How do Creationists Explain Black Shale?

[DaveISBA]

What's funny is that anyone who has ever been to the beach before has found dead clams with closed shells (though broken shells will often be found as well). Yet here we have YECs arguing that if there shells are closed, then they must be alive. A complete detachment from reality.

The detachment from reality is yours. I used to hang out at the beach and all I saw were separated in half clam shells!

if they're closed they're alive!
What muscles open and close clams?
"A clam/mussel has a shell with two halves. These shells have elastic ligaments that naturally want to be open. To keep the shells closed, they have adductor muscles to hold the shells together. Most of the time the heat will denature the proteins in the adductor muscles causing it to release the shells."
Bivalve shell - Wikipedia
"In life the ligament opens the shell (like a bent eraser in a door hinge), and the adductor muscle or muscles close the shell (like a person pulling the door closed by the handle). When a bivalve dies, its adductor muscle(s) relax"
Therefore the clam shells open and eventually separate when they die!

 

[Job 33:6]

The detachment from reality is yours. I used to hang out at the beach and all I saw were separated in half clam shells!

if they're closed they're alive!
What muscles open and close clams?
"A clam/mussel has a shell with two halves. These shells have elastic ligaments that naturally want to be open. To keep the shells closed, they have adductor muscles to hold the shells together. Most of the time the heat will denature the proteins in the adductor muscles causing it to release the shells."
Bivalve shell - Wikipedia
"In life the ligament opens the shell (like a bent eraser in a door hinge), and the adductor muscle or muscles close the shell (like a person pulling the door closed by the handle). When a bivalve dies, its adductor muscle(s) relax"
Therefore the clam shells open and eventually separate when they die!

Some will be open while dead, some closed while dead. It's not a competition or anything. Here are photos that include dead clams that are closed:

Signs That Your Clams Have Gone Bad.

"Clams should be slightly open, and if you tap on them, the shells should close rather quickly. If the clam shells are closed or do not close when you tap on them, then the clam is dead. That's when you need to toss them in the trash."

Is it safe to eat the clam that didn't open?

"After you have steamed the clams, most of them should be open. The few clams that stay closed doesn't necessarily mean they are bad."

https://theweek.com/articles/443100/everything-need-know-about-cooking-mollusks?amp

"If they're closed, don't shut, or float in water, they're dead."

Like I said, go to a beach sometime and just look. I've seen plenty of dead clams with closed shells. And if you haven't, then that's just your own lack of awareness.

 

[Dale]

The detachment from reality is yours. I used to hang out at the beach and all I saw were separated in half clam shells!

if they're closed they're alive!
What muscles open and close clams?
"A clam/mussel has a shell with two halves. These shells have elastic ligaments that naturally want to be open. To keep the shells closed, they have adductor muscles to hold the shells together. Most of the time the heat will denature the proteins in the adductor muscles causing it to release the shells."
Bivalve shell - Wikipedia
"In life the ligament opens the shell (like a bent eraser in a door hinge), and the adductor muscle or muscles close the shell (like a person pulling the door closed by the handle). When a bivalve dies, its adductor muscle(s) relax"
Therefore the clam shells open and eventually separate when they die!

Creationists assume that all the fossils in the world were laid down in one year. That isn’t true and you certainly haven’t proved it here.

Remember, creationists have never discovered anything. They just lift things from standard science when it suits their purpose.

I don't have any reason to believe that all bivalve fossils were laid down at the same time.

 

[Dale]

The detachment from reality is yours. I used to hang out at the beach and all I saw were separated in half clam shells!

if they're closed they're alive!
What muscles open and close clams?
"A clam/mussel has a shell with two halves. These shells have elastic ligaments that naturally want to be open. To keep the shells closed, they have adductor muscles to hold the shells together. Most of the time the heat will denature the proteins in the adductor muscles causing it to release the shells."
Bivalve shell - Wikipedia
"In life the ligament opens the shell (like a bent eraser in a door hinge), and the adductor muscle or muscles close the shell (like a person pulling the door closed by the handle). When a bivalve dies, its adductor muscle(s) relax"
Therefore the clam shells open and eventually separate when they die!

