How do Creationists Explain Black Shale?

[Cis.jd]

Some things may have existed and had other purposes. Sharp teeth could have been used on tough things like trees. Fruit bats have sharp teeth and eat fruit.
And/Or they changed to have things like poison and stinging leaves and other things at the fall. It would have been immediate and sudden, as sudden as Adam and Eve realizing they were naked. When the world corrupted, it all corrupted including all the animals and plants, dirt, rocks and even the atoms. Thorns and prickles are a direct result of the fall.

Certain behaviors may have taken time and circumstance, but they only occurred because the animal was corrupted from its original intended purpose.
If not I doubt God would have included animals within his warning to Noah.
Genesis 9
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man.

Sure, somethings. I don't see how our sharp teeth is needed for trees or for fruit bats to need to eat, since eating is part of survival.

There are things in nature designed for survival. For example, male lions are natural fighters, and physically they have mains, forearms and other natural features that compliment their nature of fighting. Then you have animals that make noises to either attract prey or ward off predators. Why would animals have those features when there was no need for survival?

Certain behaviors may have taken time and circumstance, but they only occurred because the animal was corrupted from its original intended purpose.

nice, you are almost getting it. If you think it's out of corruption or whatever, biological change happened. We and the other animals eventually developed certain physical things after the garden. In short, creation evolved in order to adapt to and survive the environment.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Consider this tread for other geographic evidence.
Geologic Proof of an old earth creation.

 

[Dale]

Some things may have existed and had other purposes. Sharp teeth could have been used on tough things like trees. Fruit bats have sharp teeth and eat fruit.
And/Or they changed to have things like poison and stinging leaves and other things at the fall. It would have been immediate and sudden, as sudden as Adam and Eve realizing they were naked. When the world corrupted, it all corrupted including all the animals and plants, dirt, rocks and even the atoms. Thorns and prickles are a direct result of the fall.

Certain behaviors may have taken time and circumstance, but they only occurred because the animal was corrupted from its original intended purpose.
If not I doubt God would have included animals within his warning to Noah.
Genesis 9
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man.

Coffee,
Here is one of several reasons why I don't think you've thought this through.
Adam gives names to the animals in Genesis 2. If all animals in creation instantly changed by the end of Genesis 3, then none of the animals named in Genesis 2 exist today. This certainly makes the narrative more confusing. Why would the naming of animals even be mentioned if all those animals almost immediately vanish and are replaced by something else?

 

[coffee4u]

Coffee,
Here is one of several reasons why I don't think you've thought this through.
Adam gives names to the animals in Genesis 2. If all animals in creation instantly changed by the end of Genesis 3, then none of the animals named in Genesis 2 exist today. This certainly makes the narrative more confusing. Why would the naming of animals even be mentioned if all those animals almost immediately vanish and are replaced by something else?

Like Cis.jd you are not getting what I mean.

The animals didn't vanish, they changed. The name would have stayed the same. As to animals now, they are descendants of the kinds but none of the actual kinds exist now.

An animal comes to Adam and Adam names it, this creature was a 'kind.'
We know it was a kind as kinds are talked about in Genesis 1 and again as going onto the ark, but other classifications are used there too.

What exactly is a 'kind' is not for us to know. In modern classification we have Kingdom – Phylum – Class – Order – Family – Genus – Species.
Perhaps 'Kind' is closest to 'Order' or 'Family' but not necessarily the same. This is Biblical terminology not modern scientific terminology. God had his own order for life.
So the cat kind that Adam named wasn't a lion or a jaguar that we know today. It may have been one large cat kind from which all large cats came from.

Then we have the language that Adam spoke, it wasn't English, it may not have even been ancient Hebrew but maybe it was some form of ancient Hebrew.

We are told very little about the changes that animals went through but they did change, because the entire world and everything on it changed and possibly even atoms changed.
Romans 8:19-22
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

Genesis 1:21: “So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.”
Everything was seen by God as good when he first created them. There wasn't poisonous snakes, blood sucking leeches or anything harmful.

Genesis 1
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Man and animals ate plants.

Genesis 9:2
The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands.
Change after the flood

Will one day be back the way it was originally intended.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food.
Just because we can't imagine a lions diet being straw doesn't mean God can't change animals back to how they previously were.

 

[Cis.jd]

Like Cis.jd you are not getting what I mean.

The animals didn't vanish, they changed.

I don't know about vanished, I am saying they changed which is what evolution is. I guess people can look at it as "vanished" because what was in that garden was totally different to now. Predators are examples.

I saw a spider earlier today, a spider is known for making webs to live and to catch its pray and some of them have venom. How does this work exactly in the garden? These species came later and likely from what was originally created.

