How did the universe come into existence?

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Dave Ellis

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There was a person that was caught on a camera talking to a conservative that said he was paid by the dnc to carry out protests at Trump's rallys. So he went out and brought in a bunch of crazies and harrassed people going to Trumps speeches.

It would not be a large jump to think the dnc is involved in campus protests of conservative speakers at all.

If the entire administration are democrats, then there could certainly be phone calls made to the dnc for instructions. I have no evidence, I am a very small person with no access, but a flaming liberal college president certainly has access.

I believe it is the primal goal of the dnc to bring down Pres. Trump and the consevative Republican party at all cost, and by any means. No holds barred.

Well at least you admit you have no evidence for your claims.

As such, I'll dismiss your claims out of hand. Come back when you have something other than conspiracy theories.
 
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Aman777

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Aman777 said:
According to the changeable consensus of godless men who reject God's Truth of the Creation as shown in Genesis. God's taxonomy is NOT changeable. Amen?

What does that even mean?

Science is the consensus of men who always leave room for change in their Theories because they know in advance that their Theories are going to change when their errors are shown. These same "brilliant men" reject God's Truth of the Creation so they try to dismiss His Holy Word as allegory, poetry or for some other godless reason. Just because the current consensus of mortal men agrees, does NOT mean that the Truth has been found. God's Truth changes NOT since it was correct the first time, no matter what the consensus teaches today. God Bless you
 
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Peter1000

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http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/cephschool/CephalopodVision.pdf

Have at it



Evolution doesn't say one animal will transition into a different family of animal. The fact that you'd even raise that point shows that you don't understand the most basic concepts behind evolution.

It's a tree. Species spawn subspieces all on the same branch. You don't get species all of a sudden jumping to another branch.
You mean some fish did not eventually crawl out of the waters and evolve into an amphibian? I thought the theory of evolution described the path for the existence of all plants and animals that live on the earth?

Remember there was once a time on earth that only 1 celled bacteria existed. I thought the theory of evolution explained how we got from 1 celled bacteria to multi-celled birds, for instance? Am I wrong, and if so, please tell me where I got off the right path. I will add that theoretically it took a million years or so, but it happened. Let me know.

If some fish did not eventually crawl out of the waters and evolve into amphibians, please explain how science explains how amphibians came about? Keep it to a few paragraphs though.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Science is the consensus of men who always leave room for change in their Theories because they know in advance that their Theories are going to change when their errors are shown. These same "brilliant men" reject God's Truth of the Creation so they try to dismiss His Holy Word as allegory, poetry or for some other godless reason. Just because the current consensus of mortal men agrees, does NOT mean that the Truth has been found. God's Truth changes NOT since it was correct the first time, no matter what the consensus teaches today. God Bless you

No, not really... Scientists provide the best explanation possible given the available evidence.

While our scientific discoveries can be refined and corrected through further research and evidence, very rarely is an entire field of science thrown out the window entirely. The vast majority of time the findings will be tweaked and improved.

However, that's the strength of science. It changes and improves over time with evidence. I'm fairly surprised you think a system that works and continually improves is a bad thing. Contrast that with the bible which is just as wrong now as when it was written, and it'll be equally wrong until the end of time.
 
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Aman777

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No, not really... Scientists provide the best explanation possible given the available evidence.

While our scientific discoveries can be refined and corrected through further research and evidence, very rarely is an entire field of science thrown out the window entirely. The vast majority of time the findings will be tweaked and improved.

However, that's the strength of science. It changes and improves over time with evidence. I'm fairly surprised you think a system that works and continually improves is a bad thing. Contrast that with the bible which is just as wrong now as when it was written, and it'll be equally wrong until the end of time.

False. What is apparent is that you cannot understand the Bible. The Bible tells us that unbelievers will see God's Truth as foolishness. 1Co 2:14 As we come closer to the end, the scientific discoveries of the last days, will make believers out of everyone except the most hateful and willingly ignorant. 2Pet3:3 God Bless you
 
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Peter1000

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Well at least you admit you have no evidence for your claims.

As such, I'll dismiss your claims out of hand. Come back when you have something other than conspiracy theories.
No, just because I haven't got evidence does not mean they are not involved. It is only that I do not have evidence. We need some more hacking and leaks to show the US just what kind of people the dnc are. It is well within their ethics to push and even fund these kinds of activities.
 