I ran across a story in Popular Mechanics about a fossilized clam that lived 70 million years ago. Using a combination of sophisticated analytical methods, including X rays, researchers uncovered amazingly detailed addition of layers. Among other things, they found that when this clam, or bivalve, was alive, the year was 372 days long. The earth was the same distance from the sun but it was rotating faster and the days were slightly shorter. Days were about
23 ½ hours to our way of figuring. Since the days were shorter, there were more days in a year. Since then, tidal friction has gradually slowed down the earth’s rotation so that we only have 365 days in a year.

This fits with standard science. Do creationists accept this evidence?

Story: How This Prehistoric Clam Tracked the Moon
Link
How This Prehistoric Clam Tracked the Moon

 

[Dale]

The detachment from reality is yours. I used to hang out at the beach and all I saw were separated in half clam shells!

if they're closed they're alive!
What muscles open and close clams?
"A clam/mussel has a shell with two halves. These shells have elastic ligaments that naturally want to be open. To keep the shells closed, they have adductor muscles to hold the shells together. Most of the time the heat will denature the proteins in the adductor muscles causing it to release the shells."
Bivalve shell - Wikipedia
"In life the ligament opens the shell (like a bent eraser in a door hinge), and the adductor muscle or muscles close the shell (like a person pulling the door closed by the handle). When a bivalve dies, its adductor muscle(s) relax"
Therefore the clam shells open and eventually separate when they die!

Dave,

I’m starting to doubt your claim that most clams, or bivalves, are fossilized in the closed position.
Just because creationists say it doesn’t make it true.


<< The animal
Bivalves, which belong to the phylum Mollusca and the class Bivalvia, have two hard, usually bowl-shaped, shells (called valves) enclosing the soft body. The valves are the parts usually found as fossils, but decay of the elastic hinge tissue that joins them means that they are rarely preserved together. >>


This is a summary from the British Geological Survey. The BGS says that “they are rarely preserved together.” Most fossilized bivalve shells are found separated from each other. Obviously, the two halves of the shell must first open, and then be separated.


Link
This is the website of the British Geological Survey.
Bivalves - British Geological Survey

 

[DaveISBA]

"Clams should be slightly open, and if you tap on them, the shells should close rather quickly. If the clam shells are closed or do not close when you tap on them, then the clam is dead. That's when you need to toss them in the trash."

Well Then there is a conflict with your cooking class information and the information about the fossilization of clams because:
How are clam fossils created? – JanetPanic.com "Fossilized clams themselves are like time capsules. When they die, fine sediment and particles can become trapped inside them. As they’re buried into the fossil record over time, (they’re forced to close). This makes them excellent record-keepers from their time" My emphasis and bold. Which can only mean when clams die they open! You haven't given any proof that your closed clams are actually dead!

We can trade clam images all day but the science says "These shells have elastic ligaments that naturally want to be open. To keep the shells closed, they have (adductor muscles to hold the shells together)"
"When a bivalve dies, its adductor muscle(s) relax"

 

[DaveISBA]

Creationists assume that all the fossils in the world were laid down in one year. That isn’t true and you certainly haven’t proved it here.

Again you don't seem to understand the process of fossilization!
https://www.digitalatlasofancientlife.org/learn/nature-fossil-record/the-process-of-fossilization/
Fossilization and the environment
"(The rapid burial of remains beneath a blanket of sediment is critical to the process of fossilization) because burial separates the remains from the biological and physical processes that would otherwise destroy them."
How Long do Fossils Take to Form?
The key to fossil formation is thus rapid burial in a medium capable of preventing or retarding complete decay. The remains of organisms must be buried before decay and scavenging completely destroy them" My emphasis and bold! Meaning the depositing of sediment had to be rapid in order for the rapid burial!
To except your premise you have to believe that, for instance, the Niobrara Chalk Bed in Kansas deposited, supposedly, some 80 million years ago during the Coniacians who’s scenario is of slow and gradual accumulation of tiny grains in a placid sea over a claimed 30 to 40 million years where “Fossils of the large, swimming reptiles called mosasaurs are common." "The longest one found about 40 feet long."? In a Geological Survey “The deposition of this material took place at a rate of approximately 0.036 mm per year” A 40 ft. mosasaur with a height of say 5 ft. would take 42,000 years to bury at that rate! Bodies from the Titanic sank to the ocean floor but after a little more than a 100 years “any bodies at the site have long since decomposed”

