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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Is a lamb of God a baby goat that eats grass? Or how about God's fire is it physical fire or something very spiritual like cloven tongues of fire on the first day of Pentecost.
    So what? The example in Matthew 25 is a goat are also clean as a sheep and both acceptable unto God. Jesus was speaking of goat believers not the law of Moses as a legal law. he was using them as a sample as say it. because of their stubborn nature (most everyone knows that goats are stubborn creature, indicative of pride (which God hates) this is true but they are clean. A pig would be an UNclean animal that would be the loss. If Jesus was going to separate the sheep his true believers from the loss it would of been a PIG. Ask any Jew. This is spiritual language you do not have eyes to see.
     
  2. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    The whole Bible is full of spiritual examples for spiritual believers but most of God's people are carnal not spiritual

    John 4:7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

    8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

    9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

    10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

    12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

    13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

    14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

    16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

    17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

    18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

    19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

    20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

    21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

    22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

    26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

    27And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

    28The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

    29Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

    30Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks once again for showing Origen spoke of:

    1. after aionios [mistranslated eternal] life &

    2. beyond aionios life

    For more references to aionios in Origen being finite see:

    What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

    For other finite instances of aionios in general see:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    As to the misleading deceptive translation of "eternal":

    Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    -----------------------------------------------


    According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

    “I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
    one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

    1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    "The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Highly disingenuous. You continue to quote these five words out-of-context trying desperately to make them support UR. The only thing "after eternal life" is the Father. The only thing "beyond eternal life" is the Father.
    Origen did say Eternal life “never perishes,””remains.””is not taken away,””[is not] consumed,””[does not] perish.”
     
  5. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus equates human believers as sheep and humans who are not obedient to Him goats. Not any more complicated than that. This is a "parable". And yes "cloven tongues of fire" is a spiritual phenomena, but it physically happened during Pentecost although I have no idea what it looked to the people who witnessed it.

    First of all, Jesus here is not speaking of Jews per SE (no Christian church at the time). This is not Jewish doctrine that He's teaching. He's speaking of (Jews who were followers of His) in both case (the saved and the lost). As for the goats, they were those who claimed to be following Him but were not heeding His words (particularly when it came to how they were treating other believers). You're assuming that just because someone claims to be a "Christian" that they're going to be let into heaven but Jesus says that isn't necessarily the case. What about those Jesus said to on "that day" they will say, "lord, lord", I did so many wonderful works for you, and He will respond to them, "I never knew you" (which to me is one of the hardest verses to comprehend in the Bible but which I accept for what it is? The only thing I can figure is this sheep and goat parable. It's obvious that those "goats" were doing something (or not doing something) that Jesus expected from His followers.

    We're way beyond the Purity laws of the Old Testament. Anything is fair game for food in the NT, just ask Peter. We have a much better Testament and are no longer under the Mosaic Law as the Jews were in Moses day (and during the days of Jesus ministry). We're under the Law of Grace now which I'm very happy about.
     
  6. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, I get all this, but how can you say this (you keep saying this over and over again)? How can you say/know who's carnal and who's not? And more so, how many? I would say God would be the only know that. Are you making yourself God here? I'll grant that some believers are carnal, but how man or what percentage? To me this is unknowable and it will be God who'll make that determination and God alone.
     
  7. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Because God's Word is spiritual and all you see is the literal Word. A goat is as much as a symbolism in scripture as a sheep but you only see the sheep as clean but both animals are CLEAN. Jesus knew this and said this for a purpose. The whole Bible is full of this spiritual language yet all you see are the words, what is written the physical, the outer hull or chaff not the hidden grain of wheat that makes the bread which is the Spiritual Word of God. You are right God is the only one that knows that and that is why God gave us the Spirit of truth to LEAD AND GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH. No I am not making my self God here I am allowing God's Spiritual Word to show me His hidden manna or food from God that is hidden. Yesterdays manna stinks and that is the same as the bible with out the spirit when all you see is what someone showed you not the Spirit of truth revealing that hidden manna. Just like the new wine( revelation) bitter than the old wine and your old wine skin is bursting because you cannot handle the lees.


    LEES and the Dregs

    I really believe God’s Word is divine and deep things of God also the very hidden from the natural carnal understanding. According to Webster the words lees and dregs are defined as follows: lees Pronunciation: 'lEz, Function: noun plural Etymology: Middle English lie, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin lia: the sediment of a liquor (as wine) during fermentation and aging. These two words are mentioned six times in scripture.

    Zephaniah 1:12
    And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Jeremiah 48:11, Isaiah 25:6

    Isaiah 51:17
    Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

    Wine is very important symbolically, wine was at the wedding feast when Jesus changed the water into wine. He said the new wine is better then the old. The new wine does not fit in old wine skins and the list goes on.

