How does one come to believe something?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Bear with the analogy - it's perfect. You are both a character in the book, as well as one who is reading it, and you are only part way through. You are in the chapter bearing your name. Your character is perfectly cast, and you will do what you will do. Every moment is realtime - real as the story goes, and you are doing what is written...and yet do not know your next move anymore than someone else who has not read it. Does that mean you have freewill? Yes and no...

Logically, the answer must be 'no'. If our every action is 'written' then we cannot choose to do otherwise, therefore we have no free will. It might feel as if we can choose freely, but - by your 'perfect' analogy - that is just an illusion resulting from our lack of foreknowledge - as Isaac Bashevin Singer put it, "We must believe in free will — we have no choice". You're painting us as zombies or robots, unwittingly following a pre-ordained plan, helpless to deviate from it.

This 'perfect analogy' of a book that is already written, flatly contradicts one of the most fundamental tenets of Christianity, free will.

I suspect that with your claim of perfection in this analogy you have painted yourself into a corner with no wiggle room.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Very good...you just answered your own question.

Er, no - you just failed to answer my question: What are you claiming I've accused the "entire community and history of those who know God" of ? Link or quote what I said that makes you think so; substantiate it or withdraw it. I'll take it as measure of your honesty.

... dying comes under "how-to" info.

Lol - everyone manages it eventually.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I am.

By way of biology or in a "brother in Christ" way?

 

[bhsmte]

I am.

Cool.

 

[ScottA]

Ok... now that's definitly it.

There is no one who could say I haven't been patient, that I haven't given you the benefit of the doubt, that I haven't tried my best.

Let's go back a little bit, shall we?


So I presented a fact, that I have repeatedly made clear is established to me, but may not have been established to you.

And instead of adhering to your own rule, accepting that and chosing to now call it "fact"... you try to find excuses why you need not do that.

Your behaviour here makes absolutely clear that you cannot abide by even your own rules, that your only position, even if it contradicts your own rules, is "I am right... you are not."


Because your "knowledge" is beyond reproach and mustn't be questioned, while my knowlegde must be false (or "only in part") by default. It is simply not possible for you to be honest and admit that "you" simply do not know it to be true.


Yes, you made that absolutely clear, without a doubt: you insist of being accepted as correct.

There is no way to continue a conversation who "insists" on rules for a conversation and cannot keep them himself.

I tried. I won't try anymore. Welcome to my ignore list.

Look...we have been struggling through a process of how to effectively communicate, and, yes, I have put my foot down and insisted on a certain level of honesty - but I am doing this all for you. To have come into the Source of all knowledge / all truth, only to find rejection from those who will not hear and keep bouncing around every which way to try and fit a greater reality into the little spec of reality they are limited to...simply has not been working. Under the circumstances...I...should be guiding the conversation. But, every time we come to a bump - you get all emotional and call it quits. So...if you want to quit - you are quitting on yourself - I don't need this...I already have the truth we have been edging up to.

Your ball.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I already have the truth we have been edging up to.

No you don't.

Your turn.

 

[bhsmte]

Look...we have been struggling through a process of how to effectively communicate, and, yes, I have put my foot down and insisted on a certain level of honesty - but I am doing this all for you. To have come into the Source of all knowledge / all truth, only to find rejection from those who will not hear and keep bouncing around every which way to try and fit a greater reality into the little spec of reality they are limited to...simply has not been working. Under the circumstances...I...should be guiding the conversation. But, every time we come to a bump - you get all emotional and call it quits. So...if you want to quit - you are quitting on yourself - I don't need this...I already have the truth we have been edging up to.

Your ball.

LOL

 

[ScottA]

It's true - asking you to support your claims of evidence has produced no facts whatever to 'access or process'.

So...the limit that we are working with comes down to language - such as it is. However, you seem to be unwilling to go where the information is...you seem to be unable to recognize the evidence in your location (even though it is omnipresent)...and you will not trust what I can tell you.

Give me something to work with.

 

[ScottA]

I will acknowledge what is probably true (belief is too strong a word in this context) if I can see good reason to think it is beyond reasonable doubt. Good reason includes convincing or plausible evidence, and/or argument. I always have reservations because we can never be absolutely certain of anything but analytic truths.

The need here has been described in many ways, "leap of faith", etc., but the point is - you cannot go there...without going. Interestingly, you can go there and still be here - but you do have to first be willing to go...completely.

You do realise such morbid focus on death is possibly the least persuasive argument you can make for someone who doesn't already believe? To the best of my knowledge, I have one relatively short life, and I don't intend to spend it anticipating its end. To me, this is choosing life over death.

It's not an argument...or a sales pitch, it is a hard reality. You may succeed at kidding yourself for the rest of your days - but if you were to be honest with yourself, you would want to come to terms with the reality that you are on death row....and you are throwing your offers of appeal and repeal in the trash.

Whatever. Enjoy the yard.

 

[ScottA]

By way of biology or in a "brother in Christ" way?

Whoever does the will of our Father in heaven is my family.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Whoever does the will of our Father in heaven is my family.

So NOT biologically. Got it.

