How do you know for sure you are saved?

[CCWoody]

Only God knows those who will come to Him for salvation.

Actually, I would state it a bit differently: Only God knows those whom he will draw to himself for salvation.



I think that PE is laboring under an amalgamation of his beliefs and ours. You see, it does seem that, in his mind, if God has elected only some to be saved, that there would be others who would freely come to God for salvation only to be turned away because they were not Elected. It needs to be stated that, with our election comes even the desire for salvation. Those who are not among the Elect will never come to the Lord in any meaningful way for salvation. As the blessed Saint Augustine notes:

"We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.


​

It may very well be that PE thinks that, because anyone can come to God on his own, if our doctrine of Election is the doctrine of the Bible then you would have to know before you are saved and a believer if you are one of the special lucky ones. Otherwise, you will get turned away by God. Of course, as Augustine notes, we are not chosen because we believe but that we might believe. And so our election carries with it the promise that the Lord will surely see that we will be brought into the fold.


This might also explain PE's confusion about how, specifically we can know that we are among the Elect. You see, I think that, in his confusion, true belief is not a sign of Election because anyone can believe whether they are among the Elect or a Reprobate.

 

[oworm]

Well put Woody! And yes i agree my opening statement was slightly askew. Oh well i suppose i should go give myself some purgatorial lashings for 5 minutes.

 

[rnmomof7]

ALL I want to know is HOW you people who think Calvins theory of election is a sound Biblical doctrine, KNOW for certain that YOU alone, are the one, and ONLY exclusive, select FEW that GOD exclusively selected to be the exclusive select elect, BEFORE you ever became Christians.

You would have to know BEFORE you were ever saved, that you alone are the one and only exclusive, select elect.

Did Abraham know? Did the apostles always know before they were drawn? Mary ? Paul?

Like the reprobate masses the elect remnant are totally depraved and not seeking after the God of the bible until opens eyes and gives new hearts..

And where does FAITH come in, if you are truly the one and only exclusive select elect, FAITH has absolutely nothing to do with yoiur salvation.

Men are saved by faith, but not the faith that trusts the pizza will arrive on time. Saving faith is a gift of God not a self generated wish list .

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Read it. The faith is NOT a gift of yourself it is a gift of God .

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;




Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

IF you are the exclusive select electl you don't have to have any FAITH to be saved, it's already a done deal, you don't have to do anything at all God already chose you, RIGHT?

Angry rants prove nothing

By grace through faith is the ordained means of salvation .

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

All you have to do is sit there, and GOD picks you out, and BANG! You're saved!

WHERE in the BIBLE is your concrete, undeniable BIBLICAL evidence of this?

THAT question has NEVER been answered.

I think biblical evidence has been given to you... you just can not see it or choose not to see it.

 

[PentecostalEvangelist]

Did Abraham know? Did the apostles always know before they were drawn? Mary ? Paul?

Like the reprobate masses the elect remnant are totally depraved and not seeking after the God of the bible until opens eyes and gives new hearts..




Men are saved by faith, but not the faith that trusts the pizza will arrive on time. Saving faith is a gift of God not a self generated wish list .

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Read it. The faith is NOT a gift of yourself it is a gift of God .

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;




Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Angry rants prove nothing

By grace through faith is the ordained means of salvation .

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.





I think biblical evidence has been given to you... you just can not see it or choose not to see it.

Present sound BIBLICAL evidence of exactly WHEN God became a LIAR......

 

[PentecostalEvangelist]

Actually, I would state it a bit differently: Only God knows those whom he will draw to himself for salvation.







I think that PE is laboring under an amalgamation of his beliefs and ours. You see, it does seem that, in his mind, if God has elected only some to be saved, that there would be others who would freely come to God for salvation only to be turned away because they were not Elected. It needs to be stated that, with our election comes even the desire for salvation. Those who are not among the Elect will never come to the Lord in any meaningful way for salvation. As the blessed Saint Augustine notes:

"We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.






​

It may very well be that PE thinks that, because anyone can come to God on his own, if our doctrine of Election is the doctrine of the Bible then you would have to know before you are saved and a believer if you are one of the special lucky ones. Otherwise, you will get turned away by God. Of course, as Augustine notes, we are not chosen because we believe but that we might believe. And so our election carries with it the promise that the Lord will surely see that we will be brought into the fold.




This might also explain PE's confusion about how, specifically we can know that we are among the Elect. You see, I think that, in his confusion, true belief is not a sign of Election because anyone can believe whether they are among the Elect or a Reprobate.

NO, I am not confused, it is NOT about who will accept GODS offer of salvation, and who will reject that offer according to their own FREE WILL, it is about IF the offer is to be made to ANYONE at all!