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Dave Ellis

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You mean some fish did not eventually crawl out of the waters and evolve into an amphibian? I thought the theory of evolution described the path for the existence of all plants and animals that live on the earth?

Remember there was once a time on earth that only 1 celled bacteria existed. I thought the theory of evolution explained how we got from 1 celled bacteria to multi-celled birds, for instance? Am I wrong, and if so, please tell me where I got off the right path. I will add that theoretically it took a million years or so, but it happened. Let me know.

If some fish did not eventually crawl out of the waters and evolve into amphibians, please explain how science explains how amphibians came about? Keep it to a few paragraphs though.

You don't quite have it right here....

Tetrapods evolved from the clade of vertebrates known as Tetrapodomorpha. Tetrapodomorpha evolved from the Sarcopterygii which were an early form of lobe finned fish. Here's the basic tree:

700px-Evolutionary_tree.JPG



As you can see, things branch off. Humans are included in the Mammal category, however humans are also Amniotes, Tetrapods, Sarcopterygians, Osteichthyes, Gnathostomes and Vetebrates.

To take it further from our class of Mammals, our order is Primates, Suborder is Haplorhini, family is Hominidae, Genus is Homo and our species is Homo Sapiens.

If a subspecies of humans were ever to evolve, they'd still fit into all of the above categories. They would just be another branch on the tree diverging from the main Homo Sapiens line. You can not have a new species not fit into their larger classifications.

So, it's impossible for a mammal to evolve into an amphibian. Those are two separate branches. Likewise Mammals can't evolve into reptiles or birds. However, they can evolve into new species of mammals.

Reptiles, birds and mammals all find a common ancestor with one of the amniotes. As such, all three groups are Amniotes, and any new species that evolves from a reptile, bird or mammal will be an amniote. On a larger scale, they'll also be a vertebrate. Do you see how it works?

As such a modern day fish could never evolve into an amphibian. Those lines diverged millions of years ago. Amphibians and modern fish do share a common ancestor in the past though.
 
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Dave Ellis

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False. What is apparent is that you cannot understand the Bible. The Bible tells us that unbelievers will see God's Truth as foolishness. 1Co 2:14 As we come closer to the end, the scientific discoveries of the last days, will make believers out of everyone except the most hateful and willingly ignorant. 2Pet3:3 God Bless you

I've read and understood the bible. Some parts have good teachings, other parts have bad teachings. The scientific claims more often than not are woefully wrong though.

There's no reason to believe it's anything more than an ancient book of mythology.
 
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Dave Ellis

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No, just because I haven't got evidence does not mean they are not involved. It is only that I do not have evidence. We need some more hacking and leaks to show the US just what kind of people the dnc are. It is well within their ethics to push and even fund these kinds of activities.

This is a textbook argument from ignorance fallacy. If you do not have evidence, you by definition have no reason to believe your own claim.

Go find evidence, and then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then you only have conspiracy theories.
 
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Aman777

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I've read and understood the bible. Some parts have good teachings, other parts have bad teachings. The scientific claims more often than not are woefully wrong though.

How do you know? God tells us that you cannot understand the Bible and every day you demonstrate that to those of us who can. Since the Holy Spirit IS the Author of ALL of the Bible, do you think it's blasphemy/slander to claim that the Spirit of Truth is woefully wrong? A good example is the Fact that you have not refuted a single word in Scripture yet you insist that you know more than God, with your attitude. Amen?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Causality is a corollary of the law of contradiction. And it is a law of logic itself according to "Aristotle: Selections" edited by W. D. Ross.

de: No it's not, at best it's a corollary of identity. However, we're still talking apples and oranges. You're applying rules that govern inside the universe to the universe itself.

It should be plainly obvious that something like cause and effect is temporal in nature. You need a flow of time for an effect to happen after a cause. If time started with the big bang, there is no "before" for a cause to exist in. As such, cause and effect break down because there is no time for cause and effect to occur in.
There are three possible answers to this, first Time appears to be just relative positions of objects in space, therefore it has no restricting power over cause and effect. Second, the concept of contingency does not need time. If something is contingent and the universe definitely appears to be contingent then something exists that the universe depends on for its existence. A third possible answer is that there is evidence that there is more than one time dimension in existence (check out Andrew Strominger), therefore God could have operated from another time dimension to create our universe.


ed: This is just one thread of many more threads of evidence as I have explained.

de: Except this does not count as evidence. They're simply examples of fallacious reasoning.
You have yet to demonstrate that they are fallacious.


ed: Read the Bible. They have been shown to be accurate thru many archaeological discoveries. I am not saying I can PROVE it. My point is just that there is historical evidence for the Christian God.

de: I have read the bible. The fact that real cities are mentioned in the bible doesn't mean god is real. They were writing stories about the area that they live in, of course they'd refer to real cities.

