How do we know Santa Claus doesn't exist?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's a serious question about the methodology used to determine the difference between a real person and a fiction.

Please note, although I do not believe in Santa, I may be (sarcastically) using arguments for his possible existence based on the apologetics used for a Christian God.

Things such as..

Christmas makes no sense without Santa.
Santa needs to be accepted by faith. He is not a genie who has to show up and prove his existence to you. You must genuinely want a relationship with him if you want to see him in your life, etc....

So, how do we know the truth about Santa?

Has Santa (as now generally defined in Western culture, not some actual person the fictional character may have been based on) ever been taken to anything other than a fictional character? Other than by young children I mean.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, the warning was not heeded as I see you are not a Muslim. According to Islam, you better not be worshipping Jesus, a mere Prophet, as a God. Otherwise that's idolatry and Allah hates idolatry. So, you have been warned about a Muslim Hell.

But that's not all. What about the Greek Gods and their Hell? Those Gods too expect you to toe the line.

You are aware of the God I speak of, and as far as the Muslims....irrelevant. We've all been warned.
 
Upvote 0

BigV

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,093
267
47
USA, IL
✟41,804.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You are aware of the God I speak of, and as far as the Muslims....irrelevant. We've all been warned.

Well, you've been now aware of a Muslim God too. We've all been warned there too.

Although, it's interesting how the hell of the religion you were not indoctrinated in is not that scary, eh?
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well, you've been now aware of a Muslim God too. We've all been warned there too.

Although, it's interesting how the hell of the religion you were not indoctrinated in is not that scary, eh?

None of that negates my point.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
  • Like
Reactions: BigV
Upvote 0

BigV

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,093
267
47
USA, IL
✟41,804.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Has Santa (as now generally defined in Western culture, not some actual person the fictional character may have been based on) ever been taken to anything other than a fictional character? Other than by young children I mean.

Probably not as serious as a religion. But to each their own. There was a time when the Egyptian Gods were taken very seriously too and Jesus was not even on a radar of seriousness. And look at how far Mormons came in the past few hundred years. Perhaps there is hope for Santa?
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Probably not as serious as a religion. But to each their own. There was a time when the Egyptian Gods were taken very seriously too and Jesus was not even on a radar of seriousness. And look at how far Mormons came in the past few hundred years. Perhaps there is hope for Santa?

Hope for Santa to do what?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Other scholars got to me before you did!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,215
9,976
The Void!
✟1,134,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Okay, guys. All you have to do is prove that Santa does not exist.
Try it, and the you might find the similarities to Jesus popping up.

Are you even aware of the overall context of the conversation that has thus far transpired? I'm thinking that you don't since you seem to strawman by insinuating what it is you 'think' I'm saying. Of course, I've noticed that you and a few others here tend to do that sort of thing on a semi-regular basis.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
What do you think I meant? I have to ask because I just wondering what it is that you think I was "meaning" and how you derived your interpretation of what it is you think I've meant in my response above.
I think you meant what you said. If you don't know what you said, then just go back and reread it.
Yes, and in saying that, I'm going to rightly assume that you'd do your best to understand my thinking on this, especially with all of the little hints I've dropped. I mean, I can't do your thinking or your interpreting for you.
Is it necessary for your to drop little hints, Philo? What is this, a riddling competition? Just say what you mean.
In the context in which I mean what I'm saying, "yes."
Good. So you agree that the argument you give for believing in Jesus also works perfectly well for proving a ridiculous proposition: that Santa Claus exists.
Logically speaking, an argument that can be used to prove a manifest absurdity that you yourself do not believe is not a good argument.
Ergo, your argument for Christianity is not a good one. As anyone could have told you the moment you said "I believe in Jesus Christ because it's such a beautiful idea".
And again, what pray tell is your procedure for determining what I or any other person may be saying and thus meaning?
I read what they say, assume that they are not speaking with intent to deceive me, and then decipher their meaning.
If you say that you believe in Jesus Christ, I take you at your word. And if you say that you believe in Jesus Christ for a ridiculous reason, I am happy to help you see your error.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Saint Nicholas
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to navigation Jump to search
This article is about the fourth-century Christian saint. For the gift-bearing figure in modern folklore and popular culture, see Santa Claus. For other uses, see Saint Nicholas (disambiguation).
Saint Nicholas

