How do Creationists explain vestigal organs?

[Tiberius]

#2

So I am talking about evolution and you have no idea what I am talking about, so you make a big blustery noise to cover it up?

 

[SkyWriting]

So I am talking about evolution and you have no idea what I am talking about, so you make a big blustery noise to cover it up?

If you think so. What difference would my response make?

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm mot hurt by it. Just frustrated (or amused, depending on my mood).

I'm amused as well.

 

[Tiberius]

If you think so. What difference would my response make?

Since you are making it, I assume that YOU think it makes a difference. And what difference would it be?

 

[SkyWriting]

Completely false. Your statement only demonstrates that you don't understand how the evidence points to evolution.Humans don't have vestigial feathers, vestigial wings, or vestigial horns. Instead, the vestigial features we have are consistent with a primate heritage. They are evolutionary leftovers.

If we are ignorant about how something is helpful today, then we certainly can't link it to a past use or blame it on primates or lizards. But lets go through the best known features, noting that they have nothing to do with primate heritage.

#10) The Appendix
Scientists discover true function of appendix organ - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

9) Sinuses
One use is that sinuses help humidify the air we breathe in; another is that they enhance our voices.
(It may be a coincidence, but I've not had a cold or flue since I had my nose reamed out so I could breath through it.)

8) Wisdom Teeth
Some populations are highly effected. Choosing a Tasmanian spouse will help because they have zero problems.

7) Coccyx
Provides balance when sitting and supports vital muscle structure.

6) The Ear
Pretty handy. Some wiggle.

5) Arrector Pili
Perhaps Adam did not show much pink skin.

4) Tonsils
"Today, tonsils and adenoids are seen as perhaps the first line of defense against disease-causing germs that enter the body through the nose, mouth, or throat."

3) Male Nipples
Fetus development leftovers.

2) The Palmar Grasp Reflex
Seems harmless. Babies cry too.

1) Plica Semilunaris
Secretes a sticky fluid to clean debris from the eye.
"The discovery of dense infiltration with both specific and non-specific immune cells, abundant vascularization and secretory structures (goblet cells and surface enlargement) in the semilunar plica suggest that it plays an important role as a specialized organ in human eye protection."

So that covers the current list, slimmed down from 89 published suspects years ago.
Not one concrete example. And many refuted ones still hanging around.
Including the nipple one that is included just so they would have 10!

 

[Tiberius]

If we are ignorant about how something is helpful today, then we certainly can't link it to a past use or blame it on primates or lizards. But lets go through the best known features, noting that they have nothing to do with primate heritage.

Yes, let's. But first, please show that they don't have anything to do with primate heritage.

#10) The Appendix
Scientists discover true function of appendix organ - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Thanks for the source. See how they say that the whole thing is a bit of fun? "So it's sort of a fun thing that we've found, but we don't want it to cause any harm, we don't want people to say, "oh, my appendix has a function", so I'm not going to go to the doctor, I'm going to try to hang onto it." So while the appendix does do something, it does do a very important thing, and it's very rare that it would be put into that use. So, yeah, it's not really that important.

9) Sinuses
One use is that sinuses help humidify the air we breathe in; another is that they enhance our voices.
(It may be a coincidence, but I've not had a cold or flue since I had my nose reamed out so I could breath through it.)

Enhance our voices? Well, that's a subjective issue isn't it? What specific enhancements?

8) Wisdom Teeth
Some populations are highly effected. Choosing a Tasmanian spouse will help because they have zero problems.

And this doesn't actually make any argument for you. And what's this about Tasmanian spouses? Define Tasmanian? How long does one have to live in Tasmania to avoid wisdom teeth problems? Or is this a case where the Tasmanian Aboriginals do not suffer from wisdom teeth problems? That wouldn't surprise me, as all Aboriginal Tasmanians are dead!

7) Coccyx
Provides balance when sitting and supports vital muscle structure.

Source please?

