How did the universe come into existence?

[ToddNotTodd]

Not according to Aristotle's Laws of Logic, it is a corollary of the law of Causality.

Nooooo...

Aristotle didn't include that. Authors after Aristotle proposed a law of sufficient reason. But like I said earlier, isn't without controversy, and became the principle of sufficient reason.

 

[Aman777]

Aman777 said: ↑
Sure it is UNLESS you can tell us how long, gradual, periods of time, and numerous mutations, with NO direction, hit the jackpot and magically changed Apes into Humans. You cannot and neither can ANY other evolutionist. What it demonstrates is that evolutionists don't believe God since they THINK they are smarter than God.

Two points:

1) This is a textbook argument from ignorance fallacy. The fact I could or could not prove an alternate idea is irrelevant to your claim being true. You need to prove your claim, if you can't then we have no reason to accept it.

That is a hypocritical view from those who force teach the ToE to children with NO evidence of their false assumption, which is not quickly refuted (proven wrong).

*** 2) Humans are apes, and we can prove that with genetics.

False, since Adam was made the 3rd Day BEFORE the plants herbs and rain Gen 2:4-7 which was on another world before the beginning of our Cosmos. The reason today's scientists ASSUME they have linked Apes with Humans is they don't know that Noah brought Adam's unique superior intelligence to this planet of Apes.

Noah's grandsons were also aboard the Ark but not yet born. When they grew up there were NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) for them to marry. They married and produced hybrid Humans with the superior intelligence, which ONLY God and Adam, have, Gen 3:22 with the descendants of the sons of God or what Science classifies as Prehistoric people. There were about a Million here when the Ark arrived and now, Eleven thousand years later, hybrid Humans number more than 7 Billion alive today and ALL of them have inherited the DNA of the common ancestor of Apes because Noah's sons had children with them. Gen 6:4

*** There's no evidence the flood happened, and plenty of evidence that it didn't.

It's because the traditional theology of ancient men did NOT agree with today's increased knowledge and discoveries in the last days. It still doesn't so we must read Scripture for what it says instead of what some ancient man of 3k years ago thought it said.

The flood is a good example. Here's God's Truth of the flood. Eleven thousand years ago, Adam's firmament or boundary of his small world, had its windows on high opened and it rained for 40 days and nights and the firmament began to sink. As it sank in Lake Van, Turkey, it released the 450 foot long Ark into our world/biosphere, and Humanity on planet Earth can be traced to the first Humans (descendants of Adam) arrival on our Planet of the common ancestor of Apes EXACTLY as God told us in Genesis. God's Truth is the Truth in every way. The ToE doesn't agree with God's Truth NOR the History of Human civilization on our Earth.

 

[Uber Genius]

I am aware of only 2 possible answers to this question.

1) A random chance happening.
2) A Superior Being that had the knowledge to create.

The question is: Is there any other possible ways the universe could have come into existence besides the 2 ways that I have given above?

Thank you for your response.

While traditional causal accounts in science are limited to chance, necessity and agency (forensic sciences, archeology, etc.)

We are trying to get at an explanatory ultimate (as opposed to an infinite causal regress), that explains the origin of space, time, matter, and energy. That includes laws of physics! So no necessity is possible.

And chance requires something to work on something else. The 2500 year old philosophical first principle still stands, "ex nihilo nihil fit." Namely, "Out of nothing, nothing comes."

No chance of chance working on nothing!

 

[Dave Ellis]

That is a hypocritical view from those who force teach the ToE to children with NO evidence of their false assumption, which is not quickly refuted (proven wrong).

Teaching demonstrable science in a science class is not an unreasonable thing to do. And yes, there's mountains of evidence for the theory of evolution.

*** 2) Humans are apes, and we can prove that with genetics.

False, since Adam was made the 3rd Day BEFORE the plants herbs and rain Gen 2:4-7 which was on another world before the beginning of our Cosmos. The reason today's scientists ASSUME they have linked Apes with Humans is they don't know that Noah brought Adam's unique superior intelligence to this planet of Apes.

