How do we know Santa Claus doesn't exist?

[BigV]

On the other hand, I think there are a smattering of compelling things about the Biblical narrative as a whole. No time now to get into the details but I will make this very general claim to start: To the extent that one can say that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, He did so in such an unpredictable and strange way that it would take quite an imagination to invent the Jesus story.

Humans have quite an imagination. Just look at how many religions have sprang up throughout our history. Even today, there are Mormons, Muslims, Hindus. Were their Holy Books divinely inspired?

On the other hand, Christians have misused the Old Testament to allow for Jesus to 'fulfill' prophecy.

For instance, Matthew says that Jesus fleeing to Egypt is a fulfillment of a prophecy, when the original was not even a prophecy.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Another common misuse of the Old Testament is the use of Greek text. The Greek translation of the Old Testament was not always accurate. For example, Isaiah 7:14, about a virgin conceiving comes from a Greek text. Hebrew (and original) Isaiah 7:14 does not say 'virgin'.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You might keep in mind that some of us didn't actually become Christian due to some fear of Hell that lodged in our heads. No, some of us, instead, became Christians because we experienced a more aesthetic and metaphysical reason for becoming Christian: The Beauty of Jesus.

Good for you! I'm pleased to hear that you are happy, and pleased to hear you admit that's what you based your choice on.
Kenny'sID said: "It make so much more sense than the common alternative. Besides, I'm not going to leave it at that because I personally am enough convinced, that I don't want to take the chance of going to hell by taking the "wait to be sure" stance."
"Experiencing the beauty of Jesus" is not very far away from "it just makes sense to me" in that neither of them are rational reactions. Basically, you saw something and you liked it, so you made the decision to believe in it. What would you say to someone who said they believed in Santa Claus because the story sounded so wonderful?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Good for you! I'm pleased to hear that you are happy, and pleased to hear you admit that's what you based your choice on.
Kenny'sID said: "It make so much more sense than the common alternative. Besides, I'm not going to leave it at that because I personally am enough convinced, that I don't want to take the chance of going to hell by taking the "wait to be sure" stance."
"Experiencing the beauty of Jesus" is not very far away from "it just makes sense to me" in that neither of them are rational reactions. Basically, you saw something and you liked it, so you made the decision to believe in it. What would you say to someone who said they believed in Santa Claus because the story sounded so wonderful?

Jumping Jehoshaphat, Batman! I could be wrong, but I could have sworn that I made no indication of my own faith having ever merely dependent upon, or the simple result of, mere feelings accompanying all that I began to take in about Jesus Christ at age 17.

So, Batman, maybe just calm down ... and keep telling yourself, "The Joker is still in Arkam, the Joker is still in Arkam, the Joker is still in Arkam..........breath.........repeat.................................."

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I would think they were very, very wise people, especially if their valuation of "Santa" was aesthetically bound together in a beautiful Christmas package:

Long live "Santa"! In Christ Jesus!

Wise, eh?
And would you think they were correct?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Jumping Jehoshaphat, Batman! I could be wrong, but I could have sworn that I made no indication of my own faith having ever merely dependent upon, or the simple result of, mere feelings accompanying all that I began to take in about Jesus Christ at age 17.

So, Batman, maybe just calm down ... and keep telling yourself, "The Joker is still in Arkam, the Joker is still in Arkam, the Joker is still in Arkam..........breath.........repeat.................................."

Sorry if you don't like it. You're the one who said it. I just take you at your word
Also, just FYI, Arkham is spelled with an h.

 

[expos4ever]

I think the Santa Claus analogy goes too far. I would agree that there may no be no more direct evidence for God than for Santa Claus. But any adult has a devastatingly counterargument for Santa - we all know who really brings the gifts.

And it ain’t Santa.

The God question is different - we are faced a mysterious universe of compelling beauty. This at least allows for the possibility of God. And there is the fine tuning argument which I believe even Chris Hitchens conceded was somewhat compelling.

In short: while there is devastating counter-evidence against Santa, I suggest the existence of God is basically an open question- no good evidence either way.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wise, eh?
And would you think they were correct?

Yes, I would think that person as "wise," mainly because any adult in this big world who as a child thought of Kris Kringle, or Santa Clause, or Father Frost can disambiguate the real, historical essence of "Santa" from the mythologized character that we all loved to adore and receive toys from on December 25th (in America, anyway).

So, yes, I'd think a knowledgeable adult who takes into consideration the ways in which historiography and various epistemological and ontological issues SHOULD play into our overall evaluations about Santa ... could be correct.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sorry if you don't like it. You're the one who said it. I just take you at your word
Also, just FYI, Arkham is spelled with an h.

Ah, you are correct. Thanks for spotting that snafu on my part ...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

So, yes, I'd think a knowledgeable adult who takes into consideration the ways in which historiography and various epistemological and ontological issues SHOULD play into our overall evaluations about Santa ... could be correct.

By this, do you mean they could be correct about Santa Claus actually existing? The bearded, red-clothed old gentleman who delivers toys magically?
You said that you believe in Jesus Christ because of the beauty of his existence. And you also said that if someone used the same argument as you - that they felt that the story of Santa was so beautiful that it must be true - then you would believe that they were right.

In short, if someone told you: "Santa is such a beautiful idea that he must exist," you would say, "Yes, you are right, he does."

I must believe this is what you mean, based on what you have said.