6) The Ear
Pretty handy. Some wiggle.

Wait, who's claiming that ears are vestigial?

5) Arrector Pili
Perhaps Adam did not show much pink skin.

The muscles that make our hair stand on end? And this is the best support you can show for a current use?

4) Tonsils
"Today, tonsils and adenoids are seen as perhaps the first line of defense against disease-causing germs that enter the body through the nose, mouth, or throat."

Again, people have these removed all the time. Do we see any increase in infections among people who have had their tonsils removed?

3) Male Nipples
Fetus development leftovers.

Which is highly supportive of evolution, and our mammalian heritage.

2) The Palmar Grasp Reflex
Seems harmless. Babies cry too.

Again, supportive of evolution, where infants would cling tight to their mother's fur as they were carried around. And also suggestive of primate heritage as well, since we see primates doing this today.

1) Plica Semilunaris
Secretes a sticky fluid to clean debris from the eye.
"The discovery of dense infiltration with both specific and non-specific immune cells, abundant vascularization and secretory structures (goblet cells and surface enlargement) in the semilunar plica suggest that it plays an important role as a specialized organ in human eye protection."

Actually, this is indeed vestigial, as vestigial means "having lost most or all of its original function through evolution."

So we see animals who use it as a third eyelid. Since we Humans no longer use it for that, it is vestigial.

So that covers the current list, slimmed down from 89 published suspects years ago.

Care to produce this list?

Not one concrete example. And many refuted ones still hanging around.
Including the nipple one that is included just so they would have 10!

Only if you define "vestigial" as meaning "Not having any purpose at all." And if you actually understood evolution, you'd know that anything which has no use tends to disappear. Such as pigment in the skin for cave-dwelling animals.

So the vestigial organs we have are best explained by evolution and our primate heritage.

 

[USincognito]

And this doesn't actually make any argument for you. And what's this about Tasmanian spouses? Define Tasmanian? How long does one have to live in Tasmania to avoid wisdom teeth problems? Or is this a case where the Tasmanian Aboriginals do not suffer from wisdom teeth problems? That wouldn't surprise me, as all Aboriginal Tasmanians are dead!

Forget all that. Ask for a source of this rediculous claim. Even if true, it wouldn't change the fact that nearly every ethnicity on earth has trouble with wisdom teeth because our jaws have shrunk while the number of teeth we have has remained the same.

Wait, who's claiming that ears are vestigial?

Ears are not vestigial, but Creationists don't understand that the fact that we can wiggle them is. It's the same with flaring nostrils and grasping toes, but Creationists don't understand vestigial function the way we do.

The muscles that make our hair stand on end? And this is the best support you can show for a current use?

According to Creationists they exist to let us know when we're watching a scary movie or when someone walks over our grave.

Source please?

I don't have the reference handy, but there are two muscles or tendons or something attached to the coccyx that in non-ape mammals only serves the purpose of moving the tail around. We still have them despite not having a tail. There's no reason given by Creationists as to why we have them.

 

[SkyWriting]

Thanks for the source. See how they say that the whole thing is a bit of fun? "So it's sort of a fun thing that we've found, but we don't want it to cause any harm, we don't want people to say, "oh, my appendix has a function", so I'm not going to go to the doctor, I'm going to try to hang onto it." So while the appendix does do something, it does do a very important thing, and it's very rare that it would be put into that use. So, yeah, it's not really that important.

OK, so your first definition is "not really that important". Wow, the list just became huge!

Enhance our voices? Well, that's a subjective issue isn't it? What specific enhancements?

Improved language? Said to what caused us to become human. Allowed for better socializing. Maybe the most important feature of our species.

Wait, who's claiming that ears are vestigial?

Just the wiggling. Stunning list huh? I guess they used to spin like weather radar before we had working necks.

The muscles that make our hair stand on end? And this is the best support you can show for a current use?

