How does God decide what is and is not moral?

[Captain Jackson]

What is God's criteria for deciding that something is or is not moral?

 

[cybermaxx12]

God does not have a criteria, he has, does, and will always know. He knows right and wrong infinatly.

 

[Captain Jackson]

Cybermaxx12,

You seem to be saying that does not decide what is and is not moral. Rather, he just "knows." Certainly someone or something must decide what is and is not moral. If God doesn't do it, then who does?

 

[cybermaxx12]

I am saying he just knows. It's like him being infinite, if you don't belive that you problaly wont belive this. Thier was never a begining to God or an end. Their was never a begining to his knowledge of right and wrong and never an end. God has never changed and neither will his knowledge of right and wrong.

 

[openeyes]

What is God's criteria for deciding that something is or is not moral?

I cannot even begin to imagine how God decides morality issues, all I can say is most issues come down to setting us (humans) apart from the rest of the animals. He gave us a conscience so we don't treat each other like beasts their own, or other species.
Hope this helps, as I don't think you will get the exact answer you seek. And most won't want to touch this question with a ten foot pole.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

What is God's criteria for deciding that something is or is not moral?

According to His perfect character.

I'm looking at your sig; I just thought I'd point out that when the Bible says God so loved the world, he is not talking quantitatively, but qualitatively. In other words, it isn't referring to the number of people, as in the whole world, but the kind of people. Those who are worldly. In and of the world.

 

[Blissman]

According to His perfect character.

I'm looking at your sig; I just thought I'd point out that when the Bible says God so loved the world, he is not talking quantitatively, but qualitatively. In other words, it isn't referring to the number of people, as in the whole world, but the kind of people. Those who are worldly. In and of the world.

Question #1
Does God love SO love his children (as in, it is so), or does He love His children so much that He sent His only Son? That is does He love non-Christians? Is His love conditional (on accepting Jesus). Does He love Jews? Wiccans? Buddists? Does He love athiests? Does He love people who believe that He is a false God? Is he patient enough to wait for those who do not believe in Him because some day in the future they may? Whitehorse, would your opinion on this be affected by your belief in predestination? Whitehorse
what is your opinion if you were wrong about predestination, but in all other ways you were a Christian? I am not critical of your belief in Predestination, rather I have another reason for asking. There are Baptists, Presbyterians,
etc., all of whom are Christian. Some Christians believe, for example, in
predestination, others do not. Perhaps some are 'wrong', or perhaps there is no 'wrong'. Seeking God and acceptance, and how you live, is all and only that is important. Allow me to assume that it was your opinion that it didn't matter if you had believed in Predestination or not. If it were so, why bother believing in Predestination (or not)?

In a different thread, someone had posted that Mother Terrisa had said that
Christ had said that all faiths lead to God. If this is true, why would anyone
not be saved if they were not Christian but rather a member of another faith?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Question #1
Does God love SO love his children (as in, it is so), or does He love His children so much that He sent His only Son? That is does He love non-Christians? Is His love conditional (on accepting Jesus). Does He love Jews? Wiccans? Buddists? Does He love athiests? Does He love people who believe that He is a false God? Is he patient enough to wait for those who do not believe in Him because some day in the future they may?

God has a kindness for all His creatures. As it is written:

Matthew 5

5:44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

5:45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

He has a permanent love and a temporary love. I admit this is painful for me. How I wish He would have saved Saul. Because I think of hell, and I don't want anyone but the worst to go there, because I'm relating to their humanity. But God does have a very good reason for it. Saul was the first king, and he led the nation of Israel into sin. He was ready to slaugher his own son. And the one who protected his kingdom. The one ordained of God as the king of promise, not only in his lifetime, but as the one who would bring forth our precious Savior.

...but I don't always think that far in advance. And God knows all things.

Anyway, back on track, God also has a permanent love. The temporary kind is for those who come to Him temporarily, and the permanent kind is for those who stay with Him permanently. And some of the most wicked people have become the most precios saints. One was a Japanese soldier who treated American prisoners of war brutally. But one of those prisoners was a Christian...God loves those he loves. As it is written:

Romans 9

9:15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Likewise, in the sense of temporary love versus permanent, regarding the king of promise:

1*Chronicles 17

17:12He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

17:13I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

17:14But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

Likewise, regarding our responsibility to remain in God's love:

John 15

15:8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

15:9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Whitehorse, would your opinion on this be affected by your belief in predestination?

Well, this is actually in the Bible. Here's one verse:

Romans 8

8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Whitehorse
what is your opinion if you were wrong about predestination, but in all other ways you were a Christian? I am not critical of your belief in Predestination, rather I have another reason for asking. There are Baptists, Presbyterians,
etc., all of whom are Christian. Some Christians believe, for example, in
predestination, others do not. Perhaps some are 'wrong', or perhaps there is no 'wrong'.