Ah, you are correct. Thanks for spotting that snafu on my part ...

No problem : )

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I think the Santa Claus analogy goes too far. I would agree that there may no be no more direct evidence for God than for Santa Claus. But any adult has a devastatingly counterargument for Santa - we all know who really brings the gifts.
And it ain’t Santa.
...
In short: while there is devastating counter-evidence against Santa, I suggest the existence of God is basically an open question- no good evidence either way.

I think you underestimate the extent to which some Christians will push themselves.
There are Christians who will tell you that the entire sum of scientific thought is incorrect - not just incorrect, but flatly wrong in every detail. There are Christians who say that the Earth is only six thousand years old. There are Christians who think that they are going to float up in the air, bodily, to heaven - any day now.
Put against that, a person believing that Christmas presents are delivered by a jolly polar genie seems very simple.

So let's play a game, shall we?
I'll pretend to be a person who really does believe that Santa Claus exists, and that it is he who delivers presents every Christmas. You see if you can demonstrate to me that I'm wrong.
Now, as to your first point: you say that it's parents who bring the presents - not, as they tell their children, Santa. Well, of course, I know that's what parents say; but how can you prove to me that this is really true? Have you ever stayed awake, the whole of Christmas night, watching to see that the presents weren't delivered by Santa?

 

[mama2one]

deleting personal info

 

[2PhiloVoid]

By this, do you mean they could be correct about Santa Claus actually existing? The bearded, red-clothed old gentleman who delivers toys magically?

What do you think I meant? I have to ask because I just wondering what it is that you think I was "meaning" and how you derived your interpretation of what it is you think I've meant in my response above.

You said that you believe in Jesus Christ because of the beauty of his existence. And you also said that if someone used the same argument as you - that they felt that the story of Santa was so beautiful that it must be true - then you would believe that they were right.

Yes, and in saying that, I'm going to rightly assume that you'd do your best to understand my thinking on this, especially with all of the little hints I've dropped. I mean, I can't do your thinking or your interpreting for you.

In short, if someone told you: "Santa is such a beautiful idea that he must exist," you would say, "Yes, you are right, he does."

In the context in which I mean what I'm saying, "yes."

I must believe this is what you mean, based on what you have said.

And again, what pray tell is your procedure for determining what I or any other person may be saying and thus meaning?

No problem : )

Yes, anytime you see me misspell a comic book related term, I would appreciate it if you keep right on correcting those errors that I know I'm prone to make. Otherwise, I might say something "indelible" and then misapply it to some character like the Hulk.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Bingo. I think you nailed the nail on it's head. It's easy to convince anyone of anything if you have a big stick and are willing and ready to use it.

If I understand you correctly, I have no idea how you got that from anything I said. Could you please address what I did say?

 

[BigV]

I'll give you one better. Our child has never received a gift from Santa & yes she's a good kid.

There are several responses I could provide based on Christian apologetic for Jesus.

1) We live in a fallen world where most of the adult population has been rejecting Santa for ages. We should not expect Santa to magically grant us every wish, no matter how deserving we have been.

2) Santa's way way way smarter than all of us. He has a plans that we know nothing about and would be unable to understand even if he were to reveal them to us.

3) Santa expects us to believe in him even if there is NO direct evidence. And truth be told, while Santa has not been directly providing gifts, he provided for your family so that you and/or your relatives could provide gifts. That's how Santa works today. He provides gifts indirectly. And best part is, you can't prove otherwise. How could you? When you or your loved ones go to work, who gives them strength? Who gives them jobs? Well, of course it's Santa. How can there be any alternatives to this?

Sorry, to disappoint but Santa doesn't come to our house.
Our child knows there's no Santa.

Again, Christian apologetics hat on:

1) Your child has been indoctrinated by 'the world' that there is no Santa. But he is really very near everyone of us.

2) Just ask him and keep asking until he finally answers. Even if it takes years or even decades of silence. Just keep looking for that accidental response.

You know, imagine you are walking alone in the wood and you think you hear something? That's SANTA!!! He's been reaching out to you so that you could believe in him.

I realize the above is a little bit crazy, BUT if Santa is replaced with Jesus, it becomes the wisest thing ever, especially if one is Christian. Am I right?

 

[BigV]

If I understand you correctly, I have no idea how you got that from anything I said. Could you please address what I did say?

You essentially said you are not willing to risk Hell by waiting to get answers.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You essentially said you are not willing to risk Hell by waiting to get answers.

If that's all you got from my post, I'll assume I made my points.

As to your point, the "big stick" is no different than threat of punishing a child for their own good but on a much more serious scale.

I for one am very glad to have the warning.

 

[mama2one]

nm

 

[BigV]

If that's all you got from my post, I'll assume I made my points.

As to your point, the "big stick" is no different than threat of punishing a child for their own good but on a much more serious scale.

I for one am very glad to have the warning.

No, the warning was not heeded as I see you are not a Muslim. According to Islam, you better not be worshipping Jesus, a mere Prophet, as a God. Otherwise that's idolatry and Allah hates idolatry. So, you have been warned about a Muslim Hell.

But that's not all. What about the Greek Gods and their Hell? Those Gods too expect you to toe the line.

 

[Sanoy]

Still trying to figure out how Jesus compares to Santa Claus.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Still trying to figure out how Jesus compares to Santa Claus.

... me too!