I only have to make a case for good design. I'm saying they may be natural to our species and useful to the species. Maybe not the pink population we see today. But earlier ones.

Again, people have these removed all the time. Do we see any increase in infections among people who have had their tonsils removed?

Among children, yes.

The tonsils are the immune system's first line of defense against bacteria and viruses that enter your mouth

Which is highly supportive of evolution, and our mammalian heritage.

I've never doubted we were considered to be mammals by the labcoats!

Again, supportive of evolution, where infants would cling tight to their mother's fur as they were carried around. And also suggestive of primate heritage as well, since we see primates doing this today.

The ol monkey see, monkey do logic.
Look at these sawfly larvae clinging to this branch!

Way more suggestive that children are insects.

Actually, this is indeed vestigial, as vestigial means. So we see animals who use it as a third eyelid. Since we Humans no longer use it for that, it is vestigial.

You need to assume it was a third eyelid first. Only some naturalists believe it was.

Only if you define "vestigial" as meaning "Not having any purpose at all." And if you actually understood evolution, you'd know that anything which has no use tends to disappear. Such as pigment in the skin for cave-dwelling animals.

Oh. I was thinking that we'd still have leaves and roots from when we separated from plant life.
That's what they teach us in Creation school.

So the vestigial organs we have are best explained by evolution and our primate heritage.

Not if there aren't any to work with. And most are gone and half these are going to be.

 

[Tiberius]

OK, so your first definition is "not really that important". Wow, the list just became huge!

lolwut?

Improved language? Said to what caused us to become human. Allowed for better socializing. Maybe the most important feature of our species.

Improved language? What, if we didn't have sinuses we'd still be saying things like, "Ug, me want eat. Me go get eat"?

And better socialising? What, do you think no one would want to be our friends if we all sounded like Fran Drescher?

Just the wiggling. Stunning list huh?

Ah yes, wiggling ears. Wonderful evidence for evolution, aren't they?

I only have to make a case for good design. I'm saying they may be natural to our species and useful to the species. Maybe not the pink population we see today. But earlier ones.

But for that to be true would require us to be the product of evolution.

Among children, yes.

The tonsils are the immune system's first line of defense against bacteria and viruses that enter your mouth

That would be so much better if it had been a link to a study showing that children who have had their tonsils removed suffer from infections at an increased rate compared to adults who have had theirs removed.

I've never doubted we were considered to be mammals by the labcoats!

So in what way are you claiming that male nipples are not vestigial?

The ol monkey see, monkey do logic.
Look at these sawfly larvae clinging to this branch!

Way more suggestive that children are insects.

Until you look at the genetic similarities.

You need to assume it was a third eyelid first. Not all naturalists believe it was.

I've had pet cats, and they had it. I've seen it for myself. In use, too.

Not if there aren't any to work with. And most are gone and half these are going to be.

yeah, changing of traits like this is called "evolution". Glad you've come to our side! Here, have some cookies!

 

[SkyWriting]

Forget all that. Ask for a source of this rediculous claim. Even if true, it wouldn't change the fact that nearly every ethnicity on earth has trouble with wisdom teeth because our jaws have shrunk while the number of teeth we have has remained the same.

Species do change ya know.

Ears are not vestigial, but Creationists don't understand that the fact that we can wiggle them is. It's the same with flaring nostrils and grasping toes, but Creationists don't understand vestigial function the way we do.

We do try to stick to reality. My lungs flair up real big when I take a breath and my nostrils flare with the effort at times. Things jiggle.

According to Creationists they exist to let us know when we're watching a scary movie or when someone walks over our grave.

Or breathing. That happens.

I don't have the reference handy, but there are two muscles or tendons or something attached to the coccyx that in non-ape mammals only serves the purpose of moving the tail around. We still have them despite not having a tail. There's no reason given by Creationists as to why we have them.

You just need to have an opener mind.

The Tailbone Miracle

 

[Tiberius]

You just need to have an opener mind.

