How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

yedida

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What original Hebrew gospels? Is there a reason you trust the non-original Greek documents that you have received? Is there a reason that you think these these ones are good enough, even though they aren’t the originals or even written in the same language as the originals, if you’re right? Do you think this was really the best means that God, the Omnipotent, had for preserving the most important revelation in world history? Couldn’t he have come up with a better way of transmitting his truth from generation to generation than to have someone write inspiriting Holy Writ that would get translated into another language (possibly imperfectly), lost and then misunderstood in subsequent generations?

I know you no longer have any affinity for the Genesis story or any of the Bible (other than something interesting to read and debate) but we do, so I ask: Don't you think God knew what Adam would do? Yet He put the tree in the midst of the garden anyway.
Don't you think He knew what would become of Balaam and yet He used him as His prophet for a minute.
Don't you think He knew that Abraham would not be able to wait 25 years from the promise of Isaac without deciding to give God a helping hand?
Don't you think He knew what would happen to all those Isralites if He caused their new leader to be absent from them for such a long time?
He knew. And He also knew the difficulties with all the different languages and how His word would be dispersed with such problems.
Perhaps He wanted us to test everything. We have a pretty good indication that the Torah and much of the rest of the Tanakh (that we have today) has not been corrupted to the point of no longer being almost identical to the oldest mss that we have found. Can't say that about the Apostolic Writings.
We have to trust something of it, so I choose Yeshua's words. The rest is commentary to be tested by the Torah. If something doesn't agree, a choice has to be made. I'll go with what came before. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but that's the stand I choose to make.
 
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yedida

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Erm, do we?

That is news to me.

Speaking for myself, and for what small part of Anglicanism I can be regarded as being a part of, I have no problem with Messianics, and I respect their beliefs very highly. If it were possible for me to live a Messianic life, I would. I know far too little about it, however, so instead of fake Messianic I settle for authentic Anglo Catholic. If I can't even remember to remember to say the Angelus regularly, I would be hopeless trying to add appropriate Sabbath observance, let alone anything else.

I think authentic Messianic Christianity is the closest form to that of the Lord himself, his mother and the apostles. I don't know any Anglican who would regard that, or the aspiration to live a similar life, as crazy.

Thank you very much! You're a welcome breath of beautiful fresh air!
It isn't as difficult as you seem to think. If God calls you to walk this path (and I really do believe that it's a calling), He gives the grace that is needed to "remember the Sabbath." Just as He gives you the grace you need to walk the path He's called you to walk at this time. ;)
 
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Avodat

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Hello yusu:

Find a denomination you feel comfortable with. If one is not near, you needn't go to any church but to pray to God and Jesus by yourself. You can read and interpret the bible on your own and get help on the internet. This will guarantee your salvation and acceptance into heaven. You don't need any church.

I would suggest biblical reading at: Bible Gateway
Inspiration at: Billy Graham Org


zara ...:idea:


Yeah, you can pick bits and pieces from 1000's of sites and make up your own religion, just as you go in the store and buy a bit of this or a bit of that etc. You can hear anything you want to in order to tickle your ears!

The globalisation of 'the Church' via the internet is what is causing its downfall. You need the discipline of a congregation around you in order to learn, discern, have support, friendship, love etc etc. None of these things can come via the internet - it is cold, friendless, unhelpful and always after just one thing: your donations (even in those ministries that declare themselves a 'faith' ministry). I know many congregations, especially in America it seems from our friends there, that only a few Churches seem to offer these key pastoral things, but that is not a reflection of Churches (or Messianic congregations) everywhere in the world.
 
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Catherineanne

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All that serve wickedness fight against God constantly. We learn of this in the Gospels.

"destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness:..." 1 timothy 6:5

God is greater.

I think you are mistaken. All people are made in the image of God, and belong to God.

However, this is off topic to this thread, which is about the attitude of mainstream Christianity to Messianic Judaism.
 
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Catherineanne

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Thank you very much! You're a welcome breath of beautiful fresh air!
It isn't as difficult as you seem to think. If God calls you to walk this path (and I really do believe that it's a calling), He gives the grace that is needed to "remember the Sabbath." Just as He gives you the grace you need to walk the path He's called you to walk at this time. ;)

That is most kind of you. His grace is certainly generous and overflowing. My capacity to use it is the limiting factor.

I am agoraphobic (among many other things), and struggle just to get to Mass each day and then home again. I do very little else, to be honest. My present calling is to be a mother to my daughter, and to remain faithful to daily Mass as far as I am able to. I do what I can in and for my church, and at the school where I am a governor. I was born an Anglican, and I am still an Anglican, although I have moved to the higher side over the years. I accept the authority of my priest, (which in itself is a miracle because I don't accept anyone else's authority very easily at all!), and I try to follow his advice.