 

[Dale]

Like Cis.jd you are not getting what I mean.

The animals didn't vanish, they changed. The name would have stayed the same. As to animals now, they are descendants of the kinds but none of the actual kinds exist now.

An animal comes to Adam and Adam names it, this creature was a 'kind.'
We know it was a kind as kinds are talked about in Genesis 1 and again as going onto the ark, but other classifications are used there too.

What exactly is a 'kind' is not for us to know. In modern classification we have Kingdom – Phylum – Class – Order – Family – Genus – Species.
Perhaps 'Kind' is closest to 'Order' or 'Family' but not necessarily the same. This is Biblical terminology not modern scientific terminology. God had his own order for life.
So the cat kind that Adam named wasn't a lion or a jaguar that we know today. It may have been one large cat kind from which all large cats came from.

Then we have the language that Adam spoke, it wasn't English, it may not have even been ancient Hebrew but maybe it was some form of ancient Hebrew.

We are told very little about the changes that animals went through but they did change, because the entire world and everything on it changed and possibly even atoms changed.
Romans 8:19-22
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

Genesis 1:21: “So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.”
Everything was seen by God as good when he first created them. There wasn't poisonous snakes, blood sucking leeches or anything harmful.

Genesis 1
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Man and animals ate plants.

Genesis 9:2
The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands.
Change after the flood

Will one day be back the way it was originally intended.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food.
Just because we can't imagine a lions diet being straw doesn't mean God can't change animals back to how they previously were.

Coffee,

As usual, all statements by creationists are unverifiable.

I think you missed the point of what Isaiah was saying about lions and lambs, or wolves and lambs. Isaiah is speaking symbolically of large nations and small nations. In our world, large nations are aggressive and small nations are defenseless. Isaiah is saying that this will not always be so, the Messiah will bring harmony.

 

[coffee4u]

Sure, somethings. I don't see how our sharp teeth is needed for trees or for fruit bats to need to eat, since eating is part of survival.

There are things in nature designed for survival. For example, male lions are natural fighters, and physically they have mains, forearms and other natural features that compliment their nature of fighting. Then you have animals that make noises to either attract prey or ward off predators. Why would animals have those features when there was no need for survival?


nice, you are almost getting it. If you think it's out of corruption or whatever, biological change happened. We and the other animals eventually developed certain physical things after the garden. In short, creation evolved in order to adapt to and survive the environment.

I don't know why you bother asking for a creationist perspective when you don't even plan to listen.

 

[coffee4u]

I don't know about vanished, I am saying they changed which is what evolution is. I guess people can look at it as "vanished" because what was in that garden was totally different to now. Predators are examples.

I saw a spider earlier today, a spider is known for making webs to live and to catch its pray and some of them have venom. How does this work exactly in the garden? These species came later and likely from what was originally created.

And creation says there was change as well, but within rails, within the kinds. One type of animal will never eventually be another such as 'dinosaurs turned into birds' Dinosaurs were always dinosaurs and birds were always birds.

You don't listen so why even ask?

I already explained the spider didn't have venom in the garden. It may have had some kind of fluid or fangs but what it did was something different, something helpful. Or it had none of those structures and they changed directly after the fall. Spiders didn't catch pray in the garden.
Genesis 30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, where-in there is life, I have given every green herb for meat; and it was so."
They changed because they were corrupted.

 

[Cis.jd]

And creation says there was change as well, but within rails, within the kinds. One type of animal will never eventually be another such as 'dinosaurs turned into birds' Dinosaurs were always dinosaurs and birds were always birds.

You don't listen so why even ask?

I already explained the spider didn't have venom in the garden. It may have had some kind of fluid or fangs but what it did was something different, something helpful. Or it had none of those structures and they changed directly after the fall. Spiders didn't catch pray in the garden.
Genesis 30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, where-in there is life, I have given every green herb for meat; and it was so."
They changed because they were corrupted.

I don't understand how you think this way. The animals where completely different, if we are going to take the garden as literal as possible, there where no predators so these where different animals. A predator has the physical appearance and biology to kill another animal. Lets go back to the spider, other than you making assumptions as to what they where, a spider's entire anatomy is designed for it's survival and it's ability to kill an insect. The front legs, the rear that shoots the web, and the fangs are all natural features for predatory reasons, and this is just the basic/common spider there are so many different breads with their own unique predatory features. At the sametime, their physique is also to help them survive their natural habitat. They were no doubt different animals.

 

[Cis.jd]

I don't know why you bother asking for a creationist perspective when you don't even plan to listen.

I think it's you who doesn't plan to listen.

 

[Dale]

I don't know why you bother asking for a creationist perspective when you don't even plan to listen.