The same way Spiderman is set in New York City. If a thousand years from now archaeologists dug up parts of New York, would that provide evidence for the existence of Spiderman just because the story is set in a real place?

Of course not, because no one has claimed that Spider-Man is real and there is no evidence that the events recorded in near the time that the events occurred. With the bible there is such evidence. It is much more than just that real cities were written about. There is also linguistic characteristics that point to the time period in which the events occurred.

de: And besides, you said the scriptures could have only been done by a god. Are you saying the people of the time were incapable of writing a story about the city they lived in and the surrounding towns and countries?

No, I said the scriptures were written by ancient humans inspired by God. Yes, that is what they did, they wrote histories about the cities they lived in and the surrounding towns and countries and recorded the things that God did at that time.


ed: Fraid so. And the majority of scholars believe He existed. Besides Josephus and others, there is also I Corinthians 15:3-5, where Paul quotes a Pre-Pauline (and therefore independent of the NT) hymn that many scholars believe was composed within 5 years of the resurrection.

de: Josephus was not a contemporary, and virtually all scholars agree his writings were edited by later Christian scribes to include the small parts about Jesus.

He was alive when there were still some of the disciples were still alive and others would had seen Christ in person. Many scholars including non-Christian scholars believe that the editing only included the parts that made theological claims about Jesus, the rest is considered authentic, and an overwhelming majority of scholars agree that his statements about James, Jesus' brother, were not added by Christian scribes. And there are other independent sources for His existence. So all these threads of independent sources in combination with the gospels confirm His existence.

de: The bible also can not be used as evidence for the bible. Even with that, quoting a hymn doesn't prove anything
No, the ancient hymn predates the NT so technically it was not part of the bible. We know that the ancient jews used hymns to help to remember their history and pass it on orally, this is well known among scholars and has been shown to be a very accurate way to transmit historical events especially since many secular scholars agree that it was composed less than 5 years after the resurrection.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
That is true of most religions but not Christianity and Christian morality. As I stated before Western Civilization was primarily founded on Christian moral principles. Principles such as those in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights of the US.

de: Complete and utter nonsense. Christianity has no good moral principles that are completely unique to Christianity, and couldn't be found in cultures that predated Christianity.

I didn't say that most of them were, but that is where the founders of Western Civilization got most of those principles from because only Christianity provided a rational foundation for them. There are some principles that are unique to Christianity however, "love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you." Also, the principle of intrinsic objective human value and rights.

de: If the Christians came up with a set of moral ideas that they invented, you can claim it as christian morality. If they have the same basic moral principles as any other culture before or since then, then you have secular morality.

The reason why most human cultures have similar basic moralities to Christian morality is that all humans are created in the image of the Christian God. But only Christianity provides an objectively rational basis for morality.

de: I'd argue the principles that are unique to Christianity are the ones that need to be done away with, as they are ultimately harmful.

You would not like a world without the principles that are unique to Christianity especially the intrinsic value of all of human life. Without that principle, we would still have slavery among other things.


ed: While Europe has become more secular it still borrows from its Christian past on many of these principles, though in the areas of free speech, the right to life for humans of all ages including the extremely young, and property rights, they have weakened and started to abandon these.

de; There is no right to free speech in christian scriptures, and in many if not all christian theocracies free speech was never part of the law. In fact, speaking out against the church in many cases would lead to your torture or execution.

Fraid so, Christ and the disciples never stopped pagans and gentiles from speaking about their beliefs in fact they heartily encouraged it by debating with them. Read about Paul at Mars Hill and etc. And they are our examples as Christians.

de: Likewise, there is no right to life spelled out in christian scripture. There is a prohibition against murder, however apart from that people are getting killed all over the place in the bible, many times on the command of god himself.