Then they should go to God. They need to consult His word. Sometimes people get sidetracked by filtering God's word into what makes sense to them. We need to instead seek God and ask Him to show us the truth. I'd been praying over a verse for maybe four years, and just a few nights received a new understanding. When we seek hard enough, God shows us.

(See scripture above for predestination.) The problem is, there's a tendency in people to miss verses that are uncomfortable, and that's what causes divisions in the body of Christ; this is what causes the factions. People have pre-formed ideas of how they want God to be, and they, wittingly or not, try to squeeze scripture into that box.

God's standards don't change, though; He requires, and rightfully so, that we seek Him on His terms. We can't reshape Him, because then it isn't Him anymore. It becomes a figment of the imagination, but it's a human tendency. And this sometimes leads people into tragic errors.

Seeking God and acceptance, and how you live, is all and only that is important. Allow me to assume that it was your opinion that it didn't matter if you had believed in Predestination or not. If it were so, why bother believing in Predestination (or not)?

Actually, the truth is what leads to all these things. You're right- seeking God is how we find the truth. But we must make knowledge of the truth through the seeking and knowledge of God the highest priority. If people do not have a proper understanding of predestination, they will either take a fatalistic view and never seek God, thinking they are still saved when they are not, and the truth may have saved them, or else they will be robbed of the assurance through faith that is able to make them stand and fall away.

Read Matthew four; we have an enemy who seeks to destroy us, but we win through knowledge of the truth. As it is writtten:

Hosea 4

4:6My people are destroyed F17 for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

But just to present this verse correctly, Israel was rejecting God's warnings and His truth, and it led them into spiritual adultery through the worship of other gods. A very high crime. But it showss how the lack of knowledge can accomplish this through the hardening of the heart. Please note: there is a difference between willing ignorance and circumstantial ignorance, on which God has mercy. Israel's in this passage was the willful kind.

To balance the equation properly:

Hebrews 5

5:1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

5:2Who can F13 have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

In a different thread, someone had posted that Mother Terrisa had said that
Christ had said that all faiths lead to God. If this is true, why would anyone
not be saved if they were not Christian but rather a member of another faith?

For starters, I admire your Berean spirit in saying, If this is true. This is a wise and holy perspective. While Mother Theresa was a godly and sacrificial woman, the answer isn't with her, but with God. And the same is true with my words: you should always be sure it matches scripture.

First of all, I do have questions about whether Mother Theresa actually said that, but whether or not she did, here is what God says about it:

John 14

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Likewise:

Matthew 7

7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And finally:

Exodus 20

20:1And God spake all these words, saying,

20:2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

20:5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

20:6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

20:7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

You ask excellent questions.

 

[Crazy Liz]

What is God's criteria for deciding that something is or is not moral?

I think this question assumes a decision-making process that may not apply to God - at least not to the degree it applies to humans.

Although the Bible records times when God changed God's mind, it also seems to indicate God has a different relatonship to time than we experience. The word "decide" implies that at one point in time something is ambiguous, then, at a certain point, one or more possibilties are cut off ("cut off" being the Latin root meaning of "decide"). It appears from scripture that God decided to send the flood in Noah's time. However, in most instnces we have no indication in scripture of God's deliberative process of choosing one of several alternatives. In fact, there are many time in scripture when God directs humans to make decision by lot. A number of these instances imply that God already had a plan. Although the humans could see several possibilities, God wanted to communicate God's wishes by controlling the outcome of the apparently random process of casting lots. From a human perspective, a decision was needed, but from God's perspective, it had already been determined.

OTOH, there are other situations in which the use of lots is directed by God to indicate the choice truly is random and arbitrary - such as the lots cast between the goats to determine which will be the Yom Kippur sacrifice and which will be the scapegoat.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, although the word "decide" can be applied to some of God's actions as revealed to us in scripture, there also seem to be instances where a human or group of humans would use a decision-making process but God does not. When it comes to defining morality, I don't see any indication of a decision-making process on God's part. Rather, on this question, I would tend to side with those who say morail decisions have more to do with human discernment of God's nature than with God's decisions.

I hope this makes sense. You asked a good question, and I thought a lot of this through as I typed. I haven't yet finally decided my own opinion on this issue.

 

[Crazy Liz]

To clarify, there are times when humans do something without deciding among several alternatives, and there are other times when humans are explicitly aware of two or more alterantives and make a choice or decision between them. When it comes to basic morality, I think most humans act on a system of morality they have adopted unconsciously, without a decision-making process. This is part of the reason discussions of some moral issues, like abortion, are so difficult. It is so rare for us to decide moral issues like this. The vast majority of our concepts of morality are adopted unconsciously, without any decision-making.