I think Father would probably say the same as the Lord on this one. I can be a friend to Messianics, without it necessarily being my own calling at this time. And if the Lord wants me to understand differently, then no doubt he will find a way to let me know, which means that Father would have to agree as well. :wave:

Anglo Catholics (and Romans for that matter) honour Saturday as particularly dedicated to Our Lady. So every Saturday is special to her, and honoured particularly because of her. One quiet way of doing that is to wear a bit of blue on Saturdays, in her honour, even if nobody sees it. Blue is Our Lady's colour. I am afraid that and attending Mass in honour of Our Lady is probably the best I can do.
 
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Catherineanne

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Hello yusu:

Find a denomination you feel comfortable with. If one is not near, you needn't go to any church but to pray to God and Jesus by yourself. You can read and interpret the bible on your own and get help on the internet. This will guarantee your salvation and acceptance into heaven. You don't need any church.

I would suggest biblical reading at: Bible Gateway
Inspiration at: Billy Graham Org


zara ...:idea:

I am not sure where you get your theology from, but the Bible does not say we can go it alone as Christians. The Bible says we are part of a church; the Body of Christ. Therefore we do indeed need some form of community around us. The little finger can't simply decide to go off and live on its own; it has to interact with the rest of the body, supporting and being supported in turn, and the same goes for believers.

Neither are there any 'guarantees' of salvation and acceptance for anyone until we stand before the Lord; any one of us could find that our faith is tested beyond our endurance. That is why we pray 'deliver us from evil' in the Lord's prayer, pretty well every day.
 
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Catherineanne

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Messianic Judaism is an evangelical Christian denomination to offer an option for the Jewish population to join the flock. They accept that Jesus is the Messiah and that Jesus is the salvation for humans to atone for sin and to enter heaven. They believe in the Old and New Testaments and the basic dogma of the evangelical denominations of Christianity. The principal difference is that they believe in "One God" and reject the invalid "Trinity" concept that many Christians reject.

As other Christian Messianic denominations, they are welcome into the flock.

zara

Given that your definition of 'Christian' leaves a little to be desired, I do hope you will forgive me if I reach for a pinch of salt before being at all convinced by your definition of messianic.

Thanks muchly.

For the record, a Christian is someone who, inter alia, believes in God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God. See the Nicene creed for further details.

Someone who rejects the Trinitarian God may be many wonderful things, but mainstream Christian he certainly ain't, not in this Forum anyway.

Good luck with that one.
 
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Catherineanne

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There was much not included in the New Testament that did not come from Gnostic sources. In fact, even the Gospels that we have indicate that there were other accounts before them from which they pulled their information. Why didn't we receive those accounts?

Simple answer; we did.

The sources from which the Gospels were written are likely to have been collections of sayings of the Lord. The Gospels were written around those sayings at the point when the early church was in danger of losing the eye witness accounts of the apostles.

I think we can be pretty certain that in writing the Gospel accounts the writers made sure that none of the collected sayings of the Lord were lost or forgotten. They are all included.

The original manuscripts did not survive, but then the original manuscripts of Moses, or of David or of Solomon have not survived either, and yet we know what they wrote/dictated, don't we? Same thing.
 
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Catherineanne

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Because the original Hebrew gospels were lost or destroyed. Between the Romans, the anti-messianic Jews and later anti-Jewish christians, its a miracle the NT wasn't completely destroyed or changed beyond recognition.

The Gospels were not written in Hebrew. They were written in Greek.

The collected sayings of the Lord may have been written in a language other than Greek, but it is unlikely, to be honest. That would presuppose a literate society with a general ability to write Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, which I think is not realistic. What is far more likely is that when wanting to provide a written record, the Gospel writers used a well established language, with a longstanding literary tradition. They went to Greek scribes, and the Greek scribes wrote the gospels to their dictation.

Why Greek and not Latin? Because Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire, as Latin was of Christian Europe, and as English is for much of the world today.

St Paul was capable of writing, but even he did not write his own letters. When he adds a postscript in his own hand he remarks on how large his letters are, compared with those of the scribe. In other words, he could write, but he was not adept at it.

Because we learn to read and write at the same time we assume the two go together. They don't. It is more than possible to learn to read a language without having the ability to write it, and this would have been the case for the majority of people in the ancient world. If they could read it would not be much. And if they could read, they would not necessarily be able to write. And even if they could do both, they would use a scribe to write letters for them, and perhaps also to read and translate where necessary those they received.
 
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yonah_mishael

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There is a difference between then and now. The rabbis have had almost 2000 years to warp Judaism into an anti-christian cocoon wrapped around the Jewish people.