This is a summary from the British Geological Survey. The BGS says that “they are rarely preserved together.” Most fossilized bivalve shells are found separated from each other. Obviously, the two halves of the shell must first open, and then be separated.

So you're debunking your claim earlier "The truth is that clams spend most of their lives in the closed position. When they are buried and fossilize, it is perfectly natural that they would fossilize that way." Thank you for disproving your own argument making the point about clams shell opening when they die!

A bed of fossilized small clams. Fossilized Giant clams on mount Everest! When whole beds of clams are buried all at once, they're buried, die and fossilize in the closed position! All the images of fossilized clams are predominately in the closed position!

 

[DaveISBA]

I ran across a story in Popular Mechanics about a fossilized clam that lived 70 million years ago. Using a combination of sophisticated analytical methods, including X rays, researchers uncovered amazingly detailed addition of layers. Among other things, they found that when this clam, or bivalve, was alive, the year was 372 days long. The earth was the same distance from the sun but it was rotating faster and the days were slightly shorter. Days were about
23 ½ hours to our way of figuring. Since the days were shorter, there were more days in a year. Since then, tidal friction has gradually slowed down the earth’s rotation so that we only have 365 days in a year.
This fits with standard science. Do creationists accept this evidence?

That the days were a half hour shorter? Even if true what significance if any does that have?

 

[Sheila Davis]

Creationists have often told me that all sedimentary rock was formed during the Flood. That is one reason they see no reason for rock formation taking place slowly over millions of years. Sedimentary rock certainly isn’t rare, it accounts for 70% of the Earth’s crust.

If forty days and nights of rain led to a worldwide Flood with no land remaining, one thing is clear. Those raindrops would absorb oxygen on the way down. In addition, creationists tell us that canyons and river valleys were formed by tumultuous Floodwaters shaping the landscape. Waves of flood waters crashing against mountains, hills, plateaus, and masses of sand and dirt would mean more opportunity for oxygen to be dissolved in the waters.

Black Shale is a sedimentary rock, and it forms when there is very little oxygen around, in an oxygen-depleted environment. It also forms in water that is slow-moving or stagnant.

“A black color in sedimentary rocks almost always indicates the presence of organic materials. Just one or two percent organic materials can impart a dark gray or black color to the rock. In addition, this black color almost always implies that the shale formed from sediment deposited in an oxygen-deficient environment. Any oxygen that entered the environment quickly reacted with the decaying organic debris. If a large amount of oxygen was present, the organic debris would all have decayed. An oxygen-poor environment also provides the proper conditions for the formation of sulfide minerals such as pyrite, another important mineral found in most black shales.”
--Shale: Sedimentary Rock - Pictures, Definition & More

“Shales are typically deposited in very slow moving water and are often found in lakes and lagoonal deposits, in river deltas, on floodplains and offshore from beach sands. They can also be deposited in sedimentary basins and on the continental shelf, in relatively deep, quiet water.”

“‘Black shales’ are dark, as a result of being especially rich in unoxidized carbon. Common in some Paleozoic and Mesozoic strata, black shales were deposited in anoxic, reducing environments, such as in stagnant water columns.”
--Shale | Properties, Composition, Formation, Uses » Geology Science

If creationists are right, black shale shouldn’t exist. Yet it is actually the “source rock” for petroleum and natural gas.

Early translators of scripture misunderstood and taught in error that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days and the Earth was 6000 years old since it is written one day to the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day.