Full-length icon of Saint Nicholas by Jaroslav Čermák, showing him with a halo, dressed in clerical garb, and holding a book of the scriptures in his left hand while making the hand gesture for the sign of the cross with his right.
Defender of Orthodoxy, Wonderworker, Holy Hierarch, Bishop of Myra
Born
Traditionally 15 March 270[1]
Patara, Roman Empire
Died Traditionally 6 December 342 (aged 72)
Myra, Roman Empire
Venerated in All Christian denominations which venerate saints
Major shrine Basilica di San Nicola, Bari, Italy
Feast 5/6 December in Western Christianity; 19 December in Eastern Christianity (main feast day – Saint Nicholas Day)
22 May [O.S. 9 May] (translation of relics)[2]
Attributes Vested as a Bishop. In Eastern Christianity, wearing an omophorion and holding a Gospel Book. Sometimes shown with Jesus Christ over one shoulder, holding a Gospel Book, and with the Theotokos over the other shoulder, holding an omophorion
Patronage Children, coopers, sailors, fishermen, merchants, broadcasters, the falsely accused, repentant thieves, brewers, pharmacists, archers, pawnbrokers, Aberdeen, Galway, Russia, Greece, Hellenic Navy, Liverpool, Bari, Siggiewi, Moscow, Amsterdam, Lorraine and Duchy of Lorraine, students in various cities and countries around Europe
Saint Nicholas of Myra[a] (traditionally 15 March 270 – 6 December 342),[3][4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas#cite_note-8 also known as Nicholas of Bari, was an early Christian bishop of the ancient Greek maritime city of Myra in Asia Minor (Ancient Greek: Μύρα, modern-day Demre, Turkey) during the time of the Roman Empire.[7][8] Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nicholas the Wonderworker.[c] Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, repentant thieves, children, brewers, pawnbrokers, and students in various cities and countries around Europe. His reputation evolved among the faithful, as was common for early Christian saints, and his legendary habit of secret gift-giving gave rise to the traditional model of Santa Claus ("Saint Nick") through Sinterklaas.

Very little is known about the historical Saint Nicholas. The earliest accounts of his life were written centuries after his death and contain many legendary elaborations. He is said to have been born in the Greek seaport of Patara, Lycia in Asia Minor to wealthy Christian parents.[9] In one of the earliest attested and most famous incidents from his life, he is said to have rescued three girls from being forced into prostitution by dropping a sack of gold coins through the window of their house each night for three nights so their father could pay a dowry for each of them. Other early stories tell of him calming a storm at sea, saving three innocent soldiers from wrongful execution, and chopping down a tree possessed by a demon. In his youth, he is said to have made a pilgrimage to Egypt and the Palestine area. Shortly after his return, he became Bishop of Myra. He was later cast into prison during the persecution of Diocletian, but was released after the accession of Constantine. An early list makes him an attendee at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, but he is never mentioned in any writings by people who were actually at the council. Late, unsubstantiated legends claim that he was temporarily defrocked and imprisoned during the Council for slapping the heretic Arius. Another famous late legend tells how he resurrected three children, who had been murdered and pickled in brine by a butcher planning to sell them as pork during a famine.

Fewer than 200 years after Nicholas's death, the St. Nicholas Church was built in Myra under the orders of Theodosius II over the site of the church, where he had served as bishop and Nicholas's remains were moved to a sarcophagus in that church. In 1087, while the Greek Christian inhabitants of the region were subjugated by the newly arrived Muslim Seljuk Turks, and soon after their church was declared to be in schism by the Catholic church, a group of merchants from the Italian city of Bari removed the major bones of Nicholas's skeleton from his sarcophagus in the church without authorization and brought them to their hometown, where they are now enshrined in the Basilica di San Nicola. The remaining bone fragments from the sarcophagus were later removed by Venetian sailors and taken to Venice during the First Crusade. His relics in Bari are said to exude a miraculous watery substance known as "manna" or "myrrh", which some members of the faithful regard as possessing supernatural powers.

