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How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

pat34lee

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The traditional Christian voice was that the Jews simply misunderstood the covenant from the get-go because of (1) hardness of hearts and (2) violation of the covenant at Sinai. Thus, the Epistle of Barnabas

There are reasons why the Gnostic gospels were excluded from the scriptures. Any supposed 'scripture' that goes directly against other scripture is false. Barnabas does not even have the defense that it is being mistranslated or misinterpreted.
 
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Qnts2

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I don't see the "New Covenant" in full effect yet until His return. And I don't really see it differing that much except in the sin department. How we are to behave as we go about our lives has not been changed, except that He now dwells within us. But that does not mean that we no longer need His instructions as given at Sinai.

I agree that the New Covenant is not fully in effect. I compare it to when the children of Israel received the Mosaic covenant at Mt. Sinai. They had the covenant, but it was not yet fully in effect until they entered the land of Israel.

However, as I have explained before on this forum, there are many changes which took place starting with the receiving of the New Covenant, even not fully in place, which are very different then the Mosaic covenant. And the indwelling makes a humongous difference. For me, it was not just continue as I was, except now He dwells in me. Being born from above, the indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit, was absolutely huge and made a huge difference in how I viewed and approached life. And that indwelling is a major reason why the New Covenant is different.
 
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brinny

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yedida

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I agree that the New Covenant is not fully in effect. I compare it to when the children of Israel received the Mosaic covenant at Mt. Sinai. They had the covenant, but it was not yet fully in effect until they entered the land of Israel.

However, as I have explained before on this forum, there are many changes which took place starting with the receiving of the New Covenant, even not fully in place, which are very different then the Mosaic covenant. And the indwelling makes a humongous difference. For me, it was not just continue as I was, except now He dwells in me. Being born from above, the indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit, was absolutely huge and made a huge difference in how I viewed and approached life. And that indwelling is a major reason why the New Covenant is different.

I see it like a couple who deeply in love chose to marry. Down the road it went down hill and they divorce. A few years later, they meet up again and find they are still in love and they fall even more deeply in love and decide to wed again. Is it the same covenant? the same marriage? No. The vows are the same but it's a new covenant between them now, they had broken the first. So, it's the same vows, it's a new or renewed covenant, and the people are different - they're older, wiser, more experienced, they've grown in every way.
Or it can even be seen as a couple who has never divorced, but after 25 years choose to renew their vows. It is the same marriage, the same vows but the old has been renewed by older wiser changed people. People more readily able, equipped to keep those vows of the original covenant.

If God changed, when He says He doesn't, then it's all over for us and we can't trust Him.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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When I was about 3 years old, my father gave me a tricycle. When I was in high school, he gave me a multi-speed bicycle. And when I reach my junior year in college, he gave me a car.

When he gave me the tricycle it was not bad. It was great. But, if he gave me that same tricycle when I was a junior in college, it wouldn't have been so great.

God gave the Mosaic covenant to the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai and it was very very good. God offered the New Covenant thru His Son and it is a better covenant. Just as the tricycle was very very good, but in college, the car was better. God doesn't change. But we do. Under the New Covenant, we change significantly.

Good analogy as it concerns how something being deemed "good" for a time/season doesn't mean that other new things cannot come that are also "good" for the season of life you're in and allowing for those previous "good" things to be remembered for what they were.


Shared more before elsewhere ( #136 )--but as said before, if reading through the Book of Hebrews and other texts, the New Covenant has been initiated and we are no longer bound to walk fully in the Mosaic Covenant since that specific Covenant could never offer what Yeshua alone can bring in the New Deal He gives. He fulfilled the Law in order to make room for New Law to be initiated, honoring the OT in what it pointed to while taking others to Himself (As the Destination) and leading them into something beautiful....like driving an old car that has much value since it helps with many things (i.e. transportation primarily) and yet getting out of that one in order to walk into another NEW Car that has much of the same schematics as an older program except new parts are included that allow one to go much further than what the Older Car enabled them to do.


As said before, I've always tended to see the Law of Moses through the eyes of Christ in the same way one would see the laws of the U.S if going to D.C. For there've been many developments within our nation's history.....and some things that've progressed. Whereas some things that changed NEEDED to do so due to their not being just (as with laws concerning slavery, for popular example), not all things that changed were a sign of something negative occurring previously. For something progressing doesn't mean what used to occur before is somehow bad. To say such would be no more logical than saying that the artwork or artifacts in a Museum such as Smithsonian National Musuem in Washington D.C are somehow "bad" because we don't use them as often anymore. They retain their status of "good" and are still appreciated as the foundation for other developments---but they are not what we still seek to operate in.

