How does one come to believe something?

[ScottA]

I think you're in desperate need of a really basic book on Philosophy. Because you don't seem to understand what the word even means. If you send me your address I'll be happy to send you something from my freshman year. It will make posting to the Philosophy forum less embarrassing for you.

phi·los·o·phy
fəˈläsəfē/
noun

1. the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
   • a particular system of philosophical thought.
     plural noun: philosophies
     "Schopenhauer’s philosophy"
   • the study of the theoretical basis of a particular branch of knowledge or experience.
     "the philosophy of science"
     synonyms: thinking, thought, reasoning
     "the philosophy of Aristotle"

...Stop evading the subject. The simple philosophical truth, is that you have been incapable of theoretical thought or study on this topic.

So, either you're intentionally ignoring my questions, or you have some vague idea that you think you are. But you really aren't.

I'll ask again.

If someone else claims to "see" another realm that can't be demonstrated, how do you, as a believer in a realm that seemingly can't be demonstrated, justify your disbelief in what they see? What if their realm contradicts the realm you believe in?

Notice the phrase "can't be demonstrated".

I am not ignoring your questions, but addressing them as they pertain to the subject, i.e., if something does not belong in the equation, I tell you. But you are obviously getting ahead of your ability to comprehend the subject: I gave you a very simple analogy of two realms, one below and one above - and it went right by you as if you did not know I even did it. If you cannot understand something as elementary as what I explained, you are not ready to go on. Nevertheless, I will (again) answer your questions:

1. First of all, I am not a "believer." What I know, I "know." But if I were only a "believer", the only justification would be, given a truthful explanation, is that I simply have no interest in it.
2. If their explanation contradicted everything I know, the only explanation would be: 1) they aren't telling the truth, or 2) it all contradicts, because it is as different as they claim.

 

[ScottA]

Notice the phrase "can't be demonstrated".

This is not philosophy, so I will address it separately:

By the nature of this topic, the only demonstration available would be an act of God - like a bolt of lightening.

And the only way to experience the other eternal realm of the spirit of God...is to die.

 

[Arsenios]

No. Believing in a physical brain doesn't make you a Nihilist.

You believe mind is a function of (brain) matter...

The key words which you seem to have missed are "a function of"...

Do you remember telling us that mind is a function of the brain?

I think you might want to look up the definition of "Nihilism".

There are a lot of its branches, each with its very own long-winded definitions...

The basic meaning that underlies them all is the Latin root: NIHIL

NIHIL means NOTHING...

You are, after all, in the Philosophy section...

And you are, after all, a nothing-ist, because you believe mind is a function of the brain...
And the brain disintegrates at death...
So you look forward to the disintegration and loss of your mind...
Where your mind will become nothing because it has lost the very basis of its existence...

All materialism is nihilism...
Can't be avoided...
It can, of course, be evaded...
We have living proof on this very forum!

All materialists, you see...
Each and every mother's son of them...
Are nihilists...
Looking forward to NOTHING...

And living in the fear thereof...

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

...Stop evading the subject. The simple philosophical truth, is that you have been incapable of theoretical thought or study on this topic.

I know what Philosophy is. I've got a degree in it. How about you?

And I don't suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect, unlike some people...

The "simple philosophical truth" is that you're not doing Philosophy.

1. First of all, I am not a "believer." What I know, I "know." But if I were only a "believer", the only justification would be, given a truthful explanation, is that I simply have no interest in it.
2. If their explanation contradicted everything I know, the only explanation would be: 1) they aren't telling the truth, or 2) it all contradicts, because it is as different as they claim.

Hey, we're finally getting somewhere.

1. No intellectually honest person would say they know most things with 100% certainty. So I think saying you're a "believer", especially in terms of this subject, is appropriate. Other people of other religion faiths say they "know" they're correct. If the claims are mutually exclusive, then you can't all be right.

Which leads to:

2. So, if person A says "No, it's you that's not telling the truth. I know my beliefs are true, which means your beliefs can't be true.", how does a third party determine who's correct?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

This is not philosophy, so I will address it separately:

Actually, the demonstration of claims IS part of Philosophy. I'm still open to sending you a basic Philosophy book to help you out. Totally serious.

