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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    The Article is spinning but when the KJV of the Bible is your only spirit of truth what can you expect but to welcome the errors and spin any decent that proves KJV a bad translation

    Of course it is a pagan holiday. But I know you do not care for KJV is full of errors. Of course the dates don't line up an Rome merge Easter and Passover holidays so the pagan friends could joint into the festivity with pagan Easter eggs, pagan Easter bunnies etc. Rome made everything the same to merge Baal with Christianity. If you believe Rome had it right which is the case with KJV mis-translation.

    However, early Christianity made a pragmatic acceptance of ancient pagan practises, most of which we enjoy today at Easter. The general symbolic story of the death of the son (sun) on a cross (the constellation of the Southern Cross) and his rebirth, overcoming the powers of darkness, was a well worn story in the ancient world. There were plenty of parallel, rival resurrected saviours too.

    The Sumerian goddess Inanna, or Ishtar, was hung naked on a stake, and was subsequently resurrected and ascended from the underworld. One of the oldest resurrection myths is Egyptian Horus. Born on 25 December, Horus and his damaged eye became symbols of life and rebirth. Mithras was born on what we now call Christmas day, and his followers celebrated the spring equinox. Even as late as the 4th century AD, the sol invictus, associated with Mithras, was the last great pagan cult the church had to overcome. Dionysus was a divine child, resurrected by his grandmother. Dionysus also brought his mum, Semele, back to life.

    In an ironic twist, the Cybele cult flourished on today's Vatican Hill. Cybele's lover Attis, was born of a virgin, died and was reborn annually. This spring festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday, rising to a crescendo after three days, in rejoicing over the resurrection. There was violent conflict on Vatican Hill in the early days of Christianity between the Jesus worshippers and pagans who quarrelled over whose God was the true, and whose the imitation. What is interesting to note here is that in the ancient world, wherever you had popular resurrected god myths, Christianity found lots of converts. So, eventually Christianity came to an accommodation with the pagan Spring festival. Although we see no celebration of Easter in the New Testament, early church fathers celebrated it, and today many churches are offering "sunrise services" at Easter – an obvious pagan solar celebration. The date of Easter is not fixed, but instead is governed by the phases of the moon – how pagan is that?

    Advertisement
    All the fun things about Easter are pagan. Bunnies are a leftover from the pagan festival of Eostre, a great northern goddess whose symbol was a rabbit or hare. Exchange of eggs is an ancient custom, celebrated by many cultures. Hot cross buns are very ancient too. In the Old Testament we see the Israelites baking sweet buns for an idol, and religious leaders trying to put a stop to it. The early church clergy also tried to put a stop to sacred cakes being baked at Easter. In the end, in the face of defiant cake-baking pagan women, they gave up and blessed the cake instead.

    Easter is essentially a pagan festival which is celebrated with cards, gifts and novelty Easter products, because it's fun and the ancient symbolism still works. It's always struck me that the power of nature and the longer days are often most felt in modern towns and cities, where we set off to work without putting on our car headlights and when our alarm clock goes off in the mornings, the streetlights outside are not still on because of the darkness.

    What better way to celebrate, than to bite the head off the bunny goddess, go to a "sunrise service", get yourself a sticky-footed fluffy chick and stick it on your TV, whilst helping yourself to a hefty slice of pagan simnel cake? Happy Easter everyone!
     
  2. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Article is not spinning, it's you, in order to promote your false doctrine. It's impossible that it could have been Pascha being referred to, and was the Pagan Easter holiday being celebrated at the time. And of course, your typical response is that the King James Bible is our "only source of spiritual truth". No, the Bible is our foundation (what's yours, some false spirit) and the Holy Spirit is our spiritual source nd gives us the discernment to interpret God's word. Answer this question, you pointed out the Greek as your source of interpretation, didn't you? And I posted the Strong's Greek definition. Tell me why in the Strong's he mentions not just Passover, but also Easter, if they are both one and the same (or that's your assumed explanation?

    What does the Bible say about Easter? | Bibleinfo.com
     
  3. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "However, early Christianity made a pragmatic acceptance of ancient pagan practises, most of which we enjoy today at Easter. The general symbolic story of the death of the son (sun) on a cross (the constellation of the Southern Cross) and his rebirth, overcoming the powers of darkness, was a well worn story in the ancient world. There were plenty of parallel, rival resurrected saviours too."
    Not the original church, which consisted of the New Testament Apostles. This came much later, after they were all gone. No celebration of any of those pagan holidays in order to try and "lure" non-believers into Christianity. The original church did not use deception or dishonesty to win more converts. They used the pure word and the truth to convert people.
     