It's the same way with other things in life that others experience....and it can alter. For just as a change from something before doesn't mean that it was "bad" in the past, something being good from the past doesn't mean that it is automatically good in the present or that its always applicable to every setting. I'm reminded of curfews...as a 7:00pm curfew being beneficial for children at a certain age doesn't mean that it stops being considered as "good" when more freedoms are given for the children as they grow older. Some things remain constant, such as the fact that being responsible (the purpose behind curfew) and learning boundaries....even though a child looks back acknowleding the previous curfew was beneficial/can be learned from while the new/extended freedoms are ALSO good. But if the child is required to walk in the same way as they were when they were truly a child, then it'd be destructive---and you'd end up having grown up children in the house who are not able to function on their own even when they're being told by the parents to be "adults" while still being placed under things which were given for a season.

I'm reminded of what occurred with the religious leaders trying to trap Jesus by discussing the laws of Moses in regards to divorce ( Deuteronomy 24:2-4 / Deuteronomy 24 )---as they were focused on what Moses gave in the law and the Lord brought them back to the focus of how things were MEANT to be....and why laws were given ( Matthew 19:7-9 / Matthew 19, Mark 10:4-6/ Mark 10 ) Where they had actually glorifed one aspect of what Moses said, the Lord made clear that a specific law was never given because the Lord wanted others to walk in that for all time...but rather, it was given since the people were corrupt/wouldn't honor him and a system had to be given to restrain the damage that could be done to others when marriage wasn't upheld.

The same thing goes for laws made about polygamy, as the Law stated that a man could take another wife as long as he still provided for his first wife (Exo.21:10).
 
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Qnts2

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I see it like a couple who deeply in love chose to marry. Down the road it went down hill and they divorce. A few years later, they meet up again and find they are still in love and they fall even more deeply in love and decide to wed again. Is it the same covenant? the same marriage? No. The vows are the same but it's a new covenant between them now, they had broken the first. So, it's the same vows, it's a new or renewed covenant, and the people are different - they're older, wiser, more experienced, they've grown in every way.
Or it can even be seen as a couple who has never divorced, but after 25 years choose to renew their vows. It is the same marriage, the same vows but the old has been renewed by older wiser changed people. People more readily able, equipped to keep those vows of the original covenant.

If God changed, when He says He doesn't, then it's all over for us and we can't trust Him.

I guess I see it differently. I was under the Mosaic covenant before knowing that Jesus/Yeshua was the Messiah, and the Savior for Jews and Gentiles. So, I was 'married' with a covenant, but not with Jesus who brings the New Covenant. To be Jewish is to be born into the Mosaic covenant. But being in the Mosaic covenant is not the same as the New Covenant. To be in the New Covenant, is a decision made, not by birth.

I do not see God as changing because the covenant changed. If that were true, God changed when He expelled Adam and Eve from the garden. And He changed again when He gave each of the covenants. After all, one time He nails just about all of creation with a flood, and then says He will never send a world wide flood again, in a different covenant. God stays the same but us humans don't see God's full plan stretching from creation to the new heavens and the new earth. Things change. Covenants change. God and His plan never change. If we were driving from the east coast to California, scenary changes. Because we see different things doesn't mean the plan has changed or the author of the plan.

As I said, when I accepted Yeshua, I changed. Everything looked different to me, even though I was doing many of the same things, I was doing them for very different reasons and motivations, which caused me to do things differently.
 
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Ludwig van Beethoven

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Happy Sukkot dear fiends!

I have read all posts of this thread, thank for your kind replies. Recently I am attacked and criticized for the sake of MJ on web. I feel very tired. But fortunately I am one of administrators of a Chinese Christianity-Judaism relationship web group and the biggest Chinese Judaism web group. I have authority to delete the posts or kick off the publishers of them that condemn MJ or J or C as heresy. And now I have a Christian church to visit on Sunday, I don’t know how long I can stay there. The leader of it likes Romanism.

Anyway, Have a blessed Sukkot!

Sukkah-1.jpg





That is an Excellent Sukkah! Great Job!:clap:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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there are many changes which took place starting with the receiving of the New Covenant, even not fully in place, which are very different then the Mosaic covenant. And the indwelling makes a humongous difference. For me, it was not just continue as I was, except now He dwells in me. Being born from above, the indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit, was absolutely huge and made a huge difference in how I viewed and approached life. And that indwelling is a major reason why the New Covenant is different.

Seeing that believers have been given the Holy Spirit and redeemed by the Blood as Christ noted, there's a lot of reasons why the New Covenant i in place even as it is not fully finished until the return of Christ--no different than buying a house/having it "finished" concerning ownership and rights even while moving the furniture in takes time..as one would never say that the home itself doesn't belong to the people and has yet to be bought because people haven't moved in yet. Transitions taking place over time don't change the realtiy that there's a new era for that family which began when they got the deeds.