The Tailbone Miracle

You know that website is arguing the existence of Allah, yes? And anyway, none of that comes from God, it is all explainable by evolution.

 

[SkyWriting]

You know that website is arguing the existence of Allah, yes? And anyway, none of that comes from God, it is all explainable by evolution.

You and that website are soul-mates.

 

[Loudmouth]

Vestigial organs - The list of 89 items is almost completely gone. It's day is doomed.

Since when do humans have a functional tail? They don't. Therefore, the coccyx is vestigial.

Since when do humans have a caecum that is used to digest cellulose? Oh, that's right. We don't. Therefore, the human vermiform appendix is vestigial.

Since when do whales walk on land on hind legs? Oh, that's right. THEY DON'T. Therefore, the whale pelvis is vestigial.

Need I go on?

Even more importantly, why do these vestigial features fall into line with the nested hierarchy predicted by the theory of evolution? Why do we never see vestigial flight feathers in zebras like we do in ostriches?

 

[freezerman2000]

.

 

[Tiberius]

You and that website are soul-mates.

What?

 

[SkyWriting]

Since when do humans have a functional tail? They don't. Therefore, the coccyx is vestigial.Since when do humans have a caecum that is used to digest cellulose? Oh, that's right. We don't. Therefore, the human vermiform appendix is vestigial.Since when do whales walk on land on hind legs? Oh, that's right. THEY DON'T. Therefore, the whale pelvis is vestigial.Need I go on?Even more importantly, why do these vestigial features fall into line with the nested hierarchy predicted by the theory of evolution? Why do we never see vestigial flight feathers in zebras like we do in ostriches?

We are specifically referring to (at least I am) vestigial features or organs that support the theory that the feature is a remnant from a previous species of animal. The appendix is simply less relevant due to a diet change in humans. Perhaps Adam had a huge appendix because he had no need to eat meat at all. And the coccyx works just fine the way it is. If not, ask a surgeon to remove yours and report back to us your improved sprint times. There are no reports of improved physical function from those who have had their coccyx removed (beyond normal function).






I'm thinking you'll have a hard time sitting up straight as well.

 

[Loudmouth]

The appendix is simply less relevant due to a diet change in humans.

How was it ever relevant to the digestion of cellulose like it is in other species?

Perhaps Adam had a huge appendix because he had no need to eat meat at all.

Perhaps? Methinks you are just making stuff up.

And the coccyx works just fine the way it is.

Vestigial does not mean functionless. You are not addressing what is being said.

There are no reports of improved physical function from those who have had their coccyx removed (beyond normal function).

Where are the reports of humans using their coccyx to support a tail?

 

[Jamin4422]

Since when do humans have a functional tail? They don't. Therefore, the coccyx is vestigial.

We can put that right next to mother goose in our nursery tales book.

Me thinks you are just making stuff up.

I was gonna say the same about you.

 

[Split Rock]

We are specifically referring to (at least I am) vestigial features or organs that support the theory that the feature is a remnant from a previous species of animal. The appendix is simply less relevant due to a diet change in humans. Perhaps Adam had a huge appendix because he had no need to eat meat at all. And the coccyx works just fine the way it is. If not, ask a surgeon to remove yours and report back to us your improved sprint times. There are no reports of improved physical function from those who have had their coccyx removed (beyond normal function).

The coccyx is a remnant of a tail. That is obvious by just looking at it. You say it functions fine. Does it function as a tail? It is also, strangely enough, present in other apes as well. Is this a coincidence? Why would removing a vestigial structure improve physical function?? If there was a selective pressure against the structure, it would be gone by now. Rather, it is small enough now that it does not interfer with our locomotion. That is sufficient.

 

[Loudmouth]

We can put that right next to mother goose in our nursery tales book.

Why? Do humans have tails that are supported by a coccyx? Yes or no?

I was gonna say the same about you.

So I am making up the fact that humans don't have tails?