That’s a really awful thing to say.

You did not mention buying something to eat. Sitting in McDonald's and using your laptop is not breaking Shabbat unless you are doing business on it. Or, unless you buy into tradition.

Using a computer on Shabbat is a violation of doing work all in itself. This is a universal understood by all Jews. How would you define מְלָאכָה mlachah (used most commonly in the Torah to refer to craftsmanship or handiwork)? Traditionally, it is defined in 39 categories of things that were performed in the construction of the tabernacle in the wilderness. The commandment specifically says that you will do no mlachah on Shabbat. In fact, even sitting in McDonald’s is enough to violate Shabbat, since those who pass by (if they know me – not that anyone in New York knows me!) would assume that I had bought something to eat. (I didn’t of course. I was sitting there because of the free Internet, with my computer and book that I’m reading.)

Set Peter and Paul into today. The gentiles they were with were not just any gentiles off the street, but those who were followers of Yeshua and the Torah, namely messianics of today.

What we see in the Acts of the Apostles is a letter written to forbid Gentile believers from eating three things: (1) meat offered to idols; (2) blood; and, (3) the meat of strangled animals. This is a far cry from the kosher standards of Jewish food, even assuming differences between then and now. We can actually be certain that Paul didn’t teach even these restrictions, since he stated outright in his writings that “we know an idol is nothing” and that anyone who eats the meat sacrified to idols does so “with faith” and is not guilty before God. He specifically said that those who do not eat should not judge those who do, and those who eat should not look down on those who do not eat — whom he described as “weak of faith.”

1 Corinthians 8:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. (NIV)​

There is no reason to imagine that Paul did not teach this very thing in his congregation in Antioch, and it was the weak conscience of those who came from James that caused Peter, Barnabas and the rest of the Jews to fall into hypocrisy (in Romans 14, he does not say weak conscience but weak faith that keeps someone from eating “all things”).

If messianics can eat clean today, and some even keep fully kosher, why couldn't those that Peter ate with? The problem wasn't with the food, but the company he kept which broke the tradition of not eating with non-Jews.

The problem was very much with the food. A Jew who ate in the home of a Gentile was considered defiled because of the types of things that they brought into their homes as food – in addition to the stereotypical practices of Gentiles at the time. Your failure to acknowledge this is striking. The issue was certainly that James’ emissaries had come to see what was going on in Paul’s congregations, and when they found Peter and the others eating things that were forbidden, they called them out for it – and at their instigation, Peter withdrew from fellowship with the congregation. Paul was steamed and called him on the carpet for it, stating that he was essentially destroying the work of God. Elsewhere (in Ephesians) it is at least claimed that Paul wrote about the work of God bringing down the division between the two bodies – Jews and Gentiles – and he states that this division was brought down through the cross.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two [that is, the “circumcision” (Jews) and “uncircumcision” (Gentiles) as expressed above in this chapter], thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. (New International Version)​

The fact that Peter, Barnabas and the rest withdrew from the Gentiles represented to Paul a failure to recognize the completed work of God, and it was all about their insistence on the importance of keeping Torah. Paul opposed them staunchly and vehemently, making it clear that Jesus’ death was an abolishment of the Torah and the Mitzvah (commandment) and that through the cross there was no longer any dividing barrier between Jew and Gentile, but that all would have access to God in the same way – and that was without Torah.

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. (New International Version)​

The phrase “apart from the law” here in Greek is χωρὶς νόμου, “without law.” The righteousness of God that Paul preached was without the Torah. He said it so often and in so many ways that it should be clear enough.
 
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Avodat

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Messianic Judaism is an evangelical Christian denomination to offer an option for the Jewish population to join the flock. They accept that Jesus is the Messiah and that Jesus is the salvation for humans to atone for sin and to enter heaven. They believe in the Old and New Testaments and the basic dogma of the evangelical denominations of Christianity. The principal difference is that they believe in "One God" and reject the invalid "Trinity" concept that many Christians reject.

As other Christian Messianic denominations, they are welcome into the flock.

zara

I don't think many Christians reject the Trinity, actually. There are a few Messianics on here who do not accept the Trinity - you can tell by their icon. Obviously our Jewish friends on here do not, but none of us have a problem with that. Christians believe in one G_d, too, or had that escaped you? How many G_d's do you think Christian's serve, if not one?

Not everyone here is evangelical - do you know what the word means? What do you regard as the 'dogma' of trhe evangelical movement? If you know what it means, you will see that most of us are post-evangelical (not in the sense that Tomlinson uses the word), in that we believe there is much, much more to the Scriptures that just a serious reading of the text would allow. That drives us to see the validity of both Jewish and Christian teachings and the impact they should have on our lives, as we try to live according to the whole of scripture.