Coffee,

It just seems to me that there is no point in naming an animal, then changing that animal beyond recognition, and then saying that it is the same animal. Today, virtually all animals are predators, prey, or both. Take snakes, for example. All snakes are predators, they are meat eaters, their entire bodies are designed to that end. Yet creationists tell us that there were no predators before the Fall. Logically, then, there would be no snakes before the Fall, since snakes are all predators. Yet Genesis tells us that Eve was tempted by a snake. The only change Genesis mentions is that the snake loses its legs.

Okay, explain that.

 

[coffee4u]

Coffee,

It just seems to me that there is no point in naming an animal, then changing that animal beyond recognition, and then saying that it is the same animal. Today, virtually all animals are predators, prey, or both. Take snakes, for example. All snakes are predators, they are meat eaters, their entire bodies are designed to that end. Yet creationists tell us that there were no predators before the Fall. Logically, then, there would be no snakes before the Fall, since snakes are all predators. Yet Genesis tells us that Eve was tempted by a snake. The only change Genesis mentions is that the snake loses its legs.

Okay, explain that.

As you said, the snake lost its legs.
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly

The same way other animals lost or gained structures.
Just because they changed doesn't mean they were unrecognizable.

Isaiah 65:25
the lion will eat straw like the ox
Could a lion today survive on straw or hay? Doubtful. A change will have to take place.
Do you think God is incapable of changing his creation as he wishes?

 

[coffee4u]

I don't understand how you think this way. The animals where completely different, if we are going to take the garden as literal as possible, there where no predators so these where different animals. A predator has the physical appearance and biology to kill another animal. Lets go back to the spider, other than you making assumptions as to what they where, a spider's entire anatomy is designed for it's survival and it's ability to kill an insect. The front legs, the rear that shoots the web, and the fangs are all natural features for predatory reasons, and this is just the basic/common spider there are so many different breads with their own unique predatory features. At the sametime, their physique is also to help them survive their natural habitat. They were no doubt different animals.

Read what I answered to Dale. These changes weren't natural, they were supernatural. No more of less than Jesus turning water into wine.
God changes things as he wishes. And the lion will be changed to survive on hay or straw because God pleases it.

Jeremiah 32:27
“I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?

 

[Cis.jd]

Read what I answered to Dale. These changes weren't natural, they were supernatural. No more of less than Jesus turning water into wine.
God changes things as he wishes. And the lion will be changed to survive on hay or straw because God pleases it.

Jeremiah 32:27
“I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?

But as I said. It doesn't matter how you want to define it, if you want to see it as supernatural or natural, the fact is life biologically had change which is what evolution is. Your "lion ill be change to survive on hay" doesn't mean much because right now lions have physical and biological natural characteristics that allow them to survive and operate in nature: whether to fight, reproduce, eat, etc. They are not the same as to what was in the garden because there would be no use for their physical features meant for a life of violence.

Theistic evolution believes evolution is part of the design of God, it's happens in nature but it is because of God designing life to be able to change and adapt to keep life going, so in a sense it can be looked as both.

 

[coffee4u]

But as I said. It doesn't matter how you want to define it, if you want to see it as supernatural or natural, the fact is life biologically had change which is what evolution is. Your "lion ill be change to survive on hay" doesn't mean much because right now lions have physical and biological natural characteristics that allow them to survive and operate in nature: whether to fight, reproduce, eat, etc. They are not the same as to what was in the garden because there would be no use for their physical features meant for a life of violence.

Theistic evolution believes evolution is part of the design of God, it's happens in nature but it is because of God designing life to be able to change and adapt to keep life going, so in a sense it can be looked as both.

The change at the fall looks nothing like evolution. Any structural change was instantaneous.

I know what you believe it to be, but I disagree as evolution according to you all took millions of years, millions of years of living things dying. God using his sworn enemy to create with. So no I will never believe that because his creation was very good.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Destroyed because God hates death- it's not his sidekick in creation.

 

[Dale]

The change at the fall looks nothing like evolution. Any structural change was instantaneous.

I know what you believe it to be, but I disagree as evolution according to you all took millions of years, millions of years of living things dying. God using his sworn enemy to create with. So no I will never believe that because his creation was very good.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Destroyed because God hates death- it's not his sidekick in creation.

I’m not sure God shares your view of death. In the Old Testament, the Jews worship God with animal sacrifice. That means killing animals. In the New Testament, the death of Christ redeems us from sin.

In Genesis, the Tree of Life is in the Garden of Eden. That means there was death outside the Garden, doesn’t it? So death didn’t begin with the Expulsion from Eden, or there would be no need for a Tree of Life.

 

[Cis.jd]

The change at the fall looks nothing like evolution. Any structural change was instantaneous.