Even though they will use 2nd Peter 3 and 8 to determine one day as a thousand years to say that the Earth is a thousand years old -( plus the genealogy of mankind through Adam as written in Scripture) _ they did not use that same principle to determine that the Six-Day creation the word day could have been 6 thousand years. The reasons are because of the different Hebrew word used for day.
Their misunderstanding of the usage of the Hebrew word Yom which can mean a period of time and deducing the usage of the Hebrew words for day each time it is written in Scripture. Failing to understand the Hebrews had no formal way of writing - as did many cultures who acquired a system of writing in the ancient days - unlike the educated authors of today.

Hebrew Word Definition: Day | AHRC

The Meaning of "Day" in Genesis

Plus who can say as an absolute even today's translations of ancient Hebrew language is correct?

Secondly assuming 2nd Peter 3:8 is also a literal meaning even though the word "as" is used by the writer. "As" can mean simular, like, for instance, in a manner of speaking etc - giving leeway that a thousand years could be billion years, a million years, no *exact* time frame in this usage. Letting the reader know that God himself is not subject to time nor is anything that he does. But man in his finite understanding puts God under time
T O O.
What does 2 Peter 3:8 mean when it says a thousand years are a day? | GotQuestions.org

What does 2 Peter 3:8 mean? | BibleRef.com

2 Peter 3:8 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

Several different commentaries
2 Peter 3:8 Commentaries: But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

My belief is all the entire land masses of the earth were not flooded - only the places that were occupied by humans and the offspring of the fallen Angels ( whether by sexual mingling or genetic artificial inseminations) Places that are now called North and South America, Artic, Antarctic had little-to-no people 6 to 10,000 years ago. Some of the land of Africa, Australia, parts of Europe and Asia we're not occupied. There were roughly a million at the lowest and 10 million at the highest during those time frames as calculated buy U.S. censors
Historical Estimates of World Population

The translators misunderstanding the usage of the term whole world - which I believe meant people not land. The majority of the cases when someone uses the term hold world it is referring to people

Whole world definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

IN THE WHOLE WORLD | Meaning & Definition for UK English | Lexico.com

in the whole (wide) world | meaning of in the whole (wide) world in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE

 

[Dale]

Again you don't seem to understand the process of fossilization!
https://www.digitalatlasofancientlife.org/learn/nature-fossil-record/the-process-of-fossilization/
Fossilization and the environment
"(The rapid burial of remains beneath a blanket of sediment is critical to the process of fossilization) because burial separates the remains from the biological and physical processes that would otherwise destroy them."
How Long do Fossils Take to Form?
The key to fossil formation is thus rapid burial in a medium capable of preventing or retarding complete decay. The remains of organisms must be buried before decay and scavenging completely destroy them" My emphasis and bold! Meaning the depositing of sediment had to be rapid in order for the rapid burial!
To except your premise you have to believe that, for instance, the Niobrara Chalk Bed in Kansas deposited, supposedly, some 80 million years ago during the Coniacians who’s scenario is of slow and gradual accumulation of tiny grains in a placid sea over a claimed 30 to 40 million years where “Fossils of the large, swimming reptiles called mosasaurs are common." "The longest one found about 40 feet long."? In a Geological Survey “The deposition of this material took place at a rate of approximately 0.036 mm per year” A 40 ft. mosasaur with a height of say 5 ft. would take 42,000 years to bury at that rate! Bodies from the Titanic sank to the ocean floor but after a little more than a 100 years “any bodies at the site have long since decomposed” So you're debunking your claim earlier "The truth is that clams spend most of their lives in the closed position. When they are buried and fossilize, it is perfectly natural that they would fossilize that way." Thank you for disproving your own argument making the point about clams shell opening when they die!

View attachment 314652
A bed of fossilized small clams. Fossilized Giant clams on mount Everest! When whole beds of clams are buried all at once, they're buried, die and fossilize in the closed position! All the images of fossilized clams are predominately in the closed position!

You’re the one who doesn’t understand fossilization. Do you believe that fossils are formed when dissolved minerals in flowing water replace the original material, including organic matter? If you don’t believe this, how do you explain petrified wood?

You believe that virtually all the fossils in the world were created at the same time. There’s no reason to believe this.

Dave: “A bed of fossilized small clams. Fossilized Giant clams on mount Everest!”