If this is true of us, it's hard for me to speculate that God made decisions about morality.

 

[jbarcher]

I think this question assumes a decision-making process that may not apply to God - at least not to the degree it applies to humans.

I see the same as well. God embodies that which is good...just, loving, merciful...there is no decision needed to be made. Then again...we cannot see the big picture very well. It is like that king who asked some blind men what the object is...it was an elephant, but they all thought it different things. So things like...why is the seemingly needless suffering...sometimes no one can answer.

 

[Blissman]

Romans 9

9:15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Question: Isn't this obvious? Isn't it like saying 'up is up' and 'down is down'? How can you extrapolate anything from this?

 

[Blissman]

Actually, the truth is what leads to all these things. You're right- seeking God is how we find the truth. But we must make knowledge of the truth through the seeking and knowledge of God the highest priority. If people do not have a proper understanding of predestination, they will either take a fatalistic view and never seek God, thinking they are still saved when they are not, and the truth may have saved them, or else they will be robbed of the assurance through faith that is able to make them stand and fall away

Whitehorse, if there is predestination, why would man need to act morally? Would man act perfectly or imperfectly? Would there be no such thing as free will?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Romans 9

9:15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Question: Isn't this obvious? Isn't it like saying 'up is up' and 'down is down'? How can you extrapolate anything from this?

Look at all the people trying to demand an explanation from God about suffering and hell. It's obvious to God, but apparently not to man. If you want to see what people were arguing that Paul was addressing, I suggest reading the whole chapter.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse, if there is predestination, why would man need to act morally? Would man act perfectly or imperfectly? Would there be no such thing as free will?

First of all, since it is in scripture, it's not a matter of whether or not it is, it's a matter of whether or not we receive what God reveals.

The truth is, it isn't God's will to keep everyone from sinning.

Romans 9:22-24



Romans 9

9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

9:23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

9:24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He reveals His commandments, the gospel, and the judgment. He gives man free will. That's what I was getting at in the post before: it isn't either predestination or free will; it's both. Take another look at that scripture about foreknowledge and predestination working *together.* Most people pick one or the other because it doesn't strike the immediate understanding. Like any great mystery, we ask God to reveal it, and we discover that God allows people to do what they want. But He has a program for it. As long as they seek, they find. But this does not preclude His sovereignty.

 

[evraftr]

Some of the thoughts that people have on this site are totaly out there if you thought about it for more then one milosecond and did well even 10min of research not even you would come up with answers for you self and stop youself from looking really stupid God doesnt love the world what kind of BS is that sereiusly and you need to take all things in context you didnt even look at the whole verse and the area that it is located take some time and think it over befor you ramble on about nothing.

 

[Blissman]

Please explain.

 

[Blissman]

Do you mean, Whitehorse, that man has free will to seek and learn the truth, but God has a plan to help man do this? How can man know what is and what is not predestined, and what is free will. If the Bible must be understood by man, there will always be some men, and also at times, perhaps all men who do not understand words on a page may mean.
There are many different versions of the Bible. There are many different denominations. There are many different men within one denomination who are 'certain' that what they know and believe to be their understanding of 'The Truth', is THE TRUTH. Perhaps it may be so that one or a few may be correct. Perhaps no one is correct. Perhaps, even Christainty is not correct, and we believe will all of our conviction that Christianity is reality. Since no mortal can know the mind of God, no mortal can know Truth itself. Perhaps Islam is truth. Perhaps no faith on earth is correct. Only God is correct. Only The Lord is truth itself.

You had said, I believe, that God has deterimed those whom would be 'rightous'.
Unless we could identifty those who were, so that we might learn from them, of what value is it for us if no one were rightous? They may walk amoung us, but they would seem no differerent t han anyone else.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Do you mean, Whitehorse, that man has free will to seek and learn the truth, but God has a plan to help man do this?

A qualified yes. When it comes to things eternal, God either allows someone understanding or He allows them to continue in blindness. He's sovereign. And we cannot understand truly without the Holy Spirit revealing something. People read the words, but to them it is just a dead book, and here's why:

God works in paradoxes that seem to make no sense on first glance, but on careful examination, it's always true. For example, it is more blessed to give than to receive. The wisdom that comes from man says the way to get is to...well, go get. But the true way to get is to give. But normally we wouldn't think of that, because giving seems to be the opposite of getting, so it would normally be the avoided and nonsensical way. But in reality, this is where true wisdom is. It's in the paradoxes of God.

