How does Eschatology effect attitude? (for men)

[rwb]

Assuming this scenario shouldn't it also mean they were already antichristian before the 7th trumpet sounds? Keeping in mind, meaning billions perhaps. Per this scenario, before the 7th trumpet sounds, we would be in the time of the millennium. Which means billions are already antichristian before satan is even loosed. Is it possible for billions to be antichristian without it involving satan deceiving any of them? And what does Revelation 20:3 record? It records this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

How then did billions become antichristian during Amil's proposed millennium when the text is telling us that satan can't deceive nations during the millennium?

Satan does not work alone! He has minions through the beasts, false prophets, and false workers, like wolves in sheep's clothing, liars, deceivers etc. all in human form, controlled by Satan's power that he gives to the beasts.

The problem is that you seem to think that when Satan is bound there will be no more deception in the world. But that is not true because as I have already said, Satan does not work alone. And even while in the pit he is a king ruling over his kingdom of darkness and death.

Revelation 9:1-11 (KJV) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The first thing that come to my mind when I read this is honestly, you don't really understand the main eschatological positions. And it is possible to be a saved, Bible believing, Bible reading Christian and not understand eschatology.

Actually, I do generally understand the eschatological positions, and I don't think any of them are perfect nor fit together ultra "nicely." Y'know, it probably best to assume to hold off criticizing another person until after you come to understand their theological mindset and how they've gotten there.

There is a Pastor I watch online who was instrumental in convincing me Calvinism is true and I watch his videos. I later found out he has been preaching in churches for about thirty or fourty years and has never really paid attention to the book of revelation. And a person can't have their eschatology faculties together without studying revelation.

Ok. Revelation has been one of my favorite books for over 30 years, however I'm not going to say that I think I have it figured out and I also don't think anyone else has it all figured out. Along with that, I also think that a measure of grace is fitting to offer others where Eschatology (and much of Christian Theology on the whole) is concerned, especially when no one person has the perfect answers for any of it. Generally, I just like to accept everyone who is a fellow Trinitarian Christian and see them as fellow brethren on a journey similar to mine in many respects. I guess it's an "attitudinal" thing as much as it is a position on our mutual Christian faith.

 

[DavidPT]

The problem is that you seem to think that when Satan is bound there will be no more deception in the world. But that is not true because as I have already said, Satan does not work alone. And even while in the pit he is a king ruling over his kingdom of darkness and death.

The way I tend to view things is like such. Before the thousand years there is deception taking place in the world, meaning after the fall. During the thousand years there is no longer deception taking place in the world, period. After the thousand years there is once again deception taking place in the world. Then following that there will never be deception taking place in the world ever again. Also the way I tend to see things, some things have a way of repeating.

Such as.

1) Adam is created then Eve. No deception taking place in the world at this point.

2) Then satan deceives Eve. Now there is deception taking place in the world.

3) Then satan is bound, therefore, no more deception taking place in the world.

4) satan is loosed, therefore, deception once again is taking place in the world.

5) satan is cast into the LOF after the beast and false prophet were already cast into at a much earlier time. Now there is no longer any deception taking place in the world ever again.

We then have 1) repeating via 3) and 5), 2) repeating via 4).

You instead apparently see it as such. 2), 3) and 4) all mean deception is still taking place in the world, thus giving the impression satan's binding is useless since there is still deception taking place though satan is bound in order to prevent deception from taking place in the world.

 

[rwb]

The way I tend to view things is like such. Before the thousand years there is deception taking place in the world, meaning after the fall. During the thousand years there is no longer deception taking place in the world, period. After the thousand years there is once again deception taking place in the world. Then following that there will never be deception taking place in the world ever again. Also the way I tend to see things, some things have a way of repeating.

Do you understand why there was no deception in the world before Satan deceived Eve? It's because they had no knowledge of good or evil, because prior to Satan deceiving them they had not eaten of the forbidden tree. The tree of knowledge of good and evil. Whether Satan's little season or time likened to a thousand years, how are those in unbelief going to return to the time when God created man without knowing good or evil?

Mankind, apart from Christ can never return to that pristine time before sin entered the world and death through sin in this age/time/world. In this world we will always have tribulation and anguish and suffering, and without Christ death. Satan's work of deceiving mankind has already happened in the beginning days when God created all things. Apart from Christ man will always be deceived in this world. The purpose for Satan's binding is not to undo the deception that Satan has already introduced unto mankind. The cross and resurrection binds Satan to prevent him from deceiving unsaved Gentiles as he had Adam and Eve at creation. Since the cross and resurrection Gentiles of faith, like Jews of faith according to God's grace can hear the Gospel, and through the power of the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sin, they may believe Christ and turn to Him for eternal life.

 

[All Glory To God]

The reason I embrace the doctrines taught through Amillennialism is because it is the only end-time doctrine that does not force contradiction into the Word of God. Contradictions, more than I believe anything else definitely affects one eschatological perspective.

Well, one of the problems Amill has is it talks about a literal anti-Christ in the last time. I do not see that in scripture. I see the word anti-Christ but not in the way Premill and Amill claim. And if their is not literally future anti-Christ, this means it happens historically.

