How does God decide what is and is not moral?

[The Fireman]

I think this question assumes a decision-making process that may not apply to God - at least not to the degree it applies to humans.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, although the word "decide" can be applied to some of God's actions as revealed to us in scripture, there also seem to be instances where a human or group of humans would use a decision-making process but God does not. When it comes to defining morality, I don't see any indication of a decision-making process on God's part. Rather, on this question, I would tend to side with those who say morail decisions have more to do with human discernment of God's nature than with God's decisions.

I hope this makes sense. You asked a good question, and I thought a lot of this through as I typed. I haven't yet finally decided my own opinion on this issue.

Wonderfuly said Crazy Liz. I couldn't have said it as well as you did. I will keep this post and remember how you said what I have been thinking.

Your Catholic Brother

The Fireman

 

[burrow_owl]

The OP is an example of a famous paradox first identified by Plato/Socrates - do the Gods do what is right because it's right, or is the right merely what the Gods do. If the former, what is right is logically prior to God, if the latter, then what is moral is essentially arbitrary (technically, what is right would be merely contingent). Anyone remember what the paradox is called?

Update: turns out I wasn't feeling as lazy as I thought I was. It's called the Euthyphro Dilemma. Here's a nice summation of it.

 

[revolutio]

This is one of my main questions for God if I ever have a chance to chat with him. Is he above good and evil?

 

[Salsa_1960]

If God loved the world, then he would allow many into his paradise. Few will enter his paradise, however (Matthew 7:14). Therefore the Christian God does not love the world.

The fallacy in your signature is that God does allow all into paradise. Not all, however, choose to receive Him.


Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

 

[Anthony]

What is God's criteria for deciding that something is or is not moral?

That is just it, He doesn't decide what is and what it not moral. He established his standards and leaves it at that. It's man who want things and events to be given a ruling on. We usually don't like God standards as they apply to our lives so we are always looking for some loop-hole or justification for our choices.

God doesn't run a morals approval office; he gives us a life-time yard stick and expects us to do the calculations.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I'm just wondering where the final judgment would fall into the equation. Do you feel God uses a standard outside of Himself?

 

[Crazy Liz]

I'm just wondering where the final judgment would fall into the equation. Do you feel God uses a standard outside of Himself?

That's a really interesting question, Whitehorse.

Thinking of Mathew 7:1-5, I think Jesus says humans get to choose the standard by which they will be judged. Personally, I would prefer to receive God's favor merely because we love each other. If I wish to be judged this way, it behooves me to judge others the same way. See also Matthew 18.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Well, its' true that the saints will take part in the judgment, but I'm referring to how God will judge the world at the Great Judgment.

There are a lot of verses on judgment from the believers, and there are admonitions on both sides, to judge, and not to judge, and there are specific conditions for each. But that is a big topic, so I'll have to save that for another time.
I do like those verses you selected, though. They're beautiful.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Thank you, Whitehorse.

I actually had a thought a few months ago about the last parable in Matthew 18. I imagined Jesus separating the sheep and the goats. Some of the sheep were surprised to see their enemies on their side. Jesus said, "I forgave them, and their mansion is right next door to yours. But you can go join the goats if you'd rather."

I don't know that this really is the best metaphor, but I found it helpful to think about for a time.

 

[dnich163]

Talk about an unanswerable question !!

We humans don't have the capacity to know the mind of God fully.

God is mystery; one of the first principles of the Church.

David

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I'd say that, since God is love, and nothing exists that did not exist, that He is the author of morality as well.

Scripture backup:

Job 28

20*Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding? 21*Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air. 22*Destruction and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears. 23*God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof. 24*For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; 25*To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. 26*When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder: 27*Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out. 28*And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

We can see from this, that God is looking through things of His own creation. There is nothing that exists outside of God. Since He sets the rules, we can see that He is author of all things.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Bliss, we talked before about the law and its purposes. Tonight I found something else as I was doing my scripture reading. It regards a purpose in God's law. It is there, at least in part, to show the riches of God's grace and mercy by working the rebellion of the human condition:

Romans 5

5:20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

5:21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Since you had asked about it earlier, I thought you might find this interesting.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

PS- I almost forgot: we can see from the second verse that the sinful condition brought about by the law (brought about by our inability to keep this law) shows us our need for Christ. So God uses it (and the sin it fosters) to turn people to Him through Jesus Christ.

This way God can be joined with His people through sanctification. This great mercy ends with the great wedding feast in Heaven where the sons and daughters of God become co-heirs with Christ. Now, I don't know what all that entails, but since Jesus is God, that's a pretty good inheritance. And we share it with Him. Not too shabby, I daresay. And who would think that would have come from the law. So that which brings death, ultimately brings life. Another paradox. Cool, huh?

 

[Salsa_1960]

Bliss, we talked before about the law and its purposes. Tonight I found something else as I was doing my scripture reading. It regards a purpose in God's law. It is there, at least in part, to show the riches of God's grace and mercy by working the rebellion of the human condition:

Romans 5
5:20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

5:21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Since you had asked about it earlier, I thought you might find this interesting.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

PS- I almost forgot: we can see from the second verse that the sinful condition brought about by the law (brought about by our inability to keep this law) shows us our need for Christ. So God uses it (and the sin it fosters) to turn people to Him through Jesus Christ.

This way God can be joined with His people through sanctification. This great mercy ends with the great wedding feast in Heaven where the sons and daughters of God become co-heirs with Christ. Now, I don't know what all that entails, but since Jesus is God, that's a pretty good inheritance. And we share it with Him. Not too shabby, I daresay. And who would think that would have come from the law. So that which brings death, ultimately brings life. Another paradox. Cool, huh?