Saint Nicholas - Wikipedia
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Screen Shot 2019-10-21 at 9.17.31 PM.png
Yes, anytime you see me misspell a comic book related term, I would appreciate it if you keep right on correcting those errors that I know I'm prone to make. Otherwise, I might say something "indelible" and then misapply it to some character like the Hulk.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Saint Nicholas
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to navigation Jump to search
This article is about the fourth-century Christian saint. For the gift-bearing figure in modern folklore and popular culture, see Santa Claus. For other uses, see Saint Nicholas (disambiguation).
Saint Nicholas

Full-length icon of Saint Nicholas by Jaroslav Čermák, showing him with a halo, dressed in clerical garb, and holding a book of the scriptures in his left hand while making the hand gesture for the sign of the cross with his right.
Defender of Orthodoxy, Wonderworker, Holy Hierarch, Bishop of Myra
Born
Traditionally 15 March 270[1]
Patara, Roman Empire
Died Traditionally 6 December 342 (aged 72)
Myra, Roman Empire
Venerated in All Christian denominations which venerate saints
Major shrine Basilica di San Nicola, Bari, Italy
Feast 5/6 December in Western Christianity; 19 December in Eastern Christianity (main feast day – Saint Nicholas Day)
22 May [O.S. 9 May] (translation of relics)[2]
Attributes Vested as a Bishop. In Eastern Christianity, wearing an omophorion and holding a Gospel Book. Sometimes shown with Jesus Christ over one shoulder, holding a Gospel Book, and with the Theotokos over the other shoulder, holding an omophorion
Patronage Children, coopers, sailors, fishermen, merchants, broadcasters, the falsely accused, repentant thieves, brewers, pharmacists, archers, pawnbrokers, Aberdeen, Galway, Russia, Greece, Hellenic Navy, Liverpool, Bari, Siggiewi, Moscow, Amsterdam, Lorraine and Duchy of Lorraine, students in various cities and countries around Europe
Saint Nicholas of Myra[a] (traditionally 15 March 270 – 6 December 342),[3][4] also known as Nicholas of Bari, was an early Christian bishop of the ancient Greek maritime city of Myra in Asia Minor (Ancient Greek: Μύρα, modern-day Demre, Turkey) during the time of the Roman Empire.[7][8] Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nicholas the Wonderworker.[c] Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, repentant thieves, children, brewers, pawnbrokers, and students in various cities and countries around Europe. His reputation evolved among the faithful, as was common for early Christian saints, and his legendary habit of secret gift-giving gave rise to the traditional model of Santa Claus ("Saint Nick") through Sinterklaas.

Very little is known about the historical Saint Nicholas. The earliest accounts of his life were written centuries after his death and contain many legendary elaborations. He is said to have been born in the Greek seaport of Patara, Lycia in Asia Minor to wealthy Christian parents.[9] In one of the earliest attested and most famous incidents from his life, he is said to have rescued three girls from being forced into prostitution by dropping a sack of gold coins through the window of their house each night for three nights so their father could pay a dowry for each of them. Other early stories tell of him calming a storm at sea, saving three innocent soldiers from wrongful execution, and chopping down a tree possessed by a demon. In his youth, he is said to have made a pilgrimage to Egypt and the Palestine area. Shortly after his return, he became Bishop of Myra. He was later cast into prison during the persecution of Diocletian, but was released after the accession of Constantine. An early list makes him an attendee at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, but he is never mentioned in any writings by people who were actually at the council. Late, unsubstantiated legends claim that he was temporarily defrocked and imprisoned during the Council for slapping the heretic Arius. Another famous late legend tells how he resurrected three children, who had been murdered and pickled in brine by a butcher planning to sell them as pork during a famine.