I know what you believe it to be, but I disagree as evolution according to you all took millions of years, millions of years of living things dying. God using his sworn enemy to create with. So no I will never believe that because his creation was very good.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Destroyed because God hates death- it's not his sidekick in creation.

First of all, you are admitting there was change which means your own common sense is ticking that there is no possible way that animals where biologically the same and some did not exist at the beginning. The problem is you are so biased to your beliefs.

Next, There is nothing in the bible that says it was instantaneous, we have discovered that it was all gradually. Also, it is illogical to think change was instantaneous because animals are at their best physical bodies through usage and experience. For example, look at lions (or any animal) who were raised in captivity compared to those in the wild, the wild Lions are much stronger and have better hunting/fighting skills because they have actual experience. If it was all instantaneous, then would that mean they all had the equal muscle mass, strength, size, and hunting skills? no.

God had to make it gradually so that his creation would be able to adapt better.

 

[coffee4u]

I’m not sure God shares your view of death. In the Old Testament, the Jews worship God with animal sacrifice. That means killing animals. In the New Testament, the death of Christ redeems us from sin.

The animal sacrifice was in place of Jesus until he could come and be the sacrifice, the Passover lamb.
The fact that Christ died for us shows how much God loves us. He also didn't stay dead.
Acts 2:24
“But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.”

If God thought death was nice in any way shape or form he would not be calling it his enemy and throwing it into the same lake of fire as the devil, the beast and false prophet

Revelation 20
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

In Genesis, the Tree of Life is in the Garden of Eden. That means there was death outside the Garden, doesn’t it? So death didn’t begin with the Expulsion from Eden, or there would be no need for a Tree of Life.

Death was because of sin and only because of sin. Outside the garden there was no sin and the animals had been given plants to eat, all of them.
Genesis 1
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Why do you think everyone will be resurrected to life and that the lion will eat straw and lie with the lamb and that God says there will be no more death after he remakes the heavens and the earth?
Because immortal life was always the plan. It started with immortal life and it will end with immortal life, a full circle. The garden was a sample to mankind of how it could and will be.
This is why there were two trees, one was Gods way the other was the way of Self. Man had a choice. God created the earth and man in perfection so that he had understood exactly what he was choosing to give up when he took the fruit.

The new earth has two trees of life but just like in the garden they are not there to stop man from dying.
Rev 21
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

When man chose the way of knowledge he died spiritually and physically. Because you did this said God, from ash you were made and to ash you will return. Not because this is how I designed it, but because you disobeyed. For the wages of sin is death.

 

[coffee4u]

First of all, you are admitting there was change which means your own common sense is ticking that there is no possible way that animals where biologically the same and some did not exist at the beginning. The problem is you are so biased to your beliefs.

Next, There is nothing in the bible that says it was instantaneous, we have discovered that it was all gradually. Also, it is illogical to think change was instantaneous because animals are at their best physical bodies through usage and experience. For example, look at lions (or any animal) who were raised in captivity compared to those in the wild, the wild Lions are much stronger and have better hunting/fighting skills because they have actual experience. If it was all instantaneous, then would that mean they all had the equal muscle mass, strength, size, and hunting skills? no.

God had to make it gradually so that his creation would be able to adapt better.

As I said way back at the start of this the Bible only tells us a few things, it doesn't give details. You asked me what I thought so I tossed out some ideas.
We do know that all animals ate plants at creation-even animals that are now carnivorous. How they looked is anyone's guess. The fall caused what we now see. Some things were probably instantaneous other things may have been a bit more gradual. That isn't the important thing and you know it, what is important is that there was no death before sin, that Gods never used evolution to create. This all came about after creation and is a corruption of the original.

 

[Cis.jd]

As I said way back at the start of this the Bible only tells us a few things, it doesn't give details. You asked me what I thought so I tossed out some ideas.
We do know that all animals ate plants at creation-even animals that are now carnivorous. How they looked is anyone's guess. The fall caused what we now see. Some things were probably instantaneous other things may have been a bit more gradual. That isn't the important thing and you know it, what is important is that there was no death before sin, that Gods never used evolution to create. This all came about after creation and is a corruption of the original.

Here is the issue. You are tossing your own ideas against facts. Why would you make an "idea" about biology just instantaneously? It is just showing you are biased. You are saying "some may have been instant some have been gradual" and to me, you are wrestling what you don't want to admit which is deep down evolution makes sense.

Lets put aside the carnivores, but even with herbivores. What is the use of eating in general? Teeth alone is a useless feature because they don't need to eat, they can't verbally communicate like we do either. Even nostrils would be useless because why need oxygen or the sense of smell?

It doesn't matter if you think it's corruption, because at the end God had to redesign and shape us to adapt to a changing planet and that is what evolution is.