How do you know for sure you are saved?

[PentecostalEvangelist]

In order to satisfy the hearts and minds of all those who were offended, The question has been removed.

 

[Jon_]

Questions for those who believe in John Calvins exclusive (ONE AND ONLY) select election theory.

Exactly how did God tell you you were saved?

Did God visit you, and speak to you with an audible voice?

Did you decide on your own that you were a Christian?

Through regeneration, God, by way of his Holy Spirit, gave me a new and clean heart. Even more, he gave me faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, even that faith which saves. As no man comes to salvific faith apart from the grace of God, I know that I am saved because I have faith. Moreover, I know that this faith comes from God (Eph. 2:8).

Were you BORN a Chrisatian?

Because election is a part of God's eternal decree, it is accurate to say that the elect are born Christians, even if they have not yet been regenerated. Because God has eternally declared the election of his children, it is accurate to say that we are Christians before we are even born. Our chronological, temporal state as mortals is inconsequential to the predestined state of our souls.

Are there certain exclusive denominational doctrinal guidelines, or steps of church advancement set in place by your church by which you are moved into the palce of salvation?

No.

From what I have read, you believe that you have do nothing to be saved,

This is inaccurate. You must believe on Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

you just suddenly become a Christian,

Again, no one "becomes a Christian." They are Christians from the beginning.

BUT where is the absolute BIBLICAL evidence which gives you the absolute assurance that you are truly saved?

(Ps. 37:23, 24, 28 KJV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. 28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
​

Hey I don't mean any of these questions in an offensive manner,

No offense taken (to these questions).

just wondered how you people come to the true knowledge of an absolute assurance of your salvation, that is very important to you after all......

Through God's Word--by the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

One thing I'm not understanding, Jon, is how you say you have been a Christian all of your life. I view Christianity as something that begins at conversion. Yes, God elected His church from the foundations of the world, and there was never any doubt that you would repent and believe, but isn't being a Christian a matter of being conformed to the image of Christ? I prefer to look to regeneration as a more accurate point in time to declare Christianity. Of course, the choice of repentance and faith is the deciding point, but regeneration makes this a non-choice as man will continually move in the direction by which the greatest joy is to be found. (Pascal)

Would you care to elaborate on your view a bit, either here or in another thread? I'm not sure I understand it fully.

 

[Jon_]

One thing I'm not understanding, Jon, is how you say you have been a Christian all of your life. I view Christianity as something that begins at conversion. Yes, God elected His church from the foundations of the world, and there was never any doubt that you would repent and believe, but isn't being a Christian a matter of being conformed to the image of Christ? I prefer to look to regeneration as a more accurate point in time to declare Christianity. Of course, the choice of repentance and faith is the deciding point, but regeneration makes this a non-choice as man will continually move in the direction by which the greatest joy is to be found. (Pascal)

Would you care to elaborate on your view a bit, either here or in another thread? I'm not sure I understand it fully.

Hey CS. Well, there isn't a whole lot to discuss. Since God's elect are eternally elect, regeneration is simply a consequence of that election, and not causal to one's state as redeemed in the eyes of God. That is, even before the foundation of the world, God loved us and planned to send Jesus Christ to die for us. In this sense, before we were even created, God had already put his plan for our salvation into motion. Because God is timeless, he sees everything before and everything after our regeneration. Because he forgives our trespasses for the sake of his Son's sacrificed, we are no longer considered sinners. Those sins have been covered by the blood of Christ. So even before we are temporally born and regenerated, we are already elected, justified, and redeemed. It is by this dynamic that the Old Testament saints were saved by belief in the typology of Christ. Even though Christ had not yet died for their sins physically, they were justified in faith. Even more, they were justified before the world was even created because God had predetermined them to salvation.

Our temporal standing as Christians is shown through fruit, of course. For instance, Paul was most certainly unregenerated before his encounter with our Lord on the road to Damascus. Nevertheless, Paul was still one of God's elect before being regenerated. But if you had asked other Christians about Paul at this time, they would not have accepted the claim that he was a Christian because he bore no fruit. Indeed, he was a hater and persecuter of Christians. However, after his conversion, his brothers knew that he was elect, and that God had changed his heart.

It is really a matter of focus. I focus on the election aspect of Christianity, in that it is God's eternal choice. The temporal aspect of Christianity is, of course, living a Christian life. That is how we know Christians in this life: by fruit. But this has no effect on the elected status of these persons. That has already been foreordained by the Lord. I look to God's decree of predestination as the absolute reference of those who are (or will become) Christians.