 

[All Glory To God]

Actually, I do generally understand the eschatological positions, and I don't think any of them are perfect nor fit together ultra "nicely." Y'know, it probably best to assume to hold off criticizing another person until after you come to understand their theological mindset and how they've gotten there.

Ok. Revelation has been one of my favorite books for over 30 years, however I'm not going to say that I think I have it figured out and I also don't think anyone else has it all figured out. Along with that, I also think that a measure of grace is fitting to offer others where Eschatology (and much of Christian Theology on the whole) is concerned, especially when no one person has the perfect answers for any of it. Generally, I just like to accept everyone who is a fellow Trinitarian Christian and see them as fellow brethren on a journey similar to mine in many respects. I guess it's an "attitudinal" thing as much as it is a position on our mutual Christian faith.

Relax I wasn't criticising you. I just just thought you didn't have a solid understanding of eschatology when you said ''general'' but maybe you do. Does your eschatology have a name?

 

[rwb]

Well, one of the problems Amill has is it talks about a literal anti-Christ in the last time. I do not see that in scripture. I see the word anti-Christ but not in the way Premill and Amill claim. And if their is not literally future anti-Christ, this means it happens historically.

I don't, and I am Amillennial. I believe that antichrist is the title given to whosoever is not for Christ is against Christ. That is what antichrist is defined as. And John tells us there are many antichrists. I believe it's possible to hold to the main tenants of any doctrinal position without embracing the whole. We see this from just about all who post in these forums whether professing to Amill, Premill, Postmill, or Preterisim.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Relax I wasn't criticising you. I just just thought you didn't have a solid understanding of eschatology when you said ''general'' but maybe you do. Does your eschatology have a name?

Ok. No problem. I appreciate the clarification.

At the present time I'm not a firm subscriber of any kind of "systematic" handling of Eschatology, but honestly speaking, I lean toward a kind of loose, historicized kind of old style Premillenialism (not Dispensationalism), but with this approach I'm only more or less existentially engaged. I'm always open to being wrong and open to investigating any additional or alternative angles I can. [Hence the reason that I, like so many others here, have so many books on this subject ... ]

And if you feel that Amill Post-mill is best as an explanation, I'm not going to attempt to dissuade you from that. For all I know, it could end up being correct.

 

[keras]

And if you feel that Amill is best as an explanation, I'm not going to attempt to dissuade you from that. For all I know, it could end up being correct.

AMill is very simply and totally refuted but just reading Revelation 20:1-7
The thousand year period to come after Jesus has Returned and made Satan incapable of any further deceiving of people, is plainly stated. Making those Prophesies mean anything other than what the clearly say, is gross error.

There are other proofs of this wonderful time of Jesus reigning as King, from Jerusalem. Like Zechariah 14:16-21 It is what will happen.

I would suggest to those who do believe that we are in the Millennium now and when Jesus Returns, He will totally destroy the heavens and earth; to keep those ideas to themselves. as promoting them may mean a loss for them.

 

[wonderkins]

AMill is very simply and totally refuted but just reading Revelation 20:1-7
The thousand year period to come after Jesus has Returned and made Satan incapable of any further deceiving of people, is plainly stated. Making those Prophesies mean anything other than what the clearly say, is gross error.

There are other proofs of this wonderful time of Jesus reigning as King, from Jerusalem. Like Zechariah 14:16-21 It is what will happen.

I would suggest to those who do believe that we are in the Millennium now and when Jesus Returns, He will totally destroy the heavens and earth; to keep those ideas to themselves. as promoting them may mean a loss for them.

Does revelation 20:1-7 say there will be a physical kingdom on earth?

Don't you believe Jesus is king now? He said all authority over heaven and earth have been given to himin Matthew 28:18.

In Revelation 21, the angel says "I will show you the bride", and then proceeds to show him the new Jerusalem. He had just described the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven adorned as a bride. 21:3 says God's dwelling place is with men.

What do you do with Matthew 16:28

[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Was Jesus wrong? Are those people still alive on the earth somewhere today? Or was Jesus correct and that happened? I would really like an answer to that. Most people just move right past it.

As you said above, if it's plainly stated and you make it mean something else, then it's gross error. Matthew 16:28 is plainly stated. You can do the same with Matthew 10:23 and 24:34

 

[keras]

Does revelation 20:1-7 say there will be a physical kingdom on earth?

Yes, during the thousand years after Jesus Returns.
It is described as an amazing time of peace and prosperity. Psalms 46:8-11, Psalms 47:1-9, Psalms 48:1-14, Isaiah 11:6-9, Micah 4:1-5, +

Don't you believe Jesus is king now? He said all authority over heaven and earth have been given to himin Matthew 28:18.

Jesus has received the authority, but has not yet taken up the Throne of David on earth.

What do you do with Matthew 16:28

As those who were alive in the 1st Century did die before Jesus Returned, then at that time Jesus must have thought He would Return soon. As did the Apostles. But then; only God knew when: Matthew 24:36
Now; with the benefit of hindsight, we can know, at least the season.