    My point is this; so often believers are so full of Lees and dregs or complacencies; or preconceived ideas they are hearing God’s Word; but miss the revelation. Today we are bombarded with information; be it religious, political etc. I am not a wine maker and know very little on this subject. But God’s Word is deep and there are so many awesome morsels of truth; but no we have our ideas of God or lees and dregs and there is no room for His revelation; His new wine.
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I gave you the entire context before you had - ever - seen it once in your life. That was an English translation of Origen's commentary on John. I also gave you the Greek text before you had - ever - in your entire life, seen it.

    Thank you for yet another unsupported opinion.
    After eternal life? That's an oxymoron. So IYO only the Father is beyond and "after eternal life", not the Son or the Holy Spirit?

    That English mistranslation is useless without the original Greek text.
     
  9. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    As a young believer there is no lees because you have this new spirit that s amazing and you are hungry for the truth than religion gets their nasty Babylonian fingers on your life and you hear it there way not the spirit. The Bible declares the Spirit of truth is the only source of truth; but the vast majority of Christians follow religion, orthodoxy, creeds, dogmas. They lost their first love. Our first love is God's Spirit with in us not religion.


    Revelation 2:4
    Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


    The Quran and the Book of Mormon do not have this spiritual language because the Spiritual Word of God is divine and their religious books are not divine.
     
  10. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How can you profess to know what I see? Playing the role of God again? Well you play it all you want and see where it gets you.

    settled - H7087
    קָפָא
    qâphâʼ
    kaw-faw'

    A primitive root; to shrink, that is, thicken (as unracked wine, curdled milk, clouded sky, frozen water):—congeal, curdle, dark`, settle.[/quote]
    lees - H8105 שֶׁמֶר shemer sheh'-mer
    From H8104; something preserved, that is, the settlings (plural only) of wine:—dregs, (wines on the) lees.

    Isaiah 51:17
    Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

    When I first looked at this, my first thought too was complacency, but after looking in more depth, I think what's more significant in Zephaniah if taken in context is that God is about to deliver judgment, not just on the Jews (who were in serious violation of God's laws) but a number of others who are mentioned from the beginning of this chapter. let's list them (v. 1-6):
    1) Men and beasts (including the fowls, the fish)
    2) the wicked
    3) Judah/Jerusalem
    4) remnant of Baal (false God worshiped by Jezebel)
    5) Those who worshiped other false gods with statues fixed upon their housetops
    6) Those who worship Malcham (aka Milcom, Malkam god of the Ammonites)
    7) Those who turned their backs on God (which I believe were believing Jews at one time) as well as those who haven't sought after Him (I also believe all mankind has the responsibility to search for God and if they don't, they'll likely be judged as we see they were here).

    Zephaniah 1:3-6(KJV) I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
    4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
    5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
    6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him.
    He then follows this with:
    Zephaniah 1:8-13(KJV) And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD’S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
    9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters’ houses with violence and deceit.
    10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
    11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
    12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
    13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
    Maktesh - a geological landform considered unique to the Negev desert of Israel and the Sinai peninsula of Egypt.

    This is a "shadow" of the Great Day of the Lord which is still to come, that is a future event.
    Zephaniah 1:14-18(KJV)
    The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
    16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
    17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
    18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
    This speaks of the great judgment that God's going to put on mankind someday for man's wickedness.

    I believe that the Bible says what it means and mean what it says (no need to go overboard with spiritualizing everything 100% of the time).
     
  11. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    lees - H8105 שֶׁמֶר shemer sheh'-mer
    From H8104; something preserved, that is, the settlings (plural only) of wine:—dregs, (wines on the) lees.

    Isaiah 51:17
    Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.




    When I first looked at this, my first thought too was complacency, but after looking in more depth, I think what's more significant in Zephaniah if taken in context is that God is about to deliver judgment, not just on the Jews (who were in serious violation of God's laws) but a number of others who are mentioned from the beginning of this chapter. let's list them (v. 1-6):
    1) Men and beasts (including the fowls, the fish)
    2) the wicked
    3) Judah/Jerusalem
    4) remnant of Baal (false God worshiped by Jezebel)
    5) Those who worshiped other false gods with statues fixed upon their housetops
    6) Those who worship Malcham (aka Milcom, Malkam god of the Ammonites)
    7) Those who turned their backs on God (which I believe were believing Jews at one time) as well as those who haven't sought after Him (I also believe all mankind has the responsibility to search for God and if they don't, they'll likely be judged as we see they were here).

    Zephaniah 1:3-6(KJV) I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
    4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
    5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
    6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him.
    He then follows this with:
    Zephaniah 1:8-13(KJV) And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD’S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
    9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters’ houses with violence and deceit.
    10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
    11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
    12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
    13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
    Maktesh - a geological landform considered unique to the Negev desert of Israel and the Sinai peninsula of Egypt.