No, the bible teaches from a legal perspective that all innocent humans have the right to life, but guilty criminals especially murderers forfeit that right. From a spiritual perspective, all humans deserve death. So when God decides that your time on earth is up, He will take you. He has that perogative as Judge of the Universe.


ed: This can also be seen happening in the US especially in the more secular Democratic party. They have started to limit free speech especially on college campuses, and freedom of religion was starting to be restricted under the Obama Administration.

de: The democratic party has not been responsible for any limitation of speech on a college campus. Some colleges cancelled talks due to protests, however the democratic party is completely unrelated to the operation or management of those institutions.

No, there is evidence that many of the protests have been funded by large Democrat donors like George Soros.

de: Lastly, your claim that freedom of religion was starting to be restricted under the Obama administration is absurd. Can you provide a single example of someone not being allowed to belong to a religion of their choice or worship as they want due to one of Obama's actions?

I am referring to the exercise clause, where Catholic entities have been forced to endorse behaviors like using contraceptives and giving children for adoption to homosexual couples by the Obama Adminstration..

 
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Dave Ellis

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How do you know? God tells us that you cannot understand the Bible and every day you demonstrate that to those of us who can. Since the Holy Spirit IS the Author of ALL of the Bible, do you think it's blasphemy/slander to claim that the Spirit of Truth is woefully wrong? A good example is the Fact that you have not refuted a single word in Scripture yet you insist that you know more than God, with your attitude. Amen?

The evidence shows that bronze to iron age humans wrote the bible, not the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit exists and is actually responsible, I'd have hoped it was by far a better, more knowledgeable author....

There is plenty in the bible that is evidently not true, I've already talked about Creation and the Flood. The bible is clearly wrong on those topics.
 
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Aman777

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The evidence shows that bronze to iron age humans wrote the bible, not the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit exists and is actually responsible, I'd have hoped it was by far a better, more knowledgeable author....

There is plenty in the bible that is evidently not true, I've already talked about Creation and the Flood. The bible is clearly wrong on those topics.

Be more specific and show us where the Holy Spirit's version of Creation is in error or show us the true story of the flood which totally destroyed Adam's world. Tell us where to find the physical empirical testable evidence of life BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos which is clearly shown in Genesis. I don't think you can since you obviously cannot understand the Bible. God Bless you
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: And of course, the right of life of the unborn. Purely secular countries like the early French Republic, Nazi Germany, and all the Communist countries have much less freedoms and treat life much more cheaply than nations who were founded on Christian principles.

de: Nazi Germany was not a secular country. For example, one of the first things Hitler did while in office was turn over control of the schools to the Catholic Church. Likewise, Hitler was a self professed Catholic, and even if you dispute that you can't argue that well over 90% of the German population identified as Christian at the time.

The government acted in accord with secular super humanistic principles. They believed that only a certain race of humans deserved rights and protection, ie Aryans, whom they believed were superhumans. Unlike nations founded on Christian principles that believe that all humans of all races deserve basic human rights as enumerated in the DOI and the Bill of Rights of America. Hitler hated Christianity. And most of the population of Germany was unorthodox liberal Christians. Liberal theology originated in Germany about 150 years prior to WWII. So by the time of WWII it had pretty much taken over the Lutheran church and so they no longer believed in the moral absolutes of the Bible and were able to rationalize almost any immorality such as the mass slaughter of human beings who were no longer considered made in the image of God and of infinite worth and value. And there was some entrance of this theology into the Catholic seminaries undermining their belief in the inerrancy the bible and Gods moral law though not as extensively as the Lutheran church.

de: I do notice however you leave out modern day secular countries... like the Scandinavian countries, Modern Germany, France, Australia, Canada and the United States itself. The fact they are secular is one reason why they have been successful. Show me one theocracy which has a good human rights record.

No, I did mention them. I said that the modern secular nations of Europe borrowed from their Christian heritage many of the moral principles of Christianity, such as the concept of human rights and etc. And the US is still in many ways living off its Judeo-Christian theistic founding. While not technically a theocracy the US was founded on many of the moral principles of the Biblical God. That is what the phrase "the laws of Nature and Nature's God" refers to. The first phrase refers to natural law, the second phrase refers to Biblical law. All of the founders even the non-Christians believed that God had revealed His moral laws in the Bible. So all nations that have been founded on these Christian principles generally have good human rights records except in the last 40 years not so good for the unborn.


ed: Well, that may not be the best analogy. A better analogy would be a case where there are two email addresses, one has 2000 emails in it, the other has only one. Which one is most likely to a real person with an email account?

de: There's not enough evidence either way to know based on what you gave me.