Noah's grandsons were also aboard the Ark but not yet born. When they grew up there were NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) for them to marry. They married and produced hybrid Humans with the superior intelligence, which ONLY God and Adam, have, Gen 3:22 with the descendants of the sons of God or what Science classifies as Prehistoric people. There were about a Million here when the Ark arrived and now, Eleven thousand years later, hybrid Humans number more than 7 Billion alive today and ALL of them have inherited the DNA of the common ancestor of Apes because Noah's sons had children with them. Gen 6:4

Again, do you have any evidence at all to back your claims? All you do is spout nonsense and don't provide anything at all to back it up.

Just because you think the bible says something doesn't make that thing true. You need to prove it.

It's because the traditional theology of ancient men did NOT agree with today's increased knowledge and discoveries in the last days. It still doesn't so we must read Scripture for what it says instead of what some ancient man of 3k years ago thought it said.

Yes, but the problem is there were thousands and thousands of years before that time when humans not only didn't worship Yahweh, nobody was even aware of him because humans had not yet invented him. The proto-Jews worshipped a pantheon of Gods, headed up by the supreme god El. Monotheism didn't fully take hold until a couple hundred years before the time of Jesus.

The flood is a good example. Here's God's Truth of the flood. Eleven thousand years ago, Adam's firmament or boundary of his small world, had its windows on high opened and it rained for 40 days and nights and the firmament began to sink. As it sank in Lake Van, Turkey, it released the 450 foot long Ark into our world/biosphere, and Humanity on planet Earth can be traced to the first Humans (descendants of Adam) arrival on our Planet of the common ancestor of Apes EXACTLY as God told us in Genesis. God's Truth is the Truth in every way. The ToE doesn't agree with God's Truth NOR the History of Human civilization on our Earth.

That literally makes no sense at all. Do you know what a firmament is?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Most of the evidence points to the universe being an effect. Things that have a beginning and/or changes is an effect. The BB theory has confirmed that these are characteristics of the universe.

de: Not necessarily, cause and effect is temporal in nature and applies to things within the universe. From what we can tell time itself started with the big bang. You can't have cause and effect without time. If the big bang is the effect, there is no "before" for a cause to exist in.

You can't apply the rules that govern this universe onto whatever exists outside of the universe. There may be something like time that exists outside of this universe, or the laws of physics may be wildly different. We have no idea.

No, causality is a metaphysical law so it applies to non-physical entities also. In addition, research by Andrew Strominger has determined that there is evidence for a second dimension of time. If necessary, God could cause events from that time dimension to create ours.

↑

ed: According to logic the cause of the universe must be transcendent to the universe it cannot be part of the effect. This is true of the Christian God.

de: It's also true of Keith, the transcendent universe creating rhinoceros.

No, rhinos are physical beings therefore requiring space to exist, therefore it would still be part of the universe, ie the effect. In addition, no one claims to have had a relationship with it so that is strong evidence it doesn't exist among other problems.

ed: Also, purposes exist in the universe, such as eyes for seeing and ears for hearing. Only a personal being can create purposes, therefore the cause of the universe is personal.

de: You're asserting purpose where there's no apparent purpose. Just because you can see with your eyes doesn't mean they were designed purposefully to see. Evidence strongly suggests they evolved naturally.

No, that doesn't make any sense, that is like saying just because a car exists doesn't mean that it was designed purposely to drive. And actually the purpose is pretty apparent for both eyes and cars.

↑

ed: Also, the universe is diversity within a unity, just like the Triune Christian God. When someone creates something there are characteristics of the creator/designer that point to the identity of that creator or designer. So that diversity within a unity points to the Christian God as the creator of this universe.

de: So, because the universe has a lot of stuff in it, that points to the trinity?