  4. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From the article:
    "The Old Testament teaches that the DAY OF PASSOVER started the FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD. Notice in the following Scripture that the Day Of Passover occurred on the 14th day of the first month, but the Feast Of Unleavened Bread began on the 15th day of the month...

    “In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” (Leviticus 23:5,6)

    So we learn from this Old Testament Scripture that the day of Passover fell on the 14th day of the first month, and then the “FEAST of UNLEAVENED BREAD” began upon the 15th day of the first month.

    The days of unleavened bread came AFTER Passover! Acts 12:3 tells us that Peter was apprehended DURING the “days of unleavened bread.” This means that the day of Passover had ALREADY occurred. “Easter” could not have been Passover, because Passover occurs BEFORE the days of unleavened bread. Passover had come and gone. Herod decided to bring Peter forth AFTER Easter.

    This is the proper time sequence:

    1. PASSOVER

    2. DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD

    3. EASTER

    So there you have it... the Day Of Passover always kicks off the seven Days Of Unleavened Bread, happening the day before the feast begins. So if Herod arrested James during the Feast Of Unleavened Bread, the Passover was already over. Easter is correct. Of course, Easter is a pagan holiday and the Bible doesn't deny that. The Bible is simply teaching that James was taken by Herod during the days of unleavened bread, and Herod was planning to kill Peter after Easter. "
     
  5. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    If you notice it is the Bible that is stepping all over your corrupted KJ Bible which is full of errors and that is a false spirit. I got the following from the KJ Bible and it calls you a heretic. Notice I do not use my opinion but God's Word to show you who has a false spirit. Notice this interpretation comes from Strong's as well as your corrupt KJV

    2 Peter 2:1

    A. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


    I.Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): destroying, utter destruction

    A. of vessels

    II.a perishing, ruin, destruction

    . of money

    A. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
     
  6. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ha! Ha! Do you realize that where you get much of your false doctrine from is from the heretic Origen (who castrated himself according to Matthew 19:12) and the Gnostics whom he opposed, yet had very similar views with on a number of things issues both of which are considered to be the first heretics of the church? And you consider me a heretic? LOL.
     
  7. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I'm a false prophet, then I should go to hell (I'm not a prophet, but if you say so) for teaching people false doctrine and trying to deceive them (fortunately for me, God will be my judge and not you). I trust Him to make the right decision. How do you feel about it? What if what you've been preaching is false?
     
  8. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Is this suppose to mean something?
     
  9. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'll let you figure it out. You're supposed to be so spiritual, right? I'll let one of your false spirits explain it to you.
     
  10. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    You are hypocrite too. You quote KJ Bible and Strong's concordance when it suits your needs but ignore it and spin it when it does not suit your needs.

    No I did not say so the king James bible called you a false prophet and false teacher i just quoted the KJ Bible to worship. God is judging you with his Word not my opinion and yes thank God his judgment is just not like yours. I have not been preaching anything false. I cannot find a verse like this that is calling what I believe makes me false prophet and false teacher. Its your turn to stop using your opinion and use the KJ Bible to show me where I am a false prophet and false teacher just like I used the KJ Bible to prove you are a false prophet and false teacher.
     
  11. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What are you talking about? I always quote King Jame and the appropriate Strong's when there's a verse in question. You're the one who quotes numerous different Bibles in trying to promote your dogma, even though most believers can see right through that falsehood. You even quote King James at times when you think it's to your convenience (on one side of your mouth and the other side condemning it).
     
  12. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with KJ when its correct but it has too many errors for me to trust it as if it is the Spirit of truth like you believe.

    Here it is again in the KJ with Strong's

    2 Peter 2:1

    A. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    I.Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): destroying, utter destruction

    A. of vessels

    II.a perishing, ruin, destruction

    . of money

    A. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

    Does it really matter that most believers can see right through my assumed falsehood? I rather have scripture and God's Word be my standard not most believers.
     
  13. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's where the spirit should come in, regardless but who determines when it's right and when it isn't, you?
    Here it is again in the KJ with Strong's

    2 Peter 2:1

    A. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    I.Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): destroying, utter destruction

    A. of vessels

    II.a perishing, ruin, destruction

    . of money

    A. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.[/quote]
    I don't see where this applies to me. You assume what I say is false? Well, I say that much of what you say is false. I only share what's in the King James, which I believe is the most reliable of all the Bibles and you sure haven't proven otherwise to me especially when you quote so many other corrupted Bibles (many of whom contradict each other) and seem to be follower of a false teacher and a strict follower of Origen in addition to someone who adheres to the teaching of the heretical Gnostics (who I call the "know it alls" of scripture).