By the nature of this topic, the only demonstration available would be an act of God - like a bolt of lightening.

You've kept saying that there's no physical evidence of a god. Now you're saying there can be. Which is it. Because we can definitely investigate physical evidence.

And the only way to experience the other eternal realm of the spirit of God...is to die.

Which means it's unknowable. Which means the claim is the same as any unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Arsenios]

If someone else claims to "see" another realm that can't be demonstrated,
how do you, as a believer in a realm that seemingly can't be demonstrated,
justify your disbelief in what they see?
What if their realm contradicts the realm you believe in?

We look to the fruits...

But the larger point is a good one I used to use - IF there IS a NON-material world which is unapproachable by natural man, then HOW can it possibly relate to the material world, and how can it be verified in reference to materiality? Psycho-epistemology is a treacherous spiritual art... Which is why Christ incarnated in the flesh to show the Way... There are dark spiritual arts in this fallen human condition in which we take our short lives...

The argument against materialism has one big foot in the camp of human history where atheism has an abysmally smallish historical footprint... People are naturally faithful... Those who are not are normally consigned to prisons... They tend to become criminals...

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You believe mind is a function of (brain) matter...

The key words which you seem to have missed are "a function of"...

Do you remember telling us that mind is a function of the brain?

Yep, and that doesn't make you a Nihilist.

There are a lot of its branches, each with its very own long-winded definitions...

The basic meaning that underlies them all is the Latin root: NIHIL

NIHIL means NOTHING...

Nihilism doesn't JUST mean "nothing". There's a bit more to it than that. You know, the same offer goes to you that I've extended to ScottA. I've got lots of Philosophy books from my college days. I can send you one if you'd like.

And you are, after all, a nothing-ist, because you believe mind is a function of the brain...

"Nothing-ist" really isn't a thing. If you mean Nihilist, I've said I'm not one of those. And the funny thing is that you're saying it like it's a dirty word. I wonder why...

And the brain disintegrates at death...
So you look forward to the disintegration and loss of your mind...

Non sequitur.

All materialism is nihilism...

Non sequitur.

And living in the fear thereof...

I'm not living in any fear. Are you sure you aren't projecting?

 

[Arsenios]

Which means it's unknowable. [because one must die to know God]
Which means the claim is the same as any unsubstantiated claim.

Only so if you cling to this life of death in which you live...
One must die to death in order to live in Life...
Think Baptism...

Arsenios

 

[bhsmte]

Only so if you cling to this life of death in which you live...
One must die to death in order to live in Life...
Think Baptism...

Arsenios

Well, you can believe that if it works for you.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

We look to the fruits...

And if Person A says "I can see that your fruits lead to the obvious conclusion that what you believe isn't true."

What then?

But the larger point is a good one I used to use - IF there IS a NON-material world which is unapproachable by natural man, then HOW can it possibly relate to the material world, and how can it be verified in reference to materiality? Psycho-epistemology is a treacherous spiritual art... Which is why Christ incarnated in the flesh to show the Way... There are dark spiritual arts in this fallen human condition in which we take our short lives...

I believe that you believe this, but can you demonstrate it?

People are naturally faithful... Those who are not are normally consigned to prisons... They tend to become criminals...

Faithfulness does not point to an existent god, which I think you would agree with, seeing as there are countless people who believe contradicting claims about gods.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Think Baptism...

I'll think about baptism when I have some indication that any god is real.

 

[Arsenios]

Yep, and that doesn't make you a Nihilist.



Nihilism doesn't JUST mean "nothing". There's a bit more to it than that.

Nihilism = Nothing-ism

You are in your life only the Sheriff of Nottingham

You know, the same offer goes to you that I've extended to ScottA. I've got lots of Philosophy books from my college days. I can send you one if you'd like.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and burned it...

"Nothing-ist" really isn't a thing.

You are beginning to understand!!!

If you mean Nihilist,

Same term, different language...

I've said I'm not one of those.

I have proven that you ARE a nothingist...

And the funny thing is that you're saying it like it's a dirty word.

Nothing to it!

I wonder why...

Well, Aristotle did say that Philosophy begins with WONDER...

