: X-Rays Reveal What Makes the Milky Way Move. It may be that the Great Attractor has been (or will be) extended to include Shapley Supercluster at some point.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The point I was trying to make if that in a universe governed by precise, testable, repeatable laws, the fact that 2 people can have opposite views should be proof enough to you that the universe is not entirely material/mechanical.

I missed this - it doesn't follow at all. Even identical twins can have differing views because being separate individuals, they may have very different experiences as a result of those precise, testable, repeatable laws.

 

[ScottA]

So, tell me what you know about spiritual logic.

The point was whether or not it was logical to believe there is a God or not...and that it is not logical to demand a showing of physical proof for a spiritual God. Evidence of a spiritual God...would be spiritual (duh). And to examine said spiritual evidence could only occur in a spiritual court. Is this not logical to you?

 

[ScottA]

How could they abuse it?

The spiritual offering of from God, offered to the physical world, is literally light into darkness, holiness into unholiness. Pick your own example...money into poverty, whatever - abuse is abuse, and would spoil the purity or value of the offering.

OK; that there is a report is substantiated, but the content of that report is not. The appeal to history or tradition is a fallacy, as is the appeal to the masses (argumentum ad populum).

No...it is not a "report" - it is a constant condition given from one portion of the population to the rest of the world - spanning all of recorded history. Your claim of fallacy, is as ridiculous as claiming nighttime does not establish darkness. Your denying the elephant in the room...is what is a fallacy.

That's trite nonsense. Yes, death comes to us all; but there is time, and we have lives to live - be they long or short.

I see you have not done the math ("there is time"). Try again.

 

[Colter]

Now I come to look, it's from 2006, so only relatively recent: X-Rays Reveal What Makes the Milky Way Move. It may be that the Great Attractor has been (or will be) extended to include Shapley Supercluster at some point.

That's old science.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/laniakea-home-supercluster-09032014/

 

[Colter]

I missed this - it doesn't follow at all. Even identical twins can have differing views because being separate individuals, they may have very different experiences as a result of those precise, testable, repeatable laws.

You missed the point. The twins are indeed individuals, they are personalities. We are minds that transcend the purely mathematical, we are free to observe the same universe in different ways.

Here are some quotes from the UB that may be effectively penetrating:


"A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit."

"The very claim of materialism implies a supermaterial consciousness of the mind which presumes to assert such dogmas. A mechanism might deteriorate, but it could never progress. Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness. They do not motivate their lives with the passion to serve other machines and to choose as their goal of eternal progression the sublime task of finding God and striving to be like him. Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual."

"How foolish to presume that an automaton could conceive a philosophy of automatism, and how ridiculous that it should presume to form such a concept of other and fellow automatons!"

"The universe is not like the laws, mechanisms, and the uniformities which the scientist discovers, and which he comes to regard as science, but rather like the curious, thinking, choosing, creative, combining, and discriminating scientist who thus observes universe phenomena and classifies the mathematical facts inherent in the mechanistic phases of the material side of creation. Neither is the universe like the art of the artist, but rather like the striving, dreaming, aspiring, and advancing artist who seeks to transcend the world of material things in an effort to achieve a spiritual goal."



"Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves."

"Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness." UB

 

[Colter]

I would call this outright nonsense...but you got it from your space-Jesus book didn't you? So I guess I would call it marketable nonsense.

Its current science, but you may not believe that exists either:

Measurements of thousands of galaxies’ motions toward and away from us reveal that the Milky Way sits on the edge of a gigantic supercluster of galaxies.


http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/laniakea-home-supercluster-09032014/

 

[Colter]

Sure...children believe that their dogs have just gone off to live on a farm somewhere in the country. They see the same world that you see...just in a different way.

I'm not going to say there aren't any atheists who've had "spiritual conversions"...I'm sure there are. I simply don't put much stock into their stories because I always seem to find (if I look) that they weren't really atheists to begin with. They "believe" they were atheists because they simply don't understand it...they may think that neglecting their "spirituality" is the same thing as atheism...it isn't. It's the general problem with believers trying to understand non-believers. We know that you have doubts, we know you have times when you realize your beliefs make no sense, but those things don't make one an atheist.