Fewer than 200 years after Nicholas's death, the St. Nicholas Church was built in Myra under the orders of Theodosius II over the site of the church, where he had served as bishop and Nicholas's remains were moved to a sarcophagus in that church. In 1087, while the Greek Christian inhabitants of the region were subjugated by the newly arrived Muslim Seljuk Turks, and soon after their church was declared to be in schism by the Catholic church, a group of merchants from the Italian city of Bari removed the major bones of Nicholas's skeleton from his sarcophagus in the church without authorization and brought them to their hometown, where they are now enshrined in the Basilica di San Nicola. The remaining bone fragments from the sarcophagus were later removed by Venetian sailors and taken to Venice during the First Crusade. His relics in Bari are said to exude a miraculous watery substance known as "manna" or "myrrh", which some members of the faithful regard as possessing supernatural powers.

Saint Nicholas - Wikipedia
Wikipedia? You call that a credible source?
How can you expect me to take your anti-Santa rants seriously if you rely on such poor material.
:tonguewink:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Wikipedia? You call that a credible source?
How can you expect me to take your anti-Santa rants seriously if you rely on such poor material.
:tonguewink:

It's fine if you want to repeat what so many others claim (I have to wonder if any one of those think before they repeat) but the fact is, all in all, I've found it to be very credible.

How bout proving the Wikipedia info wrong instead? IOW, back up your claim.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Other scholars got to me before you did!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,215
9,976
The Void!
✟1,134,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think you meant what it seems obvious that you meant from the meaning of the words you sent.

Is it necessary for your to drop little hints, Philo? What is this, a riddling competition? Just say what you mean.
I mean that historical, cultural, social, metaphysical, and axiological analysis of any concept, whether it's "Mr. Santy" or any other metaphysically inclined figure, is needed. Read into my meaning here: philosophical evaluation and one's existential feelings all need to be taken into consideration.

Good. So you agree that the argument you give for believing in Jesus also works perfectly well proving a ridiculous proposition - that Santa Claus exists.
Yes, if by my saying 'yes' ALSO implies that you even know what my argument from Beauty even entails and where it begins and where it ends. Thus far from your responses, I'm not sure you do understand, and moreover, I really get the sense that you don't really care to understand either. But.............I could be wrong.

Logically speaking, an argument that can be used to prove a manifest absurdity that you yourself do not believe is not a good argument.
An argument that is employed in the consideration of one's own potential faith in some metaphysical entity isn't necessarily one that will convince another. Rather, when articulated by someone such as myself, it merely expresses my own thinking and gives others a possible similar model by which to make further considerations that they might also not have heretofore considered. I'm not saying that an argument from Beauty alone is going to be decisive on any particular issue. I'm merely saying that when it comes to either Jesus or Santa Claus, there is an Argument of Beauty involved as BUT ONE aspect of my overall engagement with these concepts as a thinking, breathing adult.

Ergo, your argument for Christianity is not a good one. As anyone could have told you the moment you said "I believe in Jesus Christ because it's such a beautiful idea".
Ergo, you haven't really even engaged here, so I'm not sure you're as up to speed with all of the nuances of the thread as you seem to be spitting forth that you are.

I read what they say, assume that they are not speaking with intent to deceive me, and then decipher their meaning.
...they're not intended to deceive. I think you're just behind in the game, that's all. Time for you to catch up!

If you say that you believe in Jesus Christ, I take you at your word. And if you say that you believe in Jesus Christ for a ridiculous reason, I am happy to help you see your error.
I never said I believe in Jesus Christ, or Saint Nick for that matter, for a ridiculous reason, especially not for any one singular ridiculous reason. But, if you don't want to try to understand another person's point of view in full, no one's going to force you to. On the other hand, if you persist in your remaining ignorant of another person's position, then no one will be forced to go forward with you in discussion either.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
It's fine if you want to repeat what so many others claim but the fact is, all in all, I've found it to be very credible.

How bout proving the Wikipedia info wrong instead? IOW, back up your claim.
You assert that a source that any person in the world can edit is a reliable and trustworthy one? Why, I've seen times on Wikipedia when it posted material that had already been thoroughly debunked!
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.