I like what you noted on the New Covenant as you said before ( )
 
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yonah_mishael

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I don't think so. Peter was not living as a gentile.

So, what did Paul mean when he said the following to Peter? ἐθνικῶς καὶ οὐκ Ἰουδαϊκῶς ζῇς. What does this possibly mean except that either you are wrong about this or Paul was wrong about this? Paul was a witness. You are not. Peter was most certainly living as a Gentile.
 
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yonah_mishael

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There are reasons why the Gnostic gospels were excluded from the scriptures. Any supposed 'scripture' that goes directly against other scripture is false. Barnabas does not even have the defense that it is being mistranslated or misinterpreted.

There was much not included in the New Testament that did not come from Gnostic sources. In fact, even the Gospels that we have indicate that there were other accounts before them from which they pulled their information. Why didn't we receive those accounts?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by pat34lee I don't think so. Peter was not living as a gentile.
So, what did Paul mean when he said the following to Peter? ἐθνικῶς καὶ οὐκ Ἰουδαϊκῶς ζῇς. What does this possibly mean except that either you are wrong about this or Paul was wrong about this? Paul was a witness. You are not. Peter was most certainly living as a Gentile.
Maybe it's a translation problem?

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

NKJV) Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before [them] all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

NASB) Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Textus Rec.) Galatians 2:14
all ote eidon oti ouk orqopodousin proV thn alhqeian tou euaggeliou eipon tw petrw emprosqen pantwn ei su ioudaioV uparcwn eqnikwV zhV kai ouk ioudaikwV ti ta eqnh anagkazeiV ioudaizein

W-H ) Galatians 2:14
all ote eidon oti ouk orqopodousin proV thn alhqeian tou euaggeliou eipon tw khfa emprosqen pantwn ei su ioudaioV uparcwn eqnikwV kai ouk ioudaikwV zhV pwV ta eqnh anagkazeiV ioudaizein

...
 
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ananda

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So, what did Paul mean when he said the following to Peter? ἐθνικῶς καὶ οὐκ Ἰουδαϊκῶς ζῇς. What does this possibly mean except that either you are wrong about this or Paul was wrong about this? Paul was a witness. You are not. Peter was most certainly living as a Gentile.
... unless Paul was lying ...

ἀλλ᾽ ὑπάρχων πανοῦργος δόλῳ ὑμᾶς ἔλαβον ... :D
 
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yedida

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... unless Paul was lying ...

ἀλλ᾽ ὑπάρχων πανοῦργος δόλῳ ὑμᾶς ἔλαβον ... :D

That's a possibility, Luke could have been the one to embellish, OR someone not named made the changes to suit a particular agenda. That last option is the one I choose to agree with. I cannot with good conscience see these two men that God seems to have chosen lying so blatantly. It could happen, it's possible that it even made it into God's book, but I don't think that's what happened. I really do believe that those who had the final say in what people in general were reading made the changes. When we have nothing but mss made from 5th or 6th generation copies - why is that so hard to believe, that the "higher ups" did some minor tweaking, editing, if you will - and that's what we have to work with.
That's the only thing that makes sense to me.
 
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pat34lee

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So, what did Paul mean when he said the following to Peter? ἐθνικῶς καὶ οὐκ Ἰουδαϊκῶς ζῇς. What does this possibly mean except that either you are wrong about this or Paul was wrong about this? Paul was a witness. You are not. Peter was most certainly living as a Gentile.

Go back a couple verses. Peter was eating with the gentiles contrary to tradition. Then he was being hypocritical when the other Jews arrived, staying away from the gentiles. This was the controversy.
 
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pat34lee

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There was much not included in the New Testament that did not come from Gnostic sources. In fact, even the Gospels that we have indicate that there were other accounts before them from which they pulled their information. Why didn't we receive those accounts?

Because the original Hebrew gospels were lost or destroyed. Between the Romans, the anti-messianic Jews and later anti-Jewish christians, its a miracle the NT wasn't completely destroyed or changed beyond recognition.
 
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ananda

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I cannot with good conscience see these two men that God seems to have chosen lying so blatantly. It could happen, it's possible that it even made it into God's book, but I don't think that's what happened.
What about Judas? Messiah clearly chose Judas, and he became part of the inner group of twelve, yet he still betrayed Him.
 
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visionary

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Go back a couple verses. Peter was eating with the gentiles contrary to tradition. Then he was being hypocritical when the other Jews arrived, staying away from the gentiles. This was the controversy.
Context... and that is how I read it, in context..and came to the same conclusions as you.:thumbsup:
 
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yedida

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What about Judas? Messiah clearly chose Judas, and he became part of the inner group of twelve, yet he still betrayed Him.

It was prophesied that one of his own would do such a thing. One of them had to.
 
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