    This is a "shadow" of the Great Day of the Lord which is still to come, that is a future event.
    Zephaniah 1:14-18(KJV)
    The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
    16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
    17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
    18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
    This speaks of the great judgment that God's going to put on mankind someday for man's wickedness.

    I believe that the Bible says what it means and mean what it says (no need to go overboard with spiritualizing everything 100% of the time).[/QUOTE]
    I have no more to say to you.
     
  12. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not so.

    One of my favorite verses: 2 Timothy 2:15:
    2 Timothy 2:14-21(KJV) Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
    15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
    19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
    The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and He instructs, guides and leads us into all truth, but it is the Word of God that is the source.
    Notice the next two verses, both in Hebrews and in particular the Greek word merismos (the only two places it is found in all of scripture) which is actually translated gift in the King James It's one of the gifts Christ gave to men when He ascended:

    Hebrews 2:4(KJV) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
    gifts- G3311 μερισμός merismos mer-is-mos'
    From G3307; a separation or distribution:—dividing asunder, gift.
    Hebrews 4:12(KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    piercing - G1338 διϊκνέομαι diikneomai dee-ik-neh'-om-ahee
    From G1223 and the base of G2425; to reach through, that is, penetrate:—pierce.
    dividing - G3311 μερισμός merismos mer-is-mos'
    From G3307; a separation or distribution:—dividing asunder, gift.
    discerner - G2924 κριτικός kritikos krit-ee-kos'
    From G2923; decisive (“critical”), that is, discriminative:—discerner.
    Brother, you make a huge mistake to try and discount the word of God and replace it with what you think is the Holy Spirit. Whatever it is that you hear must line up with the Word of God and cannot contradict God.

    I agree with the above wholeheartedly.[/QUOTE]
     
  13. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no more to say to you.[/QUOTE]
    That's fine with me. Hopefully you'll stop spreading your false doctrine and trying to shipwreck others.
     
  14. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
     
  15. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What's your excuse? All you can do when you can't answer something or prove your point through Scripture (I don't count scriptures that don't apply to what's being discussed) you call people carnal, tell them they're religious and don't have the spiritual insight. What a copout.
     
  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What is your point? Do you think you having posted a link to a source relieves you of the responsibility of quoting it in context instead of 2-3 words out-of-context for the purpose of making it appear to say something the writer did not intend.
    Wrong yet again. Do not twist my words trying to make it appear I said something I did not say. You are, or should be, aware that what I said was in the context of discussing what Origen wrote in his commentary on John and what he said. Not my opinion on anything. Here is the comment I was responding to
    And my response.

    Highly disingenuous. You continue to quote these five words out-of-context trying desperately to make them support UR. The only thing "after eternal life" is the Father. The only thing "beyond eternal life" is the Father.
    Origen did say Eternal life “never perishes,””remains.””is not taken away,””[is not] consumed,””[does not] perish.”
    You can see the quotation marks I placed around "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life, can't you? Now do you still want to accuse me of unsupported opinion?
    You are so accustomed to making that accusation that you opened your mouth, so to speak, and stuck your foot squarely in it. If what I quoted is an English mistranslation then you better toss out everything you quoted about Origen because you initially posted the quote and the link. This is really laughable you keep posting the quote "after eternal life," over and over and over, but when the same source proves you wrong suddenly it becomes an English mistranslation. Clearly showing again how corrupt and bankrupt UR is.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The link already provided the context. Therefore i don't need to waste my time repeating it again or typing it out by hand. Your amateur opinions [vs scholar Ramelli] have never proven it means anything except what it appears to say.



    Here's your unsupported opinion:

    Where does Origen say "only thing"? If that were so, why does Origen speak of something else leaping into the "Father who is beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life."

    And, again, "after eternal life" is an oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    Also "aionios (mistranslated eternal) life" can't be endless in the past here:

    Eternal life (1 Jn.1:2) is aionion life. Aionion is the Greek word that KJV translated "eternal" there.

    Scripture teaches the aionion times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9) & the aions (eons, ages) had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). Therefore aionion life must have had a beginning. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. And contradicts your (and my) belief that Christ is God & always was God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    We see here that the "times eonian"(aionion) had a beginning:

    in expectation of life eonian[aioniou], which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian[aionion], (Titus 1:2, CLV)

    before eternal times (Titus 1:2, Greek-English Interlinear, ACVI):
    Online Parallel Study Bibles

    Obviously there cannot be a "before eternal" past time. That would be nonsense. Therefore these "eternal"[aionion/eonian] times must have had a beginning.

    Likewise with 2 Tim.1:9,

    G4253προG5550χρόνωνG166αιωνίων
    .....BEFORE.........TIMES.......AIONION(EONIAN)

    "before times of the ages[aionion]":

    2 Timothy 1:9 Interlinear: who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian, (2 Tim.1:9, CLV)

    Similarly 1 Cor.2:7 speaks of "before the eons"[aionon], i.e. "before the ages" (NASB).
    And Jude 1:25 says "before all the eons"[aionos], i.e. "before all ages" (NIV).