Along those lines, here is another take on the purpose of God's law from the perspective of the New Covenant (New Testament):

Galatians 3
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
​

 

[Blissman]

23

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

(empasis added)

Does this mean that we are lawless? Earlier, I believe that it was Whitehorse, it had been posted here that Jesus had said that we are still bound by the Ten Commandments (some of them - not a graven image. A cross is a graven image. Likewise, we are not compelled by God's law to rest on the Saboth). Whitehorse had said that Jesus had spake that he was here to explain the laws, and not reject them.

 

[Blissman]

Can man question God's Truth? It had been said several times that man cannot question God, and ask Him to prove Himself. Perhaps, from scripture, we may. The scriptures were not penned by God. They were written by men. What we know God to be from scripture, may not be the word of God. As men had written scripture - put pen to paper (or gold to leather - many years ago books were written by pounding thin gold on leather. We had discovered a hebrew text intact. It was on leather pages. Thin gold had been pounded in as letters. As I recall, it was written about 300 AD. In the dry climate, it being leather survived the years). Since men had actually written the text of the Bible, and since there had also been many translations, it is possible for there to be many changes that had been introduced by man. This may imply that man can question the validity of the scriptures. Are they God's word? Can we know God from scripture?

 

[Salsa_1960]

Hebrew 8:7-13 talks about the New Covenant, Blissman. It isn't that we are to forget about God's principles. Rather, God's laws are now written on our hearts.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:

"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

We are not saved by obeying the law, but by grace. If we are saved, however, because of our love for God, we will want to obey Him.

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 6:14,15
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Galatians 5:4,5
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.


​

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

(empasis added)

Does this mean that we are lawless? Earlier, I believe that it was Whitehorse, it had been posted here that Jesus had said that we are still bound by the Ten Commandments (some of them - not a graven image. A cross is a graven image. Likewise, we are not compelled by God's law to rest on the Saboth). Whitehorse had said that Jesus had spake that he was here to explain the laws, and not reject them.

Yes, we do need to keep God's commandments-*all* the moral law. That's all ten. If you read Hebrews four you will find there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people-we are testifying to eternal rest when we do this. (The sabbath, the Bible says, is Saturday.) When I have more time tonight I'll get you the scripture verses. I didn't say the cross was a graven image, though; I'm curious why you feel that way.

Sand, yes-the wonderful scripture you gave once again points us to the Savior through the law and what it brought about. Glorious, huh?

Bliss, yes. Man is lawless. Man does not want to submit to God unless indwellt by the Holy Spirit. In fact, the law induced lawleesness. THis is to point us to Christ by the knowledge of our condition.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

PS- Jesus didn't just come to explain the laws. He came as a fulfillment of those laws. And He also said not the least part of the law would be abolished, THis is also stated in Ronmans. We do not abolish the law; rather, we uphold it. But the ceremonial has been fulfillled in CHrist, ubt also the gentiles are part of the covenant, and therefore the separation part of the ceremonial law has been fulfilled. Gentiles are now clean through Christ. More tonight.

 

[Blissman]

Yes, we do need to keep God's commandments-*all* the moral law. That's all ten. If you read Hebrews four you will find there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people-we are testifying to eternal rest when we do this. (The sabbath, the Bible says, is Saturday.) When I have more time tonight I'll get you the scripture verses. I didn't say the cross was a graven image, though; I'm curious why you feel that way.

Sand, yes-the wonderful scripture you gave once again points us to the Savior through the law and what it brought about. Glorious, huh?

Bliss, yes. Man is lawless. Man does not want to submit to God unless indwellt by the Holy Spirit. In fact, the law induced lawleesness. THis is to point us to Christ by the knowledge of our condition.

The cross is a graven image because it is a cast object. Remember what had happened while Moses was on the mountain getting the Ten Commandments?
Gold was cast in to idols. While a cross is not an idol as it were an animal, a cross is a cast image. It is prayed to like an idol (such as an animal). So while it represents Christ, the cross is a graven image. So too, likewise, would be any artistic rendition of Christ, Mary, a manger, etc..

It is interesting to note that in Islam, art work, such as "David", is forbidden, because it may be a graven image.

I find that the many faiths of the world are interesting, and amplify one another. Man is blessed by our many ways of seeking the Truth. Perhaps it is true that all faiths are paths that lead to the truth. May The Lord help all of us find The Truth. Hopefully we will choose to behave as good fellow citizens of mankind in our mutual seeking. We are all doing the same thing, searching, seeking, learning, finding. Athiests too, seek the truth of what life means, and why we are here. Aside from thirsts that stem from faith, philosphical questions are common to all mankind. How wonderful it is that we are equally human, asking, seeking, confused, but wanting to be in the same arms of something for which there is are no words.


One thing that I do quite understand is when you say that man is lawless. Laws, if they are followed, cause man not to violate a law. So why is it wrong to obey laws that keep a man from transgressing? One the one hand people cite that the 10 commandments, and law are to be followed. On the other hand,


Galatians 5:4,5
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

Why can't someone be justified by law? If laws prevent one man from any transgression, and another finds his rightousness by Grace, have not both men lived the same way?


Peace and blessings to all the world.

 

[Salsa_1960]

Why can't someone be justified by law? If laws prevent one man from any transgression, and another finds his rightousness by Grace, have not both men lived the same way?

Because though we are told to obey the law (to be holy), on our own, we are unable. We fail. We sin daily.

Romans 3:21-26
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 6:20-23
20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​