How do Creationists explain vestigal organs?

[keith99]

Vestigial does not mean "without function". Vestigial organs can still have function just as a broken typewriter can be used to pound in nails. Vestigial organs are those who only have a secondary or rudimentary function compared to the same organ in other species. In this case, ligaments attaching to the human coccyx is a very rudimentary and secondary function. The primary function of the coccyx is to support a tail, something that it does not do in humans (or in other apes). In fact, we still have the muscle used to lift the tail, the extensor coccygis. It actaully spans a fused joint in the coccyx. What good is a muscle when it can not flex a joint?

God put it ther so that men wouldrealize they are related ot Apes and thus it would aid them in avoiding the sin of pride.

It turned out tthat the pride of some men is far too strong.

 

[Tiberius]

I disagree. My wife and I have looked and can't find a good source ever since our honeymoon in Ireland.

And none have been discovered on Mars yet.

Have you looked everywhere in the universe? Perhaps you don't have enough faith to see the poppadoms.

I thought it was obvious. Humans don't have have tails.

In those cases where "tail" structures are found at birth, they have not been functional tails. If that was a normal variation of humans, functional tails would occur now and then by chance.

Why? Why do you think they would NEED to be fully functioning tails?

As I said, it's a purely human construct used for MEMORIZING lists.
I qualify for my own classification system. I'll message you a picture of myself if need be.
Actually, I look a bit like the guy on the right, below. Grayer though. And white is not my first choice for tee shirts.

First of all, I don't care what you look like.

Secondly, it seems to me that if a body part evolved for a particular purpose and is mostly used for that purpose, then that purpose would be the primary purpose for that body part, even if that same body part also performs other functions.

Let me guess......your sources told you that toe nails had no function and you believed them without checking first.
You act just like those you condemn.

You DO realise that you were responding to yourself here, don't you?

In any case, assuming you were talking to me...

My mother has had problems with her little toes for many years and has had them removed. She is not alone. Many people all over the world have had toes removed, due to disease, accident, frostbite, etc. They all have the rest of the foot and they all have the ability to walk perfectly well.

So don't give me some nonsense about how toes are required to walk when I have seen for myself that it is not true.

 

[Smidlee]

Yes, we do. Do you really think it makes sense to put the amusement park so close to the sewage plant, if you know what I mean?

I've played on a tennis court right beside a sewage plant. I'm sure glad both were designed away from my face.

 

[SkyWriting]

Secondly, it seems to me that if a body part evolved for a particular purpose and is mostly used for that purpose, then that purpose would be the primary purpose for that body part, even if that same body part also performs other functions.

But we don't have tails, so your point fails.

So don't give me some nonsense about how toes are required to walk when I have seen for myself that it is not true.

We were talking about toe nails. They provide a fulcrum point pushing the nail back into the nerves providing additional sensitivity for walking and balance and running.

Note that some Olympians run barefoot and win.
I had a friend and was not even aware he was a double amputee.
I just thought he had stiff legs from combat injury.

 

[Smidlee]

But we don't have tails, so your point fails.

Actually we did have tails in early development of embryo. Vestigial arguments are basically arguments of ignorance just like junk DNA idea. Evolutionists loved to claim junk DNA was evidence against design yet the more we learn the more the junk DNA myth crumbles. Some of the so called junk DNA is important during development of the embryo while other only is express in certain cells. Going from a single cell into a man is very complex and we got so much more to learn exactly this take place.
Evolutionist first comes to the conclusion that something is vestigial or junk then tries their best to make the data fit their view. This is the exact same thing they accuse creationists of doing.
P.S it's just like "why do men have nipples?" Since our knowledge is so limited we don't know males have nipples due to efficiency which is a good thing. Evolutionist dogmatically claims it's because of evolution.

 

[mzungu]

Actually we did have tails in early development of embryo. Vestigial arguments are basically arguments of ignorance just like junk DNA idea. Evolutionists loved to claim junk DNA was evidence against design yet the more we learn the more the junk DNA myth crumbles. Some of the so called junk DNA is important during development of the embryo while other only is express in certain cells. Going from a single cell into a man is very complex and we got so much more to learn exactly this take place.
Evolutionist first comes to the conclusion that something is vestigial or junk then tries their best to make the data fit their view. This is the exact same thing they accuse creationists of doing.
P.S it's just like "why do men have nipples?" Since our knowledge is so limited we don't know males have nipples due to efficiency which is a good thing. Evolutionist dogmatically claims it's because of evolution.