Your doctrine specifically teaches that those who are not among the exclusively selected elect should NEVER be given any opportunity whatseoever to receive the gift of salvation, they are to be ignored, and totally rejected by GOD, and by man, they are to be hated, and left to the torments of satan, forever, THAT is what I hate about your doctirne.....

Again I ask very HuMBLY, explain HOW YOU knew YOU were exclusively selected BY God to become Gods exclusively selected elect.

Absolutely NO Biblical evidence has ever yet been given to prove this to be absolutely Biblically sound....

 

[CCWoody]

Men are saved by faith, but not the faith that trusts the pizza will arrive on time. Saving faith is a gift of God not a self generated wish list .

Actually, I do agree with PE on one point regarding the relationship between faith and salvation: "If you are truly the one and only exclusive select elect, FAITH has absolutely nothing to do with yoiur salvation." You see, it is not a matter of faith to be saved in any sense other than the faith that those of us who are already saved have that the Lord will come and receive us to himself. That is a faith in a future salvation.

It is a matter of faith that the Lord has already saved us, in the shed grace of God. We believe that we are saved. We do not believe to get saved. This is what it means when we read "grace through faith." If we were to believe to get saved, then we would be turning belief into works based righteousness before God and rendering our salvation not by grace, but by works. Then, the Ephesians passage would read "grace plus faith," which is how the synergists claim it should be read.

Abraham taught me earlier last week when I was passing dow the Roman road in my morning devotions, that if belief caused my salvation, then my salvation would be by my own righteousness. Do you know what verse I noticed? I've read it a hundred times and only just now noticed it. hehehe!

 

[oworm]

NO, I am not confused, it is NOT about who will accept GODS offer of salvation, and who will reject that offer according to their own FREE WILL, it is about IF the offer is to be made to ANYONE at all!

The gospel is to be preached to all. the great commision commands it!

Your doctrine specifically teaches that those who are not among the exclusively selected elect should NEVER be given any opportunity whatseoever to receive the gift of salvation,

The gospel is to be preached to all without exception.to some it is a fragrance of life and to others it is a fragrance of death.


t

hey are to be ignored,

Show us where our doctrine teaches that we are to ignore non christians?
[QUOTE}and totally rejected by GOD,[/QUOTE]
Those who do not know Christ and do not come to him are rejected

and by man, they are to be hated,

Show us where our doctrine teaches that we are to hate non christians?!

and left to the torments of satan, forever, THAT is what I hate about your doctirne.....

The bible clearly teaches that there is a place of eternal separation from God.that is inescapable and inevitable for those who will not come to Christ

Again I ask very HuMBLY, explain HOW YOU knew YOU were exclusively selected BY God to become Gods exclusively selected elect.

By reading the WHOLE cousel of scripture.

Absolutely NO Biblical evidence has ever yet been given to prove this to be absolutely Biblically sound....

You have been given plenty of sources from scripture that clearly show Gods electing and predestinating purpose in salvation.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

this thread reminds me of the sermon illustration:

when you throw a stone into a pack of dogs
you can tell the one you hit because he's the one that howls.

...

 

[PentecostalEvangelist]

I quit, I know now that None of you are ever going to present sufficient Biblical evidence to answer my questions.

Your doctrine is NOT completely Biblically sound, and I refuse to accept it, promote it, or defend it.

I am NOT condemnning any of you, or saying that any of you are NOT saved, but I know that you, according to the nature of YOUR doctrine, are saying that all others who are NOT esxclusively selected to be GODS exclusive select elect, BEFORE the foundation the world ARE fully rejected by GOD and in that case, to be rejected by you.

I cannot, and I will never beleive that GOD is a liar, or that ANY part of his word is a lie, your doctrine of election teaches that GOD is a liar.

I am through discussing this with you, I know I am saved, I know that I am one of Gods chosen ones, I know this because I chose to accept his gift of salvation, I Knwo this becasue someone came to me and told me of the love of God for me, I know this becasue someone was not selfish with Gods love, I KNow this BECAUSE I KNOW God loves me just as much as he loves the entire world, and I know GOD wants every person, throughout the entire world to be saved, and because I Know this, and because of what I did to submit my life, and surrender to him completely, and accept his offer of salvation BY Faith, I know will spend eternity in heaven.

I Became the elect when I accepted the gift by faith according to my own free will, no mater what any of you say, GODS word is true, anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere can.

I apologize foe everything and anything I may have said to offend any of you, I am very passionate about my convictions concerning the absolute infallibility of ALL of Gods word, when I becamse a Christian, I came in to be fully submitted, and in everyway faithful to ALL of GODS word.