There is a more likely chance that an active email address is being used by real person than a very inactive address.


ed: Fraid so, if you look at the passages in the original Greek and Hebrew and also with the understanding that God has revealed some of His truths in His other book, Nature, it can be shown quite easily that the Bible DOES teach these things about the universe they are plainly within the meanings of the greek and Hebrew.

de: Sure, if you reinterpret them to mean what you want.

None of these interpretations go outside the literal definitions of the original greek and Hebrew words. But we do reinterpret them based on Gods other book, nature which He has told us is a source of knowledge about Him.


ed: Only highly speculative evidence, he did not present a single piece of empirically observed evidence of these changes or even any process that could cause these huge changes.

de: It's a five minute youtube clip, not a scientific paper or lecture. You asked how it happened and I showed you a clip with a brief overview. If you really think all of the evidence we have was thrown into that clip, I'm not really sure what to say to you.

No, the reason he doesn't cover any empirically observed evidence is because there is none. It is all done by the magical force known as Time. He believes with enough of that magic literally anything can happen, but this is false assumption.


ed: How do archaeologists determine that a human made the scraper rock or an arrowhead and they are not just naturally made rocks shaped by natural processes.

de: Because we can identify things that we make, and we contrast them with nature.

You are assuming what we are trying to prove. Basically how they do it, is to look to see if it appears to have a purpose and have been created purposefully. And the universe has both such things in it.

de: If nature was designed, then there would be no contrast to differentiate anything. You'd have intelligently designed rocks, intelligently designed sand, trees, plants and everything else. An intelligently designed arrowhead would blend in, we couldn't tell if it was us or god that make it. As such, it would simply appear as a natural formation.

No, see above about purpose. While it is not an infallible criteria, it generally works.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Do we really have examples of organs in the fossil record?
In a few cases and we have done endocasts of brains in skulls that were preserved, but mostly I am referring to body structures, limbs and etc.
 
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Peter1000

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You don't quite have it right here....

I'm not sure what part I don't quite have it right.

I said a fish crawled out of the water and turned into an amphibian. Your tree proves that I am right.
1) Osteichthyes (ray finned fish)
2) Sarcopterygians (lobe finned fish)
3) Tetrapod (amphibian)
As odd as it seems, they must all be on the same branch.

You say that as such, a modern day fish could never evolve into an amphibian. But you admit that millions of years ago that happened. Time has a tendancy to blurr the picture and is the one central theme of the evolutionist/atheist.

Sorry, but you are stuck with: every animal that we know today came from a 1 celled bacteria. Fish to amphibian was simple, and if it can't happen today, then I have no reason to think that it happened millions of years ago. The reason that you give me for it not happening today, is probably the reason I would propose that it did not happen earlier.

What happened millions of years ago that could not happen today?

Has evolution stopped?
 
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Dave Ellis

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There are three possible answers to this, first Time appears to be just relative positions of objects in space, therefore it has no restricting power over cause and effect.

That makes no sense at all.... You need a flow of time in order to have cause and effect.

Second, the concept of contingency does not need time. If something is contingent and the universe definitely appears to be contingent then something exists that the universe depends on for its existence.

How would you demonstrate that?

A third possible answer is that there is evidence that there is more than one time dimension in existence (check out Andrew Strominger), therefore God could have operated from another time dimension to create our universe.

Sure, however that also opens the possibility of a multiverse where our universe was created by non-supernatural means.

You have yet to demonstrate that they are fallacious.

You're arguing that I haven't demonstrated that a fallacious appeal to popularity is fallacious? Or that cherry picking data isn't fallacious either?

Of course not, because no one has claimed that Spider-Man is real and there is no evidence that the events recorded in near the time that the events occurred. With the bible there is such evidence. It is much more than just that real cities were written about. There is also linguistic characteristics that point to the time period in which the events occurred.

The fact someone may or may not have claimed Spider Man is real is irrelevant. We are talking about whether or not the book would serve as evidence just because it's set in a real place. If you want to focus on that point though, we can switch to other characters like Paul Bunyan who probably didn't really exist, however a fair number of people assume he probably did. With Paul Bunyan, you'll have real settings written in a linguistic style comparable to the time and places he was said to live in.