    [QUOTE="Soar Like and Eagle,Does it really matter that most believers can see right through my assumed falsehood? I rather have scripture and God's Word be my standard not most believers.[/QUOTE]
    You have a problem here soar like and eagle which you either fail to see or just ignore: you're claiming to have God's word (your version) and yet you won't accept that of those who use different Bibles than you do. How is it that your version is right and everyone else's wrong. And BTW, what version do you use or is everything by "the Spirit" and if so, how do you know what spirit you're hearing from? The know the Bible tells us we are to "prove all things" that they be of God and that there are many "false spirits" in the world today. How do you manage that, with all the numerous Bibles which say different things in existence?
     
  14. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I don't see where this applies to me. You assume what I say is false? Well, I say that much of what you say is false. I only share what's in the King James, which I believe is the most reliable of all the Bibles and you sure haven't proven otherwise to me especially when you quote so many other corrupted Bibles (many of whom contradict each other) and seem to be follower of a false teacher and a strict follower of Origen in addition to someone who adheres to the teaching of the heretical Gnostics (who I call the "know it alls" of scripture).

    [QUOTE="Soar Like and Eagle,Does it really matter that most believers can see right through my assumed falsehood? I rather have scripture and God's Word be my standard not most believers.[/QUOTE]
    You have a problem here soar like and eagle which you either fail to see or just ignore: you're claiming to have God's word (your version) and yet you won't accept that of those who use different Bibles than you do. How is it that your version is right and everyone else's wrong. And BTW, what version do you use or is everything by "the Spirit" and if so, how do you know what spirit you're hearing from? The know the Bible tells us we are to "prove all things" that they be of God and that there are many "false spirits" in the world today. How do you manage that, with all the numerous Bibles which say different things in existence?[/QUOTE]
    It applies to those who believe and teach the false doctrine eternal hell. Do you know how to read scripture? Its not version it your version.

    Because I understand how God's spirit hides His spiritual Word and I do not let the Bible become the letter that killeth. All you know is the Bible KJ only and know nothing about how God reveals His spiritual Word. You reject even the most simplest examples like a goat being a believer. There is so much more and all you know it the letter that killeth.
     
  15. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You judge me when you say that all I know is the king James Bible, but the truth is I believe (based on your lack of substance) that I most likely know more than you (both spiritually and biblically). I don't think I anything about your "goat" example but what I do know is that "goats" won't get into the kingdom of heaven. You base practically all your knowledge on your spiritual understanding (which why you mis apply scriptures all the time).

    You post whatever comes to your mind and you think you're being led by the spirit. I say wrong spirit. And you complain about the letter (which is really Old Testament, not New) and yet you use it. Again, talking out of both sides of your mouth. As for me, I'm pretty straightforward, I go by the Word and I use the Holy Spirit (who'll never contradict God) to validate the interpretation.

    If you look at the word "word" there's word with a small "s" (throughout the Old Testament) and parts of the New Testament and there's also "Word" with a capital "W". There's a difference. You know what that is? Word with the capital W appears 5 times in the New Testament and it's meaning is Logos. It occurs in the following verses:
    John 1:1,
    John 1:14
    1 John 1:1
    1 John 5:7 and
    Rev 19:13

    The Strong's is
    G3056 λόγος logos log'-os
    From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ):—account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

    You should be able to understand the significance to this since you're so spiritually astute.
     
  16. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    See you claim a goat will never go to heaven than according to the Bible and the Law of Moses a goat is a CLEAN ANIMAL. Yet you use it to damn people with and this is not what Jesus met when he was speaking here. He knew a goat was clean from the time he was a boy because he was a Jew. You do not understand that the Spirit of the Word in Matthew 25 is hidden this fact from you? A goat cannot be the loss if it is clean UNDER THE LOW OF MOSES. That is basic spiritual interpretation and God's spiritual Word is hidden from the carnal believer like you are presenting yourself as.

    The Bible needs the Holy Spirit to be the Logos or all you get is confusion and 10,000 different Christian denominations. The Word of God is the corn (word) the wine (revelation of the spirit) and the oil (anointing)
     
  17. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    2 Corinthians 3:6
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


    So many of God’s people cannot see what is beyond the letter that killeth; such a strong word “killeth” given to describe what happens when you use you carnalize, literalize your understanding when interpreting scripture. So much doom and gloom in Traditional Christianity; verse that support the doctrine of eternal torment.