As for plain statements in the Bible, your objections to their literal interpretation, are overruled, as all: other than obvious metaphors and allegories, can and will be literally fulfilled.

 

[wonderkins]

As those who were alive in the 1st Century did die before Jesus Returned, then at that time Jesus must have thought He would Return soon. As did the Apostles. But then; only God knew when: Matthew 24:36
Now; with the benefit of hindsight, we can know, at least the season.

So in your conclusion, Jesus was wrong. Or he gave a false prophecy. There is no other way to take what you said.

 

[rwb]

So in your conclusion, Jesus was wrong. Or he gave a false prophecy. There is no other way to take what you said.

Matthew 16:28 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I think it's safe to say Christ was not wrong, nor did He give false prophesy. If we look at the context of Matthew 16, we may be able to determine what Christ meant when He said some of THEM would not die till they see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Perhaps Christ spoke of those with Him witnessing His resurrection from the dead, proving the Kingdom of God had indeed come in glory and power. After all He had already said His Kingdom had come.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The gospel of Mark helps confirm this understanding of the verse because he adds "the Kingdom of God come with POWER." To resurrect from the dead was most certainly a demonstration of coming with power, wouldn't you agree?

Mark 9:1 (KJV) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

 

[wonderkins]

Matthew 16:28 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I think it's safe to say Christ was not wrong, nor did He give false prophesy. If we look at the context of Matthew 16, we may be able to determine what Christ meant when He said some of THEM would not die till they see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Perhaps Christ spoke of those with Him witnessing His resurrection from the dead, proving the Kingdom of God had indeed come in glory and power. After all He had already said His Kingdom had come.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The gospel of Mark helps confirm this understanding of the verse because he adds "the Kingdom of God come with POWER." To resurrect from the dead was most certainly a demonstration of coming with power, wouldn't you agree?

Mark 9:1 (KJV) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Well I think we actually agree. I'm postmillenial. I believe we're in Jesus's kingdom. I was just saying based on keras response one would have to assume he thinks Jesus was wrong.

 

[keras]

So in your conclusion, Jesus was wrong. Or he gave a false prophecy. There is no other way to take what you said.

As I pointed out in Matthew 24:36, Jesus didn't then know the Plan of the Father, of the 2000 year Church age.
However: rwb in #73, makes a good case for how it will be those who see the Kingdom come with power, who will see it all. Matthew 24:33-34

 

[wonderkins]

As I pointed out in Matthew 24:36, Jesus didn't then know the Plan of the Father, of the 2000 year Church age.
However: rwb in #73, makes a good case for how it will be those who see the Kingdom come with power, who will see it all. Matthew 24:33-34

Then say it plainly. Jesus said something specific would happen, and you're suggesting what he said didn't happen. Which by deuteronomy standards, Jesus would be a false prophet.

But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
— Deuteronomy 18:20-22

I believe that what Jesus said would happen is exactly what happened.


I'm sure you see my point. You're only applying your rule of "plainly stated" to what fits your views on end times. When I apply your rule to the verses I presented, then the rule goes out the window.

 

[keras]

I believe that what Jesus said would happen is exactly what happened.

Your point is invalid.
Like all the Prophets, Jesus, at that time; was not privy to Gods timing of future events. But by the time Jesus gave the Revelation to John, He was!

that prophet shall die.

He did.

 

[wonderkins]

Your point is invalid.
Like all the Prophets, Jesus, at that time; was not privy to Gods timing of future events. But by the time Jesus gave the Revelation to John, He was!

He did.

Yikes.

 

[keras]

He did.

Of course I didn't mean that was why Jesus died.
Please note; virtually ALL the Prophesies are in present tense, or read as soon to happen events.
They are in God's timing, not ours. Only now, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see the truth of when their fulfilment can take place.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you understand why there was no deception in the world before Satan deceived Eve? It's because they had no knowledge of good or evil, because prior to Satan deceiving them they had not eaten of the forbidden tree.

While that is obviously true, thus I do understand that, the point I was trying to make is this, though. First there is no deception taking place. But not because satan was not already devising a plan, but that the opportunity wasn't there yet, not until he encountered Eve, recorded in Genesis 3. In a similar way, when satan is bound a thousand years, it's not that he isn't already devising a plan how to deceive the nations again, it's that the opportunity is not there yet, not until he is loosed first.

Amils' interpretation of his thousand year binding contradicts this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. You argue that satan doesn't operate alone. But that is already plainly obvious since satan is only one being and that he can't be in more than one place at a time, therefore, he has to operate through others in order to affect as many people as he does. But every time, though?

What about when satan initially fell and convinced billions of angels to follow him? He didn't do that through the beast and false prophet, he did that all by himself. The point being, if Premil is correct that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, which means the beast and fp would already be in the LOF when satan is loosed, satan doesn't need the beast and fp to deceive the ones meant in Revelation 20:8 anymore than he needed them when he deceived billions of angels to follow him when he initially fell.