Atheist believe in a Godless universe. As a fellow finite I actually sympathize with your legitimate disagreements with the superstitious component of evolved religions. And frankly no matter how far one would progress in a universe created by an Absolute, we will always be relative, there would always be unknowns, unknowable's, existential. Lucifer was an example of a very high and brilliant personality who was also subject to faith in the unseen Father, he became an Atheist. It can happen to anyone who takes themselves to seriously.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The point was whether or not it was logical to believe there is a God or not...and that it is not logical to demand a showing of physical proof for a spiritual God. Evidence of a spiritual God...would be spiritual (duh). And to examine said spiritual evidence could only occur in a spiritual court. Is this not logical to you?

Tell me how spiritual evidence is used in a spiritual court.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Lucifer was an example of a very high and brilliant personality who was also subject to faith in the unseen Father, he became an Atheist.

Does Lucifer believe that God exists? If yes, he's not an Atheist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The spiritual offering of from God, offered to the physical world, is literally light into darkness, holiness into unholiness. Pick your own example...money into poverty, whatever - abuse is abuse, and would spoil the purity or value of the offering.

You're saying God's 'all good' spiritual offering can be turned bad? OK.

No...it is not a "report"

Ah, it's just that when you said, "this is our report" I thought you meant, 'this is our report'...

Your claim of fallacy, is as ridiculous as claiming nighttime does not establish darkness. Your denying the elephant in the room...is what is a fallacy.

You may not like it, but appeal to tradition and appeal to the masses are both well-known fallacies.

I see you have not done the math ("there is time"). Try again.

Your claim, your burden of proof - you show me that math you say supports your idea - if you can.

 

[Colter]

Does Lucifer believe that God exists? If yes, he's not an Atheist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

No, Lucifer lost faith in the unseen Father. He knew his elder paradise brothers but rebelled against their authority. He

Does Lucifer believe that God exists? If yes, he's not an Atheist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

No, Lucifer lost faith in the Unseen Father. Even though Lucifer was a high celestial personality in the administration of our local universe, he was an eventuated being who lived by faith. He knew his elder paradise brothers and the many other beings of divine origin in authority above him, but he fell in love with his own brilliance, rebelled against the rule of his elders and launched his orgy of darkness and death.

Lucifer betrayed his sacred trust and lead our world and many others under his jurisdiction into rebellion. Without even realizing it you are just parroting Lucifer's meme, even making it bear more dark fruit.



1. "The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

2. The universe government of the Creator Son—Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler." UB 1966

Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days—"foreign potentates"—to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That's old science.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/laniakea-home-supercluster-09032014/

OK, thanks. That article suggests that the Great Attractor is only a part (a 'valley') of something much larger. I don't think it supports your assertion that, "All of the material universe is gravity responsive to the Great Attractor, even the galaxies and clusters of galaxies are in the grasp of this force" - except in the trivial sense that everything in the universe is responsive to the gravity of everything else in the universe.

But it doesn't really matter - it's a developing area.

 

[quatona]

Lucifer was an example of a very high and brilliant personality who was also subject to faith in the unseen Father, he became an Atheist.

Lucifer didn´t believe a God existed?

 

[Eudaimonist]

No, Lucifer lost faith in the Unseen Father.

Okay, then he's not an Atheist. He's a rebellious theist, possibly a misotheist (sometimes referred to as a maltheist).

Lucifer betrayed his sacred trust and lead our world and many others under his jurisdiction into rebellion. Without even realizing it you are just parroting Lucifer's meme, even making it bear more dark fruit.

Cool.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Colter]

Okay, then he's not an Atheist. He's a rebellious theist, possibly a misotheist (sometimes referred to as a maltheist).



Cool.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I knew you would like it Mark.

53:4.2 "Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion. One of his chief arguments was that, if self-government was good and right for the Melchizedeks and other groups, it was equally good for all orders of intelligence. He was bold and persistent in the advocacy of the “equality of mind” and “the brotherhood of intelligence.” He maintained that all government should be limited to the local planets and their voluntary confederation into the local systems. All other supervision he disallowed. He promised the Planetary Princes that they should rule the worlds as supreme executives. He denounced the location of legislative activities on the constellation headquarters and the conduct of judicial affairs on the universe capital. He contended that all these functions of government should be concentrated on the system capitals and proceeded to set up his own legislative assembly and organized his own tribunals under the jurisdiction of Satan And he directed that the princes on the apostate worlds do the same." UB 1955