As an industrial designer myself, I can assure you that if I were to design all life as it is today (including humans) then I am afraid I would have been fired for incompetency after designing humans.

Any engineer who calls humans his greatest and most perfect design is not a good designer.

Just the fact that he designed the ingestion and breathing pipes to end up in one single pipe actually guarantees that thousands of people will choke to death every year. Dolphins do not have this handicap.

The mere fact that many animals have vision that far surpasses our own (including insects) or the fact that sharks have unlimited number of replacement teeth, or our sense of smell and hearing is abysmal compared to most animals just goes to show that this most perfect of designs called humans is in fact just like Windows ME® A TOTAL disaster and failure!

Also what kind of a designer would put the entertainment system in between two sewage systems

 

[USincognito]

Actually we did have tails in early development of embryo.

I think you mean "do" and you're right. Embryology and EvoDevo is powerful evidence in favor of evolution.

Vestigial arguments are basically arguments of ignorance just like junk DNA idea.

Ooops. You're conflating 18th Century ideas about anatomical vestiges with contemporary evidences for such. Unfortunately for Creationists, as we learn more about the human body, we don't have to rely on things like the appendix or rather more obvious things like ear muscles that can only wiggle them or toes that can only grasp certain objects like dropped pencils or a towel after one has taken a shower. We have concrete evidences to vestigiality in things like non-functional muscles we possess that otherwise would be used to make our tail work.

Evolutionists loved to claim junk DNA was evidence against design yet the more we learn the more the junk DNA myth crumbles. Some of the so called junk DNA is important during development of the embryo while other only is express in certain cells. Going from a single cell into a man is very complex and we got so much more to learn exactly this take place.

Oh brother! You're not being suckered in by the C/IDer claims about the ENCODE study are you? Are you aware that their definition of "function" is so elastic, it would include garbage making the air smell differently as a "function".

 

[SkyWriting]

Actually we did have tails in early development of embryo.

Time has shown that the final function is what counts.
What looks like a tail during early development, ends up not a tail.
What looks like gills during early development, ends up not being gills.

 

[SkyWriting]

As an industrial designer myself, I can assure you that if I were to design all life as it is today (including humans) then I am afraid I would have been fired for incompetency after designing humans.

You are mistaken. No designer has documented an improvement on the human form.
http://www.asme.org/products/journals/journal-of-biomechanical-engineering
http://www.asme.org/products/journals/journal-of-medical-devices
http://www.asme.org/products/proceedings/advances-in-bioengineering-(8)

Nor have you documented even one thing professionals agree would be an improvement.

Boys would love x-Ray vision to see through girls dresses, and an endless supply of teeth they could knock out over and over on reality TV shows like "Jackass" , so I must exclude childish fantasies.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think you mean "do" and you're right. Embryology and EvoDevo is powerful evidence in favor of evolution.

The topic is hardly even mentioned in passing by teachers of Embryology.

"Evolution, the development of the variety of life forms, would not have been possible without mutations. Much more frequently, though, such mutations lead to inheritable and/or to newly appearing diseases of which ca. 5000 are known. Looking at the death statistics of newborns (Fig. 1), one sees that congenital abnormalities (birth defects) comprise more than one fifth of all fatalities among newborns and infants."

http://emb.carnegiescience.edu/

http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Becoming_an_Embryologist_Job_Description_Career_Info.html

 

[Jamin4422]

a broken typewriter can be used to pound in nails.

You have a broken typewriter in your closet in case you need to pound a nail with it? I think we should call the hoarders show to see if you qualify for a star performance on their program. It has been well over 20 years sense I have had a typewriter in the house. That does bring back memories though. My dad had a really nice electric typewriter at the office that he would bring home if we needed to type a paper. Although there was always the old one we could use if we needed something right away.

 

[toLiJC]

what is the guarantee that most of the things which we could see until now, are not just misleading conspiracy of the "darkness"/wicked?!