That comes about because of tectonic movements. When the Indian subcontinent, or what is now the Indian subcontinent, crashed into Asia, land was thrust upwards, creating the Himalayas. A place that was under water can wind up high in the Himalayas. There is nothing mysterious about this.

 

[Dale]

That the days were a half hour shorter? Even if true what significance if any does that have?

Dave: “That the days were a half hour shorter? Even if true what significance if any does that have?”

The significance is that this is exactly what science would predict. Physicists and geologists have always believed that the earth’s rotation is gradually slowing due to tidal friction. It’s just surprising to see that prediction confirmed by a clam, or bivalve.

I was taught that the earth’s rotation gradually slows over millions of years when I was in the sixth grade. This prediction is very well known.

 

[Wayne 59]

Why shouldn't it exsit,the flood was just a tiny period in history.Do we not now and in the past have the conditions to create what your talking about?

 

[Wayne 59]

I have a question for creationists who deny evolution, do any of you think the following animals existed: electric eels, crocodiles, and spiders back during the garden; Electric eels natural features are for defensive purposes, crocodiles have those sharp teeth and other predator features such as their death roll, and spiders make these webs to catch bugs and also have fangs to suck the juices out of their pray.

Do you think any of these natural/biological features where present in these animals or did they eventually just develop in them after adam and eve?

What's your point?

 

[Wayne 59]

One thing to keep in mind is most scientist are non beleivers and biased in there research from the start and are out to build on the theroy of evolution so what they put out is not written in stone, no pun intended.

 

[Dale]

One thing to keep in mind is most scientist are non beleivers and biased in there research from the start and are out to build on the theroy of evolution so what they put out is not written in stone, no pun intended.

Wayne: “most scientist are non beleivers”



This is completely false. If your pastor told you that, he lied.

“About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.”

“In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.”

Link
Scientists' Belief in God Varies Starkly by Discipline

 

[Cis.jd]

What's your point?

Why would those animals have those natural parts or features, when there was no death? What is the use of sharp teeth, we don't need to eat.. much more meat?

 

[Dale]

Why shouldn't it exsit,the flood was just a tiny period in history.Do we not now and in the past have the conditions to create what your talking about?

Creationists constantly say that oil and coal were formed during the Flood. The Flood seems to be their answer to just about every question. This doesn't make sense to me because in oil bearing regions, oil is often found on more than one level, at different distances from the surface. This makes sense if it was formed at different times, as standard science says it was. It makes no sense if it was all formed at once in a huge cataclysm.

As I pointed out in the OP, Black Shale forms in oxygen-poor water. This wouldn't be the case if it had recently come from the sky as rain, in a worldwide flood. Black Shale is necessary for the formation of oil.

 

[J_B_]

How do Creationists Explain Black Shale?

It's shale that's ... black.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Just a comment.
I am a creationist that believes in the gap and theistic evolution. Therefore, I believe that black shale is exactly what it seems to be. Probably millions of years old formed from an ancient swap or something. No problem.

 

[coffee4u]

I have a question for creationists who deny evolution, do any of you think the following animals existed: electric eels, crocodiles, and spiders back during the garden; Electric eels natural features are for defensive purposes, crocodiles have those sharp teeth and other predator features such as their death roll, and spiders make these webs to catch bugs and also have fangs to suck the juices out of their pray.

Do you think any of these natural/biological features where present in these animals or did they eventually just develop in them after adam and eve?

Some things may have existed and had other purposes. Sharp teeth could have been used on tough things like trees. Fruit bats have sharp teeth and eat fruit.
And/Or they changed to have things like poison and stinging leaves and other things at the fall. It would have been immediate and sudden, as sudden as Adam and Eve realizing they were naked. When the world corrupted, it all corrupted including all the animals and plants, dirt, rocks and even the atoms. Thorns and prickles are a direct result of the fall.

Certain behaviors may have taken time and circumstance, but they only occurred because the animal was corrupted from its original intended purpose.
If not I doubt God would have included animals within his warning to Noah.
Genesis 9
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man.