No, the universe is made up of galaxies, which is the unity, and yet each galaxy is different, that is the diversity and this principle goes all the way down to atoms. Each galaxy is made up of stars, the unity, and yet each star is different, the diversity. In fact this concept is what produced the theory of evolution. There are mammals, the unity and yet different kinds of mammals, the diversity, for example.

de: That's one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard on here. What about polytheistic religions? There's lots of gods, more than just the three in one deal with Christianity. That could account for far more diversity. On the other hand, perhaps Keith the transcendent universe creating rhinoceros took interior decorating in universe creating college, and simply wanted a lot of variety in his design to add a little flair.
flair.

No, polytheism is multiple different gods, with no unity, therefore they are unlikely to be this universes cause. And Keith is a single rhino, a unity, with no diversity, there again unlikely to be the creator of this universe. He also has other problems as I stated above.

 

[Aman777]

That literally makes no sense at all. Do you know what a firmament is?

Adam's firmament, which God called Heaven, was the first Heaven and it was made on the 2nd Day BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos. Gen 1:6-8 It was the boundary of Adam's small world and contained Adam's FLAT earth and protected the interior of the firmament from the WATER into which it was placed. Gen 1:7 Adam's firmament was like metal, beaten out and it was several MILES in diameter and is still at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.

Adam's firmament is the MOST valuable treasure on Planet Earth and is worth much more than its weight in Gold. I've left messages for TV Evangelists with many millions of dollars stored up just waiting to PROVE that God's Holy Word is the Truth in these last days before Jesus returns. God Bless you

 

[Ed1wolf]

So it applies to God, too?

Yes, but He is not an effect.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Adam's firmament, which God called Heaven, was the first Heaven and it was made on the 2nd Day BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos. Gen 1:6-8 It was the boundary of Adam's small world and contained Adam's FLAT earth and protected the interior of the firmament from the WATER into which it was placed. Gen 1:7 Adam's firmament was like metal, beaten out and it was several MILES in diameter and is still at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.

Adam's firmament is the MOST valuable treasure on Planet Earth and is worth much more than its weight in Gold. I've left messages for TV Evangelists with many millions of dollars stored up just waiting to PROVE that God's Holy Word is the Truth in these last days before Jesus returns. God Bless you

I have never heard such an unorthodox interpretation especially coming from a Baptist. Actually the revelation from God's two books, nature and the bible point to the firmament being the open atmosphere. And the Hebrew word can mean open expanse. No metal there.

 

[quatona]

Yes, but He is not an effect.

And you determine what is an effect and what isn´t exactly how?

 

[Aman777]

Aman777 said: ↑
Adam's firmament, which God called Heaven, was the first Heaven and it was made on the 2nd Day BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos. Gen 1:6-8 It was the boundary of Adam's small world and contained Adam's FLAT earth and protected the interior of the firmament from the WATER into which it was placed. Gen 1:7 Adam's firmament was like metal, beaten out and it was several MILES in diameter and is still at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.

I have never heard such an unorthodox interpretation especially coming from a Baptist. Actually the revelation from God's two books, nature and the bible point to the firmament being the open atmosphere. And the Hebrew word can mean open expanse. No metal there.

I'm an Independent Baptist, like Brother Lester Roloff, who was the greatest man I have ever known. Here is the Hebrew word and it's meaning:

רָקַע râqaʻ, raw-kah'; a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

The solid firmament or boundary of Adam's universe contained Adam's Earth inside. The firmament protected Adam's Earth from the water which completely surrounded Adam's Earth. Your view is that of a theologian who lived thousands of years before Science and education. Put ANY solid firmament (ie. ball) in the midst of the water and you too can divide the waters from the waters, and see that it indeed, has water ABOVE and BELOW it. Gen 1:6-7 Amen?

 

[Dave Ellis]

No, causality is a metaphysical law so it applies to non-physical entities also. In addition, research by Andrew Strominger has determined that there is evidence for a second dimension of time. If necessary, God could cause events from that time dimension to create ours.

A metaphysical law? I don't suppose you can prove that claim, can you?