I determined in my heart from the beginning that I would believe God, and everything he has said in his word, I cannot, and I will not exclude ANY poart of his word, or reject any part of his word, I dcxetermined in my heart that IF I cannot believe GOD is absolutely true about one part of his word, then he is not true about ANY of his word.

You can make fun of me, insult me, do anything you want, I do not care, I choose to believe ALL of Gods word, because if ALL of GODS word were not applicable, then we would NOT have ALL of Gods word.

May God richly bless you all.....

Michael

 

[CCWoody]

NO, I am not confused, it is NOT about who will accept GODS offer of salvation, and who will reject that offer according to their own FREE WILL, it is about IF the offer is to be made to ANYONE at all!

Your doctrine specifically teaches that those who are not among the exclusively selected elect should NEVER be given any opportunity whatseoever to receive the gift of salvation, they are to be ignored, and totally rejected by GOD, and by man, they are to be hated, and left to the torments of satan, forever, THAT is what I hate about your doctirne.....

Actually, no, this is not what my doctrine teaches at all. It can't even be honestly inferred from what my doctrine teaches. So, you are perfectly free to hate this thing you describe. I can't say I'm too fond of it either. That is not to say that there is not a sense in which some very selected parts of your assertion are true.

Again I ask very HuMBLY, explain HOW YOU knew YOU were exclusively selected BY God to become Gods exclusively selected elect.

Asked and answered. You have to go back to my very first post on the subject.



In short, the Lord opened my eyes blinded by hostility and rebellion against him to see. He enlightening my heart in the same way that He spoke the words of creation "Let there be light" to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." IOW, the communication of my salvation was done by an act of creation, specifically, the act of re-creating me, the new birth. My response was natural. As Adam opened his eyes to behold the glory of the Creator who had just given him life I opened my eyes to behold the glory of the Redeemer who had given me new life. Anyway, here is my post again for you to consider:

In fact, it would seem strange if God revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ and inspired the record of that revelation in the Bible, but did not provide a way for ordinary people to know it. Stated most simply, the common path to sure knowledge of the REAL Jesus is this: Jesus, as he is revealed in the Bible, has a glory--an excellence, a spiritual beauty--that can be see as self-evidently true. It is like seeing the sun and knowing that it is light and not dark, or like tasting honey and knowing that it is sweet and not sour. There is no long chain of reasoning from premises to conclusions. There is a direct apprehension that this person is true and his glory is the glory of God.


The apostle Paul described this path to the knowledge of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6:

• The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God…. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Notice that Paul speaks of God's enlightening our hearts (as in the work of creation) to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." He is talking about people who have never seen the historical Jesus. How can they know Him and be sure of Him? What they "see" is the verbal portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel, that is, in the apostolic preaching of Christ. This portrayal, Paul says, accompanied by God's shining "in our hearts," appears to us as what it really is--"the glory of God in… Christ," or as "the glory of Christ… the image of God."

You can see that two things make this path possible. One is the reality of the glory of Jesus Christ shining through his portrayal in the Bible. The other is the work of God to open the eyes of our blinded hearts to see this glory. This is very different from God "telling us" that the Bible is true. It is rather, God's enabling us to see what is really there. This is an important difference. If God whispered in our ear, as it were, that the Jesus of the Bible is true, then the whispering would have the final authority and everything would hang on that. But that is not the path I see in the Bible nor the path I follow. Rather Jesus himself, and His divinely inspired portrayal in the Bible, have the final authority.

The practical effect of this path is that I do not ask you to pray for a special whisper from God to decide if Jesus is real. Rather I ask you to look at the Jesus of the Bible. Look at Him. Don't close your eyes and hope for a word of confirmation. Keep your eyes open and fill them with the full portrait of Jesus provided in the Bible. If you come to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and God, it will be because you see in Him a divine glory and excellence that simply is what it is--TRUE.

Sometimes this path is called the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." The old catechisms say it this way: "The Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able to fully persuade it that they are the very Word of God." Be sure to notice that the Spirit persuades "by and with the Scriptures." He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute private revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ.



The full image of the glory of God that is Christ is breathtaking in its elegance and majesty. All those who truly see it are radically transformed. They see their own sin and they see the perfection of Christ. And they are compelled to have Him for their own. He is glorified in us and we are freed to fully satisfy ourselves in all that He is for us.

We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18)​

Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ staves and sanctifies.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

be careful however,
for tomorrow you may wake up and unchoose.
and jump out of the hand of a God who is powerful enough only to potentially save,
who needs the creature to assent in order to rescue us from the pit.
an impotent God who waits through time to see who will real choose Him


as for me, i prefer a God who can really save
who isn't subject to time nor to my vagaries and whims
held fast not just to the end of time, but from it's beginning as well

adios
...