That God could dwell inside the human body of a tiny baby? At first, this may seem preposterous. Until one knows that God has the power to be small. But we human creatures tend to believe appearances, more than reality. And we cut ourselves off from all kinds of truth this way. And that's part of the reason some people can't find it, even if they read the pages of the Bible. Either they reject it as distasteful, or they cannot see because they do not have the Holy Spirit awakening them to these things. But with the Holy Spirit, these things are revealed. Be that as it may, there are even holy people, prophests, who do not receive certain information because it isn't God's time to reveal it.

As it is written:

Matthew 13:10-17

13:10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

13:12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13:13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

13:14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

13:15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

13:16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

13:17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Also, for a fuller explanation, see I Corinthians 1. It's too long to post, but it gives a much fuller explanation

The Bible reveals a couple of things that are important, that those in Christ can do. This is the free will end of the equation. We ask for wisdom through faith [James 1:5-8], and we fear God [Job 28:28].

How can man know what is and what is not predestined, and what is free will.

All of it is both. God predestines, but He helps us in our zealous attempts. He does not tempt anyone. But people make their own decisions as to what they are going to do under any given circumstance.

It's kind of like working in human resources. You may already know who you're going to hire before the interviews begin, but you do give everyone a chance to present themselves. The free-will end of it is that, if a candidate had done a well-enough job of convincing you they were right for the job, you would have given it to them. But because they were rude the first time they met you and they're applying for a customer service job where they'll be the first person the customer meets, or maybe you checked a reference and you believe the person has been accurately represented by all as being chronically late or pulling no-shows, through this foreknowledge you make the predetermination that this person isn't getting the job. You call all into the interview, but only select the number you want. For many are called, but few are chosen [Matthew 22:14].

However, with God it isn't just about being able to see into the future, although he knew everything before the world began. In His case, everything works out precisely how He wanted it to be. And always for a good reason, though we cannot see it.

If the Bible must be understood by man, there will always be some men, and also at times, perhaps all men who do not understand words on a page may mean.

Yes, they need to be in the conditions of knowledge (saved, obedient, inquisitive, hungry for truth, and willing to accept it) and then seek in the way prescribed by the Lord.

There are many different versions of the Bible. There are many different denominations. There are many different men within one denomination who are 'certain' that what they know and believe to be their understanding of 'The Truth', is THE TRUTH. Perhaps it may be so that one or a few may be correct. Perhaps no one is correct. Perhaps, even Christainty is not correct, and we believe will all of our conviction that Christianity is reality. Since no mortal can know the mind of God, no mortal can know Truth itself. Perhaps Islam is truth. Perhaps no faith on earth is correct. Only God is correct. Only The Lord is truth itself.

But God has revealed the truth, as we know from the word that He has. And we can have it. Yes, there are many translations and denominations. It was like I was saying in an earlier post, truth is not the highest priority for many even who profess Christianity, so they squeeze scripture into their box. They do not understand all, so they take half and think that is the whole truth. And it leads to serious error that can cost many their souls because of this faulty understanding.

And this is what causes division in the body of Christ. It's what's going on in the human heart that dictates a lot of how we apporach this subject of truth. And that's why there are so many fudged translations. Maybe someone doesn't have a seminary degree or undertand the original language, but he might be a Christian and gets the probably well-meaning idea to make scripture understandable. And rather than seeking, learning, and then teaching the truth, they change God's word to make it more comprehensible. One guy was talking about a translation he read that had been written in inner-city street lingo. It is a comic tragedy. Funny at first, but horrifying when you realize that was God's word they added the "yo!" and "dogz!" to. Man should never presume to do this! But, they do. And sometimes it is purely out of ignorance. Most of the time I'm sure they mean very, very well. But are terribly misguided.

You had said, I believe, that God has deterimed those whom would be 'rightous'.
Unless we could identifty those who were, so that we might learn from them, of what value is it for us if no one were rightous? They may walk amoung us, but they would seem no differerent t han anyone else.

Well, that's just it. God didn't mean for everyone to be. But He did choose some. And here is how we can know:

John 3

3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3:8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In other words, you cannot see the Spirit, but you can see the effects of the Spirit in people. We are all sinners. We all stumble in many ways. But if christ is there, you'll know. And if you don't, they may be new in their profession or struggling with a certain area, but in time they will be sanctified and it will be revealed.

 

[Modus]

I'm about to go to bed and I don't have time to read through all of this post thoroughly, so I apologize if this has been covered. But I would like to pose this question. Becuase God is omniscient, could it be that God just knew that the effects of sin were destructive and that choosing to do something wrong would cause destruction instead of life?

If God is Omniscient then He certainly would recognize something that is moraly wrong as destructive and therefore would not call it good.