2 Thessalonians 2:7-11 "For the mystery of iniquity(ie the spiritual/religious iniquity) doth already work: only he who now letteth |will let|, until he be taken out of the way.http://biblebg.com/bible/index.php And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:http://biblebg.com/bible/index.php |Even him(ie the "beast/666")|, whose coming(ie whose appearance) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,http://biblebg.com/bible/index.php And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish(ie by the unrighteous spiritual workers); because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.http://biblebg.com/bible/index.php And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:http://biblebg.com/bible/index.php That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness(ie who practice the faith not according to the Will of God by Jesus, but prefer some other/wrong direction(-s) of the faith)."

Blessings

 

[Tiberius]

But we don't have tails, so your point fails.

Neither does a manx cat, so I guess that isn't a cat at all!

Really, what's your point?

We were talking about toe nails. They provide a fulcrum point pushing the nail back into the nerves providing additional sensitivity for walking and balance and running.

Note that some Olympians run barefoot and win.
I had a friend and was not even aware he was a double amputee.
I just thought he had stiff legs from combat injury.

Completely irrelevant, in fact they support my position. Toenails are obviously not needed given that so many people can function without them. Given that they are a source of disease (ingrown toenails and the like), why would we have them?

 

[mzungu]

You are mistaken. No designer has documented an improvement on the human form.
Journal of Biomechanical Engineering - ASME
Journal of Medical Devices - ASME
2003 Advances in Bioengineering - ASME

Nor have you documented even one thing professionals agree would be an improvement.

Boys would love x-Ray vision to see through girls dresses, and an endless supply of teeth they could knock out over and over on reality TV shows like "Jackass" , so I must exclude childish fantasies.

Did you even read my post

Humans are anatomically inferior in many ways to other animals especially in Vision, Hearing, olfactory, strength, speed, regeneration of lost limbs, resistance to infections, resistance to cancer, teeth, etc, ad infinitum.

Only a fool would consider humans to be a perfect design. In fact Functions Dictates Form is a very strong design parameter in evolution.

 

[SkyWriting]

Humans are anatomically inferior in many ways to other animals especially in Vision, Hearing, olfactory, strength, speed, regeneration of lost limbs, resistance to infections, resistance to cancer, teeth, etc, ad infinitum.

As I said, teenagers always dream of superpowers.
You've not documented one professional opinion on the subject.
Childish fantasies don't count.

 

[SkyWriting]

Neither does a manx cat, so I guess that isn't a cat at all!

Really, what's your point?

Tail support can't be a primary function because we don't have tails.
And primary and secondary are all in the mind anyway.
It it's needed, it's needed.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you saw someone using a typewriter to pound in nails at a construction site, what would you think? Would you think that this person is not using the typewriter for it's primary function?

That's about all a typewriter is good for these days.
And it wouldn't surprise me I if saw someone using an iPad that way.

It doesn't matter what I think. It could be a block of ice
or a bar of gold. If it's available and it works, then it's a valid function.
What I think is the "primary" function is irrelevant.

 

[Skaloop]

As I said, teenagers always dream of superpowers.
You've not documented one professional opinion on the subject.
Childish fantasies don't count.

But they're not superpowers; they're natural abilities/acuities that animals have that surpass our own. So it would certainly be possible for us to have them, since they already exist.

 

[Loudmouth]

You have a broken typewriter in your closet in case you need to pound a nail with it?

We have the anatomical version in the form of the human coccyx.

 

[Loudmouth]

Tail support can't be a primary function because we don't have tails.

Doesn't stop the coccyx from being vestigial. Here is the definition of vestigial that scientists use:

"The concept of vestigiality applies to genetically determined structures or attributes that have apparently lost most or all of its ancestral function in a given species. Assessment of the vestigial status must generally rely on comparison with homologous features in related species."
Vestigiality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When we talk about a feature being vestigial this is what we are talking about. The human coccyx has lost it's function as a bone meant for the support of a tail as seen in the homologous structure in other primates.

And primary and secondary are all in the mind anyway.

No, it isn't. We can OBSERVE the coccyx in other primate species, and use phylogenetic techniques to determine the ancestral state of homologous structures.

It it's needed, it's needed.

Yes, just like we need broken typewriters to pound in nails.