 

[oworm]

PE you asked in a PM for these verses to be addressed

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

The "world" in this text in its original is Kosmos from which we get our word cosmos. The love God has for the world is a love that encompasses his whole creation. Not just creatures. We tend to think of it as meaning just us because we are so selfish we think the world revolves around us. That us why the creation groans as it waits for the sons of God to be revealed. In its context the verse is also a challenge to the Jews who also thought that the world was just in their geographic location. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that Gods love is extensive and wide ranging


Romans 10:13,, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Those who do not call on the name of the Lord will not be saved.therefore those who do not call on Him are not elect!



2nd Peter 3:9.The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


Peters letter is written to believers,some of whom have been misled by false teaching. Hes telling them that God is being patient with them that they return. The sense is the same as that said by Jesus in John 6:39


1st Timothy 2:3 and 4.... This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

These verses mean that God wants all types or all kinds of people from everywhere to be saved. Not all people come to God to be saved so If it meant that God wants every single person in the world to be saved and every single person in the world is not saved then it shows that God must have failed in his desire to save all men. but God never fails in what he sets out to do

 

[PentecostalEvangelist]

I will discuss the issue no further.

 

[oworm]

I will discuss the issue no further.

Ok bye......................................Again

 

[rnmomof7]

Present sound BIBLICAL evidence of exactly WHEN God became a LIAR......

I present the same challenge to you

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Is Salvation a work of the flesh and not an act of Gods mercy?

Is salvation mans decision + the cross =salvation?

Does man save himself by his own wise choice?
THAT is the decision placed in front of you

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Is salvation a work of the will of men or the grace and mercy of God?

 

[PentecostalEvangelist]

I present the same challenge to you

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Is Salvation a work of the flesh and not an act of Gods mercy?

Is salvation mans decision + the cross =salvation?

Does man save himself by his own wise choice?
THAT is the decision placed in front of you

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Is salvation a work of the will of men or the grace and mercy of God?

..I will discuss the issue no further..


..I leave you to your theory..


Praying Fervently For You ALL...



...As I also Ask, That You ALL Also Pray Fervently For Me...

NOT That I would accept your theory, but that GOD would lead me into ALL truth according to a definite Spiritual understanding of ALL of His everlasting Unchanging word.


IF GOD reveals to my heart that YOUR Theory is Biblically correct, through the revelation By His Spirit of adequate Biblical evidence, absolutely refuting all other Biblical passages in his word that are absolutely contrary to your theory that thre doctrine of election as it is presently taught IS Biblically sound, NOT in anyway refusing to make offer of the gift of salvation readily availableto anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, THEN I will gladly teach it as a sound Biblical truth and promote, and defend it faithfully.


Otherwise, I will fervently speak out against it anywhere and everywhere, to anyopne and everyone,and I will also pray even more fervently or it to fail completely.


You may feel this to be offensive, BUT I cannot pray for the success of any doctrine that I know in my heart is NOT a completely sound Biblical doctrine.


May YOU all be very richly and abundantly blessed in Christ Jesus......

 

[Beoga]

So, Pentecostal Evangelist, you do not feel the need to substantiate your claim that Election is anti-Biblical while your belief is Biblical? You have come in here saying that we are in error, yet you feel that you do not have to support your claims with Scripture? You claim that we will not listen/ignore any verse but you have not even tried? We, on the other hand have taken time and shown you the respect by explaining our beliefs and providing Scripture for you? Why can't you show the same respect toward us and take the time to provide Scripture (besides 2 Timothy 3:15-17) that supports your beliefs and shows the error of election?

 

[oworm]

..I will discuss the issue no further..
[/QUOTE]

Ok bye.................................. Yet again!

BTW how many times are you leaving?

 

[5solas]

BTW how many times are you leaving?

I think he works like one of those....

 

[PentecostalEvangelist]

..I will discuss the issue no further..
[/QUOTE]

Ok bye.................................. Yet again!

BTW how many times are you leaving?

Well If CERTAIN people in here would just shut up and leave me alone.....

If You'd like I'll leave the forums for good, would THAT satisfy you?

I do have MUCH better things to do, for GOD than WASTE my time here.

Speaking about wasting time, I got my fanny royaly chewed out for asking this question on another forum, BUT I meant NO offense, and I mean none here, BUT on the average, how much time do you spend each day here in the forums, having Internet fellowship with other Christians, and how much time do you spend each day in personal fellowship with God each day?

BTW NONE of you are EVER going to change my beliefs, because Gods word is NEVER going to change.

I still want to point out very sincerely that I have never once meant that I think any of you are unsaved, and I hope you do not think I am unsaved, I mess up a lot, and I do it in very bad ways sometimes, YES I do get very depressed, and very discouraged, just pray for me please.

Bookworm, I'll leave if it will make you and the others in the forums feel better......