No, rhinos are physical beings therefore requiring space to exist, therefore it would still be part of the universe, ie the effect. In addition, no one claims to have had a relationship with it so that is strong evidence it doesn't exist among other problems.

This is a transcendent rhino though, not a regular rhino. Keith is a rather extraordinary fellow, you see.

No, that doesn't make any sense, that is like saying just because a car exists doesn't mean that it was designed purposely to drive. And actually the purpose is pretty apparent for both eyes and cars.

No, that's not what I said. We built cars to drive them. Eyes and ears are naturally occurring though, there's no reason to believe they were designed.

No, the universe is made up of galaxies, which is the unity, and yet each galaxy is different, that is the diversity and this principle goes all the way down to atoms. Each galaxy is made up of stars, the unity, and yet each star is different, the diversity. In fact this concept is what produced the theory of evolution. There are mammals, the unity and yet different kinds of mammals, the diversity, for example.

No, polytheism is multiple different gods, with no unity, therefore they are unlikely to be this universes cause. And Keith is a single rhino, a unity, with no diversity, there again unlikely to be the creator of this universe. He also has other problems as I stated above.

Again, it's a nonsensical argument. Polytheism has multiple gods under a single pantheon. That's diversity and unity. Keith could have multiple personality disorder, same thing.

And regardless, just because there's a lot of stuff in the universe doesn't mean it was created by a diverse being, or designed by a being at all. Your argument is a full on non sequitur.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Aman777 said: ↑
Adam's firmament, which God called Heaven, was the first Heaven and it was made on the 2nd Day BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos. Gen 1:6-8 It was the boundary of Adam's small world and contained Adam's FLAT earth and protected the interior of the firmament from the WATER into which it was placed. Gen 1:7 Adam's firmament was like metal, beaten out and it was several MILES in diameter and is still at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.

Cool story, bro.

Again, can you prove that?

 

[Aman777]

Cool story, bro.

Again, can you prove that?

Sure. Look at the Northern section of the Lake and tell us WHAT caused the Largest Spiral land masses on Earth, which are MILES in diameter. Hint: something is under the Spirals. Watch this short video:

 

[Ed1wolf]

Please do tell me more about how you have learned about the nature of laws outside of our universe.

It is called logical reasoning. At one time we were not sure if the laws of logic applied to outer space, but we assumed they did, which is a logical assumption, then eventually we started the space program

 

[Ed1wolf]

Nooooo...

Aristotle didn't include that. Authors after Aristotle proposed a law of sufficient reason. But like I said earlier, isn't without controversy, and became the principle of sufficient reason.

No, Aristotle had Six causes. Material Cause, Formal Cause, Final Cause, Instrumental Cause, Efficient cause, and the one we are referring to Sufficient Cause. Read "Aristotle: Selections" Edited by W. D. Ross.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Sure. Look at the Northern section of the Lake and tell us WHAT caused the Largest Spiral land masses on Earth, which are MILES in diameter. Hint: something is under the Spirals. Watch this short video:

My guess is a volcanic crater or phytoplankton spiral. I have no idea though.

What is it?

 

[Dave Ellis]

It is called logical reasoning. At one time we were not sure if the laws of logic applied to outer space, but we assumed they did, which is a logical assumption, then eventually we started the space program

Outer space is part of the universe, and we have every reason to believe physics apply there due to observed planetary motion, etc.

The laws of logic would likely apply everywhere, however logic would dictate that the physics that govern this universe don't necessarily govern what's outside of this universe, if there is such a place.

If time doesn't operate in the way we know, cause and effect may not work the same way.

 

[Aman777]

My guess is a volcanic crater or phytoplankton spiral. I have no idea though.

What is it?