It's simply a difference in emphasis.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Beoga]

Jon:

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God Loves only certain ones, and hates everyone else?

If you do please present sufficient Biblical evidence to suppoort this theory, and also give adequate Biblical evidence to prove that everything Jesus did at the cross was of none effect.

What do you mean by "of none effect?"

 

[Jon_]

Jon:

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God Loves only certain ones, and hates everyone else?

I believe that God loves on the elect salvifically (savingly).

If you do please present sufficient Biblical evidence to suppoort this theory, and also give adequate Biblical evidence to prove that everything Jesus did at the cross was of none effect.

Define "sufficient Biblical evidence to support this theory."

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[SoldierofChrist]

Jon:

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God Loves only certain ones, and hates everyone else?

If you do please present sufficient Biblical evidence to suppoort this theory, and also give adequate Biblical evidence to prove that everything Jesus did at the cross was of none effect.

Well I can't answer for Jon, but while I agree with him in that God decreed before the foundation of the world who would be saved, I don't think Christians were 'always' saved. There is a point in time where God regenerates a sinner so you cannot say you were *always* a Christian if I am, in fact, understanding Jon correctly.

In any case, I can write my own thoughts out until the cows literally come home, but that certainly wouldn't do God's Word justice.

Romans 9:

"6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."


14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Also I'm not sure where you get the notion that this somehow makes the cross of Jesus Christ of none affect. If anything, the Arminian version of the Gospel does this. You say that Christ died for the elect who are somehow simply those who God foreknew would accept Christ, but what does that say for the rest of mankind who don't? If Christ died for everyone, you are saying that His death wasn't enough to save everyone or else they would have been saved. Christ died for those sinners that God chose to save which is why they are saved. How could Christ have died for someone who dies without accepting Him?

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Thanks Jon, for your perspective. I still see some difference, or rather a certain progression from elect to Christian, but see where you are coming from as well. It's almost like the Perseverence of the Saints to be, similar to how God made a distinction between Jacob and Esau before their births.

 

[Jon_]

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.

(Ps. 11:5 KJV) The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

(Rom. 9:13 KJV) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
​

The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.

In this you show a fundamental lack of understanding concerning the doctrine of election.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Jon:



Well I can't answer for Jon, but while I agree with him in that God decreed before the foundation of the world who would be saved, I don't think Christians were 'always' saved. There is a point in time where God regenerates a sinner so you cannot say you were *always* a Christian if I am, in fact, understanding Jon correctly. . . .

You understand me correctly, brother. I do think it is a difference in emphasis. Because I view God's decrees as being eternally fulfilled even if not temporally revealed, I consider all God's elect to be "Christians" whether or not they are regenerated yet because God's sovereign ordination of their election ensures that they will. Is it accurate to say in a temporal sense that him who does not display the fruits of the Spirit is regenerated and a Christian? No. But it is no more appropriate to say they are not a Christian, either. Who are we to judge the souls of me? God alone knows his elect and knows them eternally.

For me, it's just a view of semantics. (That is, the distinguishing of the elect from Christians.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

What is your definition of belief? Is it an agreement to a fact? Even the demons believe in Christ, you realize. There is more to the gospel than John 3:16 also. I suggest a reading of all of John 3. If a teacher of the Law found rebirth to be so difficult to understand, we shouldn't be too quick to simplify the gospel into something we can easilly accept or into any one verse at the exclusion of others.

 

[Jon_]

John 3:16......

Are you saying that the Bible contradicts itself?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I'm not saying that there is any contradiction. I just feel that many people have a westernized version of what the Bible means when certain words are used. Take believe for example. A person may believe that they are saved by grace (unmerited favor) and yet still try to "live a good life" to please God. Can they truly believe in grace and still try to earn favor? Granted, there is a proper place for good works, but people who think they are "basically good people" expose the general aversion to grace, which is one of the consequences of the fall.

Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

 

[Beoga]

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.

The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.

I am very hesitant to trust your understanding of what the doctrine of election teaches, especially sense all you have done is spewed your hatred of Calvinism and have given no meaningful defense of your position.

In our pm "converstaion" I gave you these two verses that you ignored:

Psa 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

 

[Beoga]

NO but apparently you must be.

Those who believe in the theory of election firmly contend that God specifically has pre-chosen some for salvation, and that all others have absolutely NO hope whatsoever of ever having any opportunity of receiving the gift of salvation.