    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.





    Except that i provided the Greek text with the quote of "after eternal life". You didn't do the same with your quote from the same section. Here's another example of a quote i've provided the Greek text for:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    Which shows aionios is of finite duration. Refuting your arguments.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf




     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  18. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    You talk about being perfect; not me; I am flesh, and carnal and I praise God for my carnality; my sin and even my shame. Perfection will come; but God is using our sin, our shortcoming, our spiritual immaturity to bring about that spiritual maturity; not religious maturity; God is more interested in the process.


    The Children of Israel could of taken 9 days to cross the wilderness. BUT No God led them for forty years. Now we are walking in this wilderness of life for the same reason:


    Deut 8:1-2

    All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

    2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments. (KJV)


    When Jesus was baptized in the RIVER Jordon; He received a dove (He is perfect) ; BUT on the day Pentecostal had fully come what did believers get, the Holy Spirit with cloven tongues of fire; we are not perfect. So often Christian’s condemn the world for its flesh and sin; ignoring the log in our own eye. Sin was put here by God to change us; and He is changing us now and will change us by the purging power of His divine fire.

    Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    "God is spirit - that is His substance. God is love that is His nature. God is also light and fire - they are His manifestations. We speak of fiery trials, HE IS IN EVERY ONE OF THEM. May we go even farther? He is the source of the fire in our fiery trial, HE' is the fire thereof.

    You say that God's hand is resting upon you - you say that He has filled with His Spirit and His anointing is upon your life, guiding you into all truth. Then don't be amazed at the fiery testing that is yours also, for with every advancing step into new truth, there needs to be a purging out of error and past traditions, sin and shame; which are contrary to pure truth. The fire to burn out the dross is the Holy Spirit God has placed within, GOD is fire.

    "Kenneth Wuest, in his translation, calls the fiery trial 'the smelting process.' A fiery ordeal, a smelting process - why? because it will both purify us, as well as reveal what degree of quality has been attained within. We become so involved with the exterior happenings of the trial, how our flesh hurts, etc., that we forget the actual purpose is for the INNER PROCESSING, until we are of a PURE SPIRIT before Him. When suddenly we become aware of 'what spirit we are of' in some of these happenings, it sends us back to our knees in repentance and beseeching God to purge out these unholy traits. HE already knows what is in us, but the fires certainly expose us to ourselves. Sometimes we bow low in praise because we see what He has wrought, and are amazed at our own reaction to a situation - of the calm, the peace, the rest we have in it all. Then we also have those other times when the agitation of our spirit reveals that there are vast areas within that still need to be dealt with, purified and cleansed, until 'ALL that is within me (can) bless His holy name' (Ps. 103:1). Yet in all of this working, praise God, we find in Him NO CONDEMNATION - just that continual drawing upward and onward, being assured that HE who hath begun in us this good work, will also bring it to a successful conclusion in His own time" - end quote.
     
  19. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 3:13-15 13But the day will come when everyone's work can be seen. Their work will be tested by fire and the fire will show what kind of work each one did.

    14If the work a man did is not burned up in the fire, he will be paid for his work.

    15But if a man's work is burned up, he will lose everything. He himself will be saved, like a man pulled out of the fire.


    Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
     
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong as usual. You quoted high priestess Ramelli as saying "life after eternal life." Origen did NOT say "life after eternal life."
    Trying to muddy the water playing sophomoric word games. You know very well I was talking about what Origen said which I quoted a number of times. So to counter this school yard taunt "Origen did not say there was anything after 'eternal life' except the Father."

    Wrong yet again. When read in context, a principle which you do not seem to know, Origen said after the fountain leaps into eternal life PERHAPS it also leaps into the father." An inanimate fountain has no life therefore cannot have eternal life this is the only reasonable understanding. But URs and high priestess Ramelli must ignore the context to make Origen appear to support UR.
    Wrong! John very likely had the statement of Jesus in Jn 14:6 in mind when he wrote 1 Jn 1:2

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    Jesus also said He was a door, bread and light. Was Jesus literally any of these things or is that a figure of speech?
    All out of context proof texts omitted.

    If you think Origen Commentary on John bk. 13, the source you posted and linked to, is in error then throw out everything you have quoted from it. I do not plan to spend $$ on a subscription to TLG for this one point. You quoted and linked to the source and you have a TLG subscription so quote Origen Comm. John 13 para. 60 Greek and English, and try to prove me wrong. But I think I can safely say that Origen used the same words for "eternal life" in paras. 2, 14, 16, 18, 19, 20, 35, 36, 37, 40, 41 et alii that he used in para. 60.



     
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