How do we know Santa Claus doesn't exist?

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Swan7

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This is a very interesting view. Allow me to tell you about my personal experience with ..."Santa".

My parents told me about "Santa" when I was a kid and I very much did believe in Santa. I thought he was a real person, just like when my mother told me about Jesus. I also thought he was just a person like Santa because you couldn't 'see' either of them. As I got older the belief fizzled out when I was finally told that Santa did not exist.

This was and is really dangerous because it messed with my belief in Jesus Christ as a child. They hold similarities to each other ie: Santa gives gifts, but so does God in a very different way. Yet one of them does not truly exist.

While there is no evidence for Santa to exist except in the minds of children in the form of a lie, there is evidence for God's existence.
 
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BigV

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While there is no evidence for Santa to exist except in the minds of children in the form of a lie, there is evidence for God's existence.

What, in your view, is the best evidence for God's existence?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Nice try, but no. The point isn't that science isn't useful, it's that the scientific method is not the only means by which we can know things. Are you going to actually try to defend your position or not?
Note also that if a criminal misuses scientific equipment, research, and so forth, to 'prove' something is or was true that is not true, well, it happens.....
Men/ mankind is known for being sinful, not truthful nor righteous.
 
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Swan7

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What, in your view, is the best evidence for God's existence?

Well, when I look at the world and how it is, it must have been formed. How trees grow and how water moves, how the stars are held in the night's sky.. all of this speaks to God's very existence. How babies are formed in the womb and also how scripture is also connected to His Creation. There's just no way that all this happened by accident, that would cause disorder, but we have order in the world. Everything has a purpose.
 
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Redac

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That's like saying.. science doesn't provide us with all knowledge, therefore, fairies exist.
Not even close. Are you legitimately confused by what I'm saying, or are you just trying to be clever?

What about my position that needs defending? You are the one who BELIEVES, right?
The point is that your position on how we can know things is self-refuting. You made the claim that scientific inquiry is the only way we can have sure knowledge of anything. The problem with your position is that that claim itself is not scientific in nature. We cannot take that claim and test it, formulate hypotheses, or otherwise use the scientific method to evaluate its truth value (and even if we could, using the scientific method to evaluate the viability of the scientific method would be question begging). Using your position -- that we can only be sure of knowledge by using science -- then we must conclude that we cannot be sure that the above claim is true, and accordingly we should be skeptical of any truth claims it produces about reality. Of course, then the foundation of your own epistemology crumbles.

In short, again, your epistemology is self-refuting and should be abandoned.
 
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BigV

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The problem with your position is that that claim itself is not scientific in nature. We cannot take that claim and test it, formulate hypotheses, or otherwise use the scientific method to evaluate its truth value (and even if we could, using the scientific method to evaluate the viability of the scientific method would be question begging). Using your position -- that we can only be sure of knowledge by using science -- then we must conclude that we cannot be sure that the above claim is true, and accordingly we should be skeptical of any truth claims it produces about reality. Of course, then the foundation of your own epistemology crumbles.

Are you saying that reason is circular? You can’t claim that reasonable conversation is better than gibberish because you have to use your reasoning skills to make a determination in the first place?

and then you come to FAITH? Problem of faith, of course, is that you can believe in anything by faith.
 
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BigV

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Well, when I look at the world and how it is, it must have been formed. How trees grow and how water moves, how the stars are held in the night's sky.. all of this speaks to God's very existence. How babies are formed in the womb and also how scripture is also connected to His Creation. There's just no way that all this happened by accident, that would cause disorder, but we have order in the world. Everything has a purpose.

when you look at world, which parts are you considering? Desert? Jungle?

Of course, we are not here by accident. We are a product of survival, hundreds of thousands of years of wars and disease and calamity. Our ancestors lived long enough to procreate and nurture their offspring and so on. If any of our ancestors died before giving life to their kids, we’d not be here today.

heck, it’s possible our tribes were at war with each other thousands of years ago.

I can appreciate the design argument but I disagree with creationism. There is too much evidence for evolution, although there are Christians who accept evolution as well.

If God of the Bible is real, and Bible is literally true, then for the majority of people this world with death, disease and wars is as best as it’s going to get and then eternal fire and suffering in hell.

How can the beautiful life on earth be a product of a designer who created an eternal hell?
 
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cloudyday2

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Sorry if this method has been suggested by somebody else in the thread, I would find changing ideas about Santa in the past versus today and then claim that a magical Santa living in the past and living today is not consistent with those changing ideas.

Here is the Wikipedia on Santa's history:
Santa Claus - Wikipedia
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sorry if this method has been suggested by somebody else in the thread, I would find changing ideas about Santa in the past versus today and then claim that a magical Santa living in the past and living today is not consistent with those changing ideas.

Here is the Wikipedia on Santa's history:
Santa Claus - Wikipedia

Sorry, Cloudy, that would be legit and great to ponder over IF the OP creator would have really meant what he said, but as you've probably seen clear evidence of, he wasn't TRULY interested in any thing we could historically surmise about dear ol' Santa. I don't know. Maybe he's "got it in" for Santa because in years past his stocking, which I'm assuming was hung by the chimney with care-----or maybe it wasn't since one can never be too careful with the use of a Christmas stocking, either was full of coal or apparently empty.

And if a person doesn't get a stocking full of candy and gifts, I can very much understand the grievance one might have with the jolly old elf. Darn you, Santa!
 
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Redac

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Are you saying that reason is circular? You can’t claim that reasonable conversation is better than gibberish because you have to use your reasoning skills to make a determination in the first place?
Let's try this again. You have made the following claim: scientific inquiry is the only method by which we can have sure knowledge of reality. I responded by asking how you know that scientific inquiry is the only method by which we can have sure knowledge of anything.