THAT is why I HATE the doictrine of electiuon as it is taught by MEN, NOT BY God.

I firmly agree that there will be MANY who will NOT receive the gift of Salvation, BUT it will NOT be because God elected those people to be doomed for all eternity, it will be because THEY chose, according to their own free will to reject the offer of Salvation, OR it will be because they were NEVER witnessed to by those who think the doctrine of election (Or I should say exclusion) as it is taught by calvinists is a sound doctrine.

What is the doctrine of election as "taught by God?" "Obviously" we calvinist have it all wrong when it comes to this doctrine. Yet, the Scriptures do speak about predestination, election, the elect. So biblically, as "taught by God," what do these things mean?

 

[Jon_]

NO but apparently you must be.

How do you explain God's hatred of the wicked, then?

Those who believe in the theory of election firmly contend that God specifically has pre-chosen some for salvation, and that all others have absolutely NO hope whatsoever of ever having any opportunity of receiving the gift of salvation.

THAT is why I HATE the doictrine of electiuon as it is taught by MEN, NOT BY God.

I firmly agree that there will be MANY who will NOT receive the gift of Salvation, BUT it will NOT be because God elected those people to be doomed for all eternity, it will be because THEY chose, according to their own free will to reject the offer of Salvation, OR it will be because they were NEVER witnessed to by those who think the doctrine of election (Or I should say exclusion) as it is taught by calvinists is a sound doctrine.

I have to be honest, I find you absolutely hilarious. Are you for real?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

If you look at the doctrine of man created in the image and likeness of God, being declared "very good" and indeed being "very good" you can understand much of God's demands in our post-fall situation.

As it was, we did rely on God for absolutely everything, and we did fulfill all requirements that were given to us joyfully. The fall changed all of this. Does that mean that God should change His expectations of His creation because we just don't feel like honoring His demands perfectly? Of course not. We are required to keep the whole law perfectly with no deviation. Since all have failed to do this, we must have a redeemer. However, since we have failed to meet God's rightful demands, we are naturally inclined against God's wishes. We do evil. What's more, we want to do evil.

Since we are carriers of this original sin, and since it does affect our desires (Romans 7:21), we must rely on God to choose us (Ephesians 1:3-10) as there is no one who seeks God (Romans 3:11). Thus, it is His decision to elect some and not all and nobody can fault His decisions (Daniel 4:35), as we are all by right, creatures of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

We mean-spirited Calvinists recognize the universal plight of sin for what it is and how it's effects are shown in Scripture. We do not preach this doctrine because it is the easiest to present to you. We preach it fron our desire to be true to the Bible. There is a universal requirement for all men to come to Christ for their salvation, but there is also a realization that most people will never be disposed to go to Christ, instead preferring their own ideas.
Calvinism is a completely humbling doctrine, but we desire you to understand and accept it because we want you to realize the truth. Until you accept that grace, by definition, is reserved only for those who believe they need it, you will think we are mean-spirited.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Questions for those who believe in John Calvins exclusive (ONE AND ONLY) select election theory.

Exactly how did God tell you you were saved?

Did God visit you, and speak to you with an audible voice?

Did you decide on your own that you were a Christian?

Were you BORN a Chrisatian?

Are there certain exclusive denominational doctrinal guidelines, or steps of church advancement set in place by your church by which you are moved into the palce of salvation?

From what I have read, you believe that you have do nothing to be saved, you just suddenly become a Christian, BUT where is the absolute BIBLICAL evidence which gives you the absolute assurance that you are truly saved?

Hey I don't mean any of these questions in an offensive manner, just wondered how you people come to the true knowledge of an absolute assurance of your salvation, that is very important to you after all......

The fruits of the Spirit, the witness of the Holy Spirit within, and by the measure of John's first letter.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.

The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.

How can you think that? Don't you realize He chose His people because He had set His love upon them?

Even concerning the non-elect, it is a matter of justice; and His love for His people makes it certain that the wicked shall not go unpunished.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Then... That must mean that Jesus failed his mission for the most part! He came to save all and all weren't saved! We worship a wooing god! No, we worship an idol made by human hands, who can be shaped in our own image. A construct that has eyes but cannot see and feet but cannot move.

How sad. This puts all the pressure on the preacher, who must likewise woo the congregation with whatever ideas he can to convince others to worship this same impotent god, for this god cannot even assist the pastor. And since the real power is in the hearer of the word, they are essentially saving themselves with no need for grace.

I do believe I'll be reading Ephesians 2:1-10 again, just to break this sudden depression!