It is the bottom part of Adam's solid firmament, which completely enclosed Adam's Earth. It was a Flat Earth only 22.5 feet above sea level on it's highest mountain. Gen 7:20 It had but 4 Rivers and they all came from a single source in the Garden of Eden. Gen 2:10 It had it's own Biosphere and was totally self sufficient AND it was transportable. God put Adam's firmament completely under water, with water above and below it. Gen 1:6-7

As the solid firmament sank after the windows on high were opened Isa 24:18 It rained for 40 days and nights, Gen 7:12 The bottom of Adam's firmament began to fill with water and sink, releasing the covered 450 ft. Ark into Lake Van, Turkey 11k years ago. Human (Adam's descendants) civilization arrived for the first time on our planet of the common ancestor of Apes. History agrees and documents this event in the mountains of Ararat exactly as God told us in Gen 8:4.
Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

Today, under 11k years of volcanic sediment the obviously bowl shaped firmament awaits discovery. The Spirals are by far, the LARGEST spiral land masses on our Planet and the solid firmament is evidence of life from beyond our Cosmos, made BEFORE the beginning of our Universe. It's miles in diameter and worth more than its enormous weight in Gold. Tell the TV Evangelists how much it's worth and they will beat a path to God's empirical (testable) evidence which NO man can refute. Amen?

 

[Dave Ellis]

It is the bottom part of Adam's solid firmament, which completely enclosed Adam's Earth. It was a Flat Earth only 22.5 feet above sea level on it's highest mountain. Gen 7:20 It had but 4 Rivers and they all came from a single source in the Garden of Eden. Gen 2:10 It had it's own Biosphere and was totally self sufficient AND it was transportable. God put Adam's firmament completely under water, with water above and below it. Gen 1:6-7

As the solid firmament sank after the windows on high were opened Isa 24:18 It rained for 40 days and nights, Gen 7:12 The bottom of Adam's firmament began to fill with water and sink, releasing the covered 450 ft. Ark into Lake Van, Turkey 11k years ago. Human (Adam's descendants) civilization arrived for the first time on our planet of the common ancestor of Apes. History agrees and documents this event in the mountains of Ararat exactly as God told us in Gen 8:4.
Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

Today, under 11k years of volcanic sediment the obviously bowl shaped firmament awaits discovery. The Spirals are by far, the LARGEST spiral land masses on our Planet and the solid firmament is evidence of life from beyond our Cosmos, made BEFORE the beginning of our Universe. It's miles in diameter and worth more than its enormous weight in Gold. Tell the TV Evangelists how much it's worth and they will beat a path to God's empirical (testable) evidence which NO man can refute. Amen?

That's a rather wild claim. Can you prove that?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Aman777 said: ↑
Adam's firmament, which God called Heaven, was the first Heaven and it was made on the 2nd Day BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos. Gen 1:6-8 It was the boundary of Adam's small world and contained Adam's FLAT earth and protected the interior of the firmament from the WATER into which it was placed. Gen 1:7 Adam's firmament was like metal, beaten out and it was several MILES in diameter and is still at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.



I'm an Independent Baptist, like Brother Lester Roloff, who was the greatest man I have ever known. Here is the Hebrew word and it's meaning:

רָקַע râqaʻ, raw-kah'; a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

The solid firmament or boundary of Adam's universe contained Adam's Earth inside. The firmament protected Adam's Earth from the water which completely surrounded Adam's Earth. Your view is that of a theologian who lived thousands of years before Science and education. Put ANY solid firmament (ie. ball) in the midst of the water and you too can divide the waters from the waters, and see that it indeed, has water ABOVE and BELOW it. Gen 1:6-7 Amen?

Yes, that is one definition, but also according to the "Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament" it can mean an open expanse and tied to the word in verse 8 , "shayayim" it usually means "sky". And the separation between the waters above and below is an ancient Hebrew reference to the Troposphere. This is referring to area between the clouds above and the seas below. So I cant say "Amen" to this interpretation brother in Christ. There is no evidence biblically or scientifically that there were two separate earths or universes, one being Adams and one being ours. Also, there is no evidence that a giant piece of metal is in the bottom of that lake. Sorry bro.