    This is what has happened with these two subjects verses on the baby goat and the spirits in prison. There are two Word of God at work here: one that relies on tradition, man’s logic and scholarly approach. The other Word of God that is led by the Spirit of God that is quicken not by the dead letter that killeth but by what the Spirit of God has quicken.


    Are we destroying, slaying, and killing God’s Word when we refuse to allow God’s Spirit to give it life. Is not the spirit of truth with in us; but is that what we are following when all we see is the negative. God’s Spirit is in all of us, we have gone way to accustom to hearing man; and not The Spirit of truth with in.


    Killeth: NT:615 apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:


    2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

    3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

    6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

    9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.

    Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:

    "Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

    "1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

    "...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

    "...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."

    [De Principis Book 2]

    CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

    If you say [a] "it looks like it will rain today, maybe it will rain" & then say "it won't rain today", then [c] you are contradicting yourself. Both statements cannot be true.

    As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".

    "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".

    The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".

    What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never". So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".

    What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not.

    As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:

    TLG - Home

    I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language.

    It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" & always means "eternal" except when used in hyperbole.

    Clearly your arguments don't have even half a leg to stand on.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell


    -----------------------


    How is that?

    Whatever "it" refers to doesn't change the fact of Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", which was supported also by:

    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from ...
    By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (pages 10- 11)

    Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

    Further re Origen & aionios:

    "That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9).

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)
    CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)

    Furthermore re Origen & aionios, Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:

    "Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

    "1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

    "...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

    "...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."

    [De Principis Book 2]

    CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

    Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin
    Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin

    And yet more re Origen & aion/ios:

    "Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161). And Comm. in Rom. 6.5: “In Scriptures, aión is sometimes found in the sense of something that knows no end; at times it designates something that has no end in the present world, but will have in the future one; sometimes it means a certain stretch of time; or again the duration of the life of a single person is called aión” (quoted in Ramelli, p. 163).

    Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

    He did. You saw the English translation saying so. And the Greek as well. Sorry to disappoint you, but the vast majority of people are not going to be kept alive only to be tortured forever by Love Omnipotent.

    Did you pay for the service?

    John's commentary of the portion i quoted was available. AFAIK the site has many Greek works, but no Latin. Much of what Origen wrote is in Latin.
     
  19. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So what? The significance of the goat being "clean" was that it was "legal" for the Jews of the Old Testament to eat it (clean animals were for food, unclean was not to be eaten). The word "goat" is used to represent people by Jesus (true believers were referred to by Jesus as "sheep") because of their stubborn nature (most everyone knows that goats are stubborn creature, indicative of pride (which God hates) in human beings) and thus would be allowed into heaven. Why do they need to be "separated" if they all are going in?
    There you go again, accusing others of doing the exact same thing that you are doing. Did you not
    damn" me (use Peter 2:11) in your previous post. That is just unsubstantiated non-biblical interpretation. Jesus gives us the correct interpretation His "parable of the sheep and the goats" and gives us a full explanation:

    Matthew 25:33-45(KJV) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    They didn't understand what He meant and didn't realize that they had did these things but Jesus answered:
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Who are these on the left? They are the ones who are described as"goats"
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    The goats did the exact opposite of the sheep, they did nothing to help their fellow man (believers) who were in need.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Now the goats are concerned and ask if they had ministered to Him, but what Jesus is concerned with, did they help their fellow man? And the answer is no.
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    God expects us as believers to help other believers and not just sing praises to Him.
    The Bible is also the bread of life and the Bible is the Water of the word which cleanses us. Jesus, the Word (Logos) made flesh is the bread of life (6:35, 6:48-51).
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    And you continue to repeatedly misquote Origen trying fanatically to make what he said support UR. This is the mortal self inflicted wound which destroys UR.
    .....If you still don't know what "it" is, then you should quit talking about it. I have shown you several times what Origen is saying but you insist on quoting only three words "after eternal life" like some kind of mantra.
    .....Origen did NOT say, hint or imply "all will leap into the father." Once again here is your Origen "proof text" in-context.

    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain vs. 18] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    The only leaping here is the fountain After the fountain leaps into eternal life PERHAPS it, i.e. the fountain, will also leap into the father who is beyond eternal life." God created life including eternal life so as creator He alone is beyond eternal life.
    .....Does Origen believe that eternal life ends at some time? Here is what he wrote about eternal life in the same writing which is being continually misquoted, above.

    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John


     
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