You made a claim, and I asked how you establish knowledge that that claim is true. If you are consistent with the claim you made, then the only way we could know if your assertion is true or not would be to subject it to scientific scrutiny. The problem is that the assertion itself is not something that can be scientifically tested. You cannot demonstrate the truth of the claim by using the scientific method.

Normally this isn't a problem, but if your position is that we can know things only through science, it is. The truth of your claim -- that we can only really know anything through science -- cannot be established via scientific means, and if we are to be consistent, we must be at best skeptical in accepting it, if we don't throw it out altogether. Of course at that point we are then free to dismiss the idea that only science is a valid means of obtaining knowledge, and at that point your own premises collapse in on themselves.

See the problem yet?

and then you come to FAITH? Problem of faith, of course, is that you can believe in anything by faith.
I haven't said a thing about faith so far.

I can’t tell if you’re joking or being serious. Amazing conclusion
Not an argument. Try reading through the above part of this post a couple times. If you still don't understand the problem with your epistemological position, we can go through it step by step.
 
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Swan7

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when you look at world, which parts are you considering? Desert? Jungle?
I meant everything that is made not by human hands.

Of course, we are not here by accident. We are a product of survival, hundreds of thousands of years of wars and disease and calamity. Our ancestors lived long enough to procreate and nurture their offspring and so on. If any of our ancestors died before giving life to their kids, we’d not be here today.

heck, it’s possible our tribes were at war with each other thousands of years ago.

I wasn't sure on your stance with that, thanks for clarifying.

I can appreciate the design argument but I disagree with creationism. There is too much evidence for evolution, although there are Christians who accept evolution as well.

I expected as much, but I also disagree with the view of evolution, as I'm sure you expect. I'm not sure why Christians would accept that view, to be honest. For evolution to be true then the "weak" would not be in existence, isn't that right? I believe evolution was practiced in history. It's actually quite interesting, because God strengthens our weaknesses: 2 Corinthians 12:9-10
 
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BigV

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Sorry if this method has been suggested by somebody else in the thread, I would find changing ideas about Santa in the past versus today and then claim that a magical Santa living in the past and living today is not consistent with those changing ideas.

what if changing ideas about Santa are evidence of Santa’s awesomeness? He is so beyond our comprehension that different ideas are just an example of human inability to fully comprehend him?

Im not serious btw
 
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Daniel9v9

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Do you only accept Christian miracles or also those of other religions and faiths?

Also, Christ does not claim to be God. This is done by inference. Not everyone who follows the New Testament accepts the proposition that Christ is God or claimed to be God.

To imply that one must or should believe in supposed miracles in other religions (by other deities or forces) in order to believe in miracles in the bible is a false conclusion, for the miracles in Scriptures serve a particular function in proving the deity of Christ and His saving work; it’s the fulfilment of OT prophecy.

All religions and faiths are exclusive, and so, to ask a question such as whether or not one believes in miracles in other religions betrays an underlying belief or presupposition that all religions are equally valid (Syncretism) or equally invalid (Atheism).

Christ does claim to be God through both words and action. It’s precisely for this reason that He was rejected and crucified. Moreover, it's not just one thing He said or did but everything that testifies to His divinity.

”To follow the New Testament“ is an interesting phrase. Can you follow the apostolic teachings in any true sense if you reject the divinity of Christ? No. To "follow the New Testament“ in a proper sense means adherence to what the apostles taught, which is what Christ taught, which is to be Christian, which is recognising both the full humanity and the full divinity of Christ. To deny or oppose this is explicitly not Christian and altogether a different religion, though outwardly, it may appear Christian.
 
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Daniel9v9

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We are way outside the scope of Santa Claus, but I would just say that Elohim and El and Yahweh are various Gods that have been absorbed into the Old Testament.

I think you might as well claim that Thor, Zeus and Vishnu are all names for Jesus. It will have the explanatory power.

Now, how many Gods do you believe in? When you are in heaven, how many thrones will there be and will you see the Father and Jesus sitting on same throne or different thrones? Will you see two one figure in heaven?

While gaining some popularity in the 1900s, this is an unhistorical and shallow notion, and it's very clear to anyone who has studied Scripture and history, that whoever makes these kinds of claims are uneducated about the subject matter.

For this reason, I think I'll drop out of this thread. But keep up reading the Bible and always try and understand it in its own natural context. :)
 
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expos4ever

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How can the beautiful life on earth be a product of a designer who created an eternal hell?
I agree, but would propose that, despite widespread opinion to the contrary, the Bible does not teach that there exists an eternal hell.
 
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expos4ever

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BigV said:
Also, Christ does not claim to be God. This is done by inference. Not everyone who follows the New Testament accepts the proposition that Christ is God or claimed to be God.
On balance, I think the most reasonable conclusion is that Jesus, at least as represented in the gospels, did indeed believe He was "God" incarnate.

Now I will agree that Jesus did not make many clear direct statements that He was God. However, what about the statement "“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).

Also, Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus "coming on the clouds". Any Jew who knew their Bible would know Jesus is identifying Himself with the "Son of Man" character from Daniel 7 who is given a throne next to God's own throne.

I think much of the evidence for the "Jesus believed He was God" position lies in Jesus's symbolic actions - for example choosing 12 disciples, echoing God's constituting of the 12 tribes.

It is a complex and interesting and subtle matter. But, on the whole, I think the Jesus we see in the gospels believes He is indeed God incarnate.
 
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