 

[quatona]

No...I'm family.

So you think CF invited us to come here so that you, Scott, can claim home advantage?

 

[ScottA]

Logically, the answer must be 'no'. If our every action is 'written' then we cannot choose to do otherwise, therefore we have no free will. It might feel as if we can choose freely, but - by your 'perfect' analogy - that is just an illusion resulting from our lack of foreknowledge - as Isaac Bashevin Singer put it, "We must believe in free will — we have no choice". You're painting us as zombies or robots, unwittingly following a pre-ordained plan, helpless to deviate from it.

This 'perfect analogy' of a book that is already written, flatly contradicts one of the most fundamental tenets of Christianity, free will.

I suspect that with your claim of perfection in this analogy you have painted yourself into a corner with no wiggle room.

No, no...you have not grasped the entirety of the analogy: There is no lack of foreknowledge - because there is no [actual] future...it's all realtime. It is indeed, all already written...but while we are walking or reading our way through - that is also when it is written. As we go through life we walk and see and make choices and it is/was recorded/written. The past tense reference to it all already being written...is only relative to our place within the story: the apex of which was written or sealed some 2000 years ago (according to the timeline of our story).

And...when I say "realtime"...I mean story time - which is only real...in the story.

Freewill, then, is real enough - we do make our own choices. The kicker, however, is that even though we choose our own way...God decides where it takes us Proverbs 16:9.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

.. However, you seem to be unwilling to go where the information is...

I'm certainly unwilling to die to get it.

...you seem to be unable to recognize the evidence in your location (even though it is omnipresent)...and you will not trust what I can tell you.

So far, you've told me I have to die to see it. How do I recognise this 'omnipresent' evidence? Evidence should be independently verifiable - if it's that obvious, it shouldn't be a matter of trust.

Give me something to work with.

Such as what? You're the one making the claim and saying the evidence is 'omnipresent' - you give me something to work with; the burden of proof lies with you.

 

[ScottA]

So you think CF invited us to come here so that you, Scott, can claim home advantage?

No, but if family has to say they are family to clarify who owns the house - then the guest has lost sight of courtesy and respect.

 

[ScottA]

I'm certainly unwilling to die to get it.

It is that great misunderstanding about life, that has cause much to be written to clarify:

Luke 9:25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the wholeworld, and is himself destroyed or lost?

Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

So far, you've told me I have to die to see it. How do I recognise this 'omnipresent' evidence? Evidence should be independently verifiable - if it's that obvious, it shouldn't be a matter of trust.

It is independently verifiable, as we have said, "It is personal." But who puts something of great value out where thieves and robbers would take what is not their's - God is no fool. No, of course, it is hidden. In fact, it is not at all free - it is only the invitation that is free: You must come forth, surrendering your death sentence of a life in-trade, and for doing so receive eternal life.

Such as what? You're the one making the claim and saying the evidence is 'omnipresent' - you give me something to work with; the burden of proof lies with you.

I am not here to prove what I already know is true, but to share. Take it or leave it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you think CF invited us to come here

Did someone invite you?
I visited after surfing the web, without an invitation ever seen.
(or at least none remembered)...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No, no...you have not grasped the entirety of the analogy: There is no lack of foreknowledge - because there is no [actual] future...it's all realtime. It is indeed, all already written...but while we are walking or reading our way through - that is also when it is written. As we go through life we walk and see and make choices and it is/was recorded/written. The past tense reference to it all already being written...is only relative to our place within the story: the apex of which was written or sealed some 2000 years ago (according to the timeline of our story).

This is simply incoherent.

You said in your 'perfect' analogy that, "You are both a character in the book, as well as one who is reading it, and you are only part way through... you are doing what is written"; now you also say "It is indeed, all already written". This is quite clear, and means you do not have free will to choose otherwise. If it is 'all already written' we have no choice but to do what is written.

If the book is being written as we make our choices and take our actions, then it is not 'all already written' like a book you are reading that you are only part way through, so it is not like your perfect analogy.

You can't have it both ways and remain logically coherent.

 

[HitchSlap]

It is that great misunderstanding about life, that has cause much to be written to clarify:

Luke 9:25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the wholeworld, and is himself destroyed or lost?

Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
It is independently verifiable, as we have said, "It is personal." But who puts something of great value out where thieves and robbers would take what is not their's - God is no fool. No, of course, it is hidden. In fact, it is not at all free - it is only the invitation that is free: You must come forth, surrendering your death sentence of a life in-trade, and for doing so receive eternal life.
I am not here to prove what I already know is true, but to share. Take it or leave it.

Until such time as you can provide objective independently verifiable evidence for your claims, I'll just toss this on the pile of all other unsubstantiated claims, and "leave it."

Thank's for your effort.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are just as much a guest on this forum as anyone else.

Is 'guest' the right/ best word ?
It seems more like a giant grocery store with a lot of packages outdated(past expiration date).

When we go to Albertsans Grocery Store or Warhouse Mrkt, are we guests there ? Customers ?
Customers if we don't buy anything ?
Customers if we PUT THINGS on the shelves ? (instead of buying things)?