Non sequitur.Non sequitur.

So you DO know that NIHIL = NOTHING!

I'm not living in any fear. Are you sure you aren't projecting?

Vanity and superiority and condescension are prima facia for fear...

quid, erat, splat!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And if Person A says "I can see that your fruits lead to the obvious conclusion that what you believe isn't true."

Happens all the time...

What then?

We bless them and pray for them and release them on their way...

I believe that you believe this, but can you demonstrate it?

We commemorate today an Alaskan native Saint Yakov, half Russian, half Aleut, I believe, but maybe half Indian... A Priest, whose wife died, so he loaded his belongings on a sled in 40 below zero weather, dog-sick and weak, and traveled for the rest of his life from village to village, living in constant prayer and doing the Divine Liturgy in each of them and staying for a week and then moving on to the next, until he died...

A martyr in the Greek is a witness...

New category of evidence for you, I know...

Faithfulness does not point to an existent god,

That contradicts the consistent witness of existent gods, and in Christianity, of The God of all creation...

which I think you would agree with, seeing as there are countless people who believe contradicting claims about gods.

There are demonic forces everywhere who manage to get worshiped, and idols, and on and on... These are legion... The God of Christians is one God, and does not have small isolated shiekdoms of powers, but has ALL power in heaven and on earth... So you will find many contradicting claims... And infiltration into the Body of Christ on earth as well... It is a war in the great reality quest that the Christian Walk is... That Walk is genuine and worthwhile... It is not for sissies...

Love ya, Bro!

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Nihilism = Nothing-ism

You are in your life only the Sheriff of Nottingham

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and burned it...

You are beginning to understand!!!

Same term, different language...

I have proven that you ARE a nothingist...

Nothing to it!

Well, Aristotle did say that Philosophy begins with WONDER...

So you DO know that NIHIL = NOTHING!

Vanity and superiority and condescension are prima facia for fear...

quid, erat, splat!

Arsenios

Oh my...

The Dunning Kruger is strong with this one...

 

[Arsenios]

Oh my...

The Dunning Kruger is strong with this one...

Can I send you some philosophy books?

How 'bout dem 'Ristotelians?!?

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

We bless them and pray for them and release them on their way...

And the third party observer (rightly) believes that neither of you have made a case. So what's the point of having discussions?

We commemorate today an Alaskan native Saint Yakov, half Russian, half Aleut, I believe, but maybe half Indian... A Priest, whose wife died, so he loaded his belongings on a sled in 40 below zero weather, dog-sick and weak, and traveled for the rest of his life from village to village, living in constant prayer and doing the Divine Liturgy in each of them and staying for a week and then moving on to the next, until he died...

A martyr in the Greek is a witness...

New category of evidence for you, I know...

Oh no, I learned early on about the category of evidence called "terrible evidence" and what falls into that set. Similar to "No gods exists because my shoes are black."

That contradicts the consistent witness of existent gods, and in Christianity, of The God of all creation...

Consistent witnesses don't point to an existent god. It's a non sequitur.

There are demonic forces everywhere who manage to get worshiped, and idols, and on and on... These are legion... The God of Christians is one God, and does not have small isolated shiekdoms of powers, but has ALL power in heaven and on earth... So you will find many contradicting claims... And infiltration into the Body of Christ on earth as well... It is a war in the great reality quest that the Christian Walk is... That Walk is genuine and worthwhile... It is not for sissies...

In your opinion...

 

[Arsenios]

Oh my...

The Dunning Kruger is strong with this one...

But enough about YOU!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In your opinion...

Well, your opinion upholds the material brain that gives rise to your mind...
And looks forward to losing your mind's fleshly and material basis at death...

Can't avoid it...

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

But enough about YOU!

Arsenios

Hmmm, I think I've struck a (correct) nerve...

You seem to be the one making all the logical fallacies...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Well, your opinion worships the brain that gives rise to your mind...
And looks forward to losing your mind's fleshly and material basis at death...

Can't avoid it...

Arsenios

You realize that putting words in people's mouths is intellectually dishonest, right?

Here's an example:

"You're a Christian because you like abusing children."

Not very nice, is it?

And it's a sign to me that you don't have an actual argument.