PS Bebbington defines evangelicalism as: Crucicentrism, Biblicism, Activism and Conversionism. Messianics go much further than that so we are post-evangelical but not fundamentalists.
 
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yonah_mishael

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The Gospels were not written in Hebrew. They were written in Greek.

The collected sayings of the Lord may have been written in a language other than Greek, but it is unlikely, to be honest. That would presuppose a literate society with a general ability to write Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, which I think is not realistic. What is far more likely is that when wanting to provide a written record, the Gospel writers used a well established language, with a longstanding literary tradition. They went to Greek scribes, and the Greek scribes wrote the gospels to their dictation.

Why Greek and not Latin? Because Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire, as Latin was of Christian Europe, and as English is for much of the world today.

St Paul was capable of writing, but even he did not write his own letters. When he adds a postscript in his own hand he remarks on how large his letters are, compared with those of the scribe. In other words, he could write, but he was not adept at it.

Because we learn to read and write at the same time we assume the two go together. They don't. It is more than possible to learn to read a language without having the ability to write it, and this would have been the case for the majority of people in the ancient world. If they could read it would not be much. And if they could read, they would not necessarily be able to write. And even if they could do both, they would use a scribe to write letters for them, and perhaps also to read and translate where necessary those they received.

Absolutely.
 
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Catherineanne

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We who? :)
If one denies oneself, there is no longer a we, but God that has joyfully fulfilled us entirely, fully. We have escaped the death of self and become one with the eternal life, God Himself. All goodness, all purity, all perfection is God alone. The wicked world perishes, God is eternal. May God bless.

Godly fear is a good thing. Humbleness before God, for He alone is worthy.
Perishing worldly fear is against God. For worldly fear has to do with torment. Perishing fear, those that serve the perishing, the wicked.
None is good enough, only God Himself.

I am getting rather fond of your posts, someguy, but is there any chance of this one in English? I am afraid I am not as fluent in gibberish as I might be.

Thanks. :wave:
 
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yonah_mishael

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Simple answer; we did.

The sources from which the Gospels were written are likely to have been collections of sayings of the Lord. The Gospels were written around those sayings at the point when the early church was in danger of losing the eye witness accounts of the apostles.

We can identify five gospel sources: (1) text that is common to Matthew, Mark and Luke; (2) text that is common to Matthew and Luke (taken from “Q”); (3) text that is unique to Matthew; (4) text that is unique to Luke; and, (5) the gospel of John (which shares none of the stories that the other gospels have). The most interesting, in my opinion, is where the text is shared between the three Synoptics and altered for whatever reason. For example, as Bart Ehrman discusses in Misquoting Jesus, Mark presents Jesus in anguish as he goes to the cross, while Luke removes all of the struggle and emotion from the descriptions at each point. Luke presents Jesus as resolute, knowing why he is going to the cross and certain that God will be with him in the end. Mark presents him as in such anguish that he sweats drops of blood, etc. We know that Luke used Mark as a source, so we have to ask ourselves why Luke removed these things from his record? Ehrman makes a good suggestion in his book, but I don’t want to spoil it for you. ;)

I think we can be pretty certain that in writing the Gospel accounts the writers made sure that none of the collected sayings of the Lord were lost or forgotten. They are all included.

I don’t think so. I’m not sure why you think that we have received so much of it. The synoptics do not claim to present us with more than a single year of the life of Jesus (though, in order to complement John’s apparent three Passover meals, we have generally been told that they represent three years – even though only one Passover takes place in the Synoptics), and that can hardly be everything that Jesus taught. Perhaps he actually taught something that would clarify the theological arguments carried out today by those who follow him. What if he had laid down more specifics about whether or not his followers need to keep the Law (which Matthew answers in the affirmative, while the other gospels give no opinion on this, and Paul comes out against it)? Wouldn’t that have cleared up the question so that it wouldn’t become a debate in the church so much later? I imagine that there are a lot of things that Jesus did and said that would have been useful in a reconstruction of his life, had we heard of them.

The original manuscripts did not survive, but then the original manuscripts of Moses, or of David or of Solomon have not survived either, and yet we know what they wrote/dictated, don't we? Same thing.

I agree that it’s the same problem, but I would take it the other way – as reason to question the validity of the entire Bible. If people have faith in God, it needs to be for good reasons, and it should probably be separate from any claims to plenary verbal inspiration.
 
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yonah_mishael

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I am getting rather fond of your posts, someguy, but is there any chance of this one in English? I am afraid I am not as fluent in gibberish as I might be.

Thanks. :wave:

I’m glad you’re the one who said it, not me. :)
 
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