No, I said the scriptures were written by ancient humans inspired by God. Yes, that is what they did, they wrote histories about the cities they lived in and the surrounding towns and countries and recorded the things that God did at that time.

Or the things they thought god did, or in other cases they were largely fictional stories.

He was alive when there were still some of the disciples were still alive and others would had seen Christ in person. Many scholars including non-Christian scholars believe that the editing only included the parts that made theological claims about Jesus, the rest is considered authentic, and an overwhelming majority of scholars agree that his statements about James, Jesus' brother, were not added by Christian scribes. And there are other independent sources for His existence. So all these threads of independent sources in combination with the gospels confirm His existence.

There's only two fragments that talk about Jesus. The first one is almost universally regarded as a christian insertion into the original text. The second one, talking about James the brother of Jesus is likely authentic, however the Jesus in question is not Jesus Christ. It's Jesus Ben Damneus, who was a high priest at the time and is the subject of the section of Josephus's writings where the supposed passage about Jesus Christ is located. When you remove the single fragment "the one who is called christ", the passage makes more sense in context of the chapter it's written in. Furthermore, it's not consistent with Josephus's style to just throw a random name in there without explanation of who that person is. He would have included some history of who Jesus Christ was when including him in his work, as he did with pretty well any other important figure in his writings. The fact he didn't do that is further evidence that "Jesus" refers to Jesus ben Damneus, who he'd already described and was in the middle of writing about in that chapter.

Also, it shoudl be fairly obvious that Josephus would never call Jesus "the christ" as he was a Jew and not a Christian. If Josephus was legitimately writing about Jesus, he'd have almost certainly described him as a fraud or charlatan. He certainly would not have written about him in a positive light.

No, the ancient hymn predates the NT so technically it was not part of the bible. We know that the ancient jews used hymns to help to remember their history and pass it on orally, this is well known among scholars and has been shown to be a very accurate way to transmit historical events especially since many secular scholars agree that it was composed less than 5 years after the resurrection.

That still doesn't prove anything. Just because they wrote a song doesn't mean the song is accurate.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I didn't say that most of them were, but that is where the founders of Western Civilization got most of those principles from because only Christianity provided a rational foundation for them. There are some principles that are unique to Christianity however, "love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you." Also, the principle of intrinsic objective human value and rights.

There is a rational foundation for treating your fellow humans well and with respect without Christianity. Human value and human rights are not a christian teaching either. In fact, one of the key roadblocks to equality and rights for all people historically has been religion. Women's rights, Civil Rights, Gay Rights, Trans rights, a key cog in the fight to keep those people oppressed has been bible wielding Christians. That's not to say that some Christians have fought in favour of those things, however had it not been for Christianity the opposition to all of those movements would have been greatly diminished or entirely non existent.

Likewise, the concept of loving your enemies and doing good to those who persecute you in most cases is an idiotic worldview. It's one that Christians all throughout history have rarely followed as well.

The reason why most human cultures have similar basic moralities to Christian morality is that all humans are created in the image of the Christian God. But only Christianity provides an objectively rational basis for morality.

There is no objective rational basis for morality within Christianity. You only have what god proclaims to be good and bad. Also, some cultures existed before your god did, how do you account for them?

You would not like a world without the principles that are unique to Christianity especially the intrinsic value of all of human life. Without that principle, we would still have slavery among other things.

Shall I refer you to the sections of the bible that advocate and endorse slavery, as well as lay out the rules by which you may purchase slaves? You are aware Christians started the slave trade, right?

Fraid so, Christ and the disciples never stopped pagans and gentiles from speaking about their beliefs in fact they heartily encouraged it by debating with them. Read about Paul at Mars Hill and etc. And they are our examples as Christians.

Christ never had the power to legally prevent people from speaking their minds, especially as paganism was the Roman State Religion at the time.

Does "I am the lord thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me" sound like freedom of religion to you? What would have happened if you proclaimed yourself to be a non-believer in most European Christian theocracies up until a couple centuries ago? Torture if not full out execution. Even up until the very recent past, if you were a non-christian you'd be considered a moral degenerate shunned from society. There's still many parts of the world that treat non-believers like that. I wouldn't recommend coming out as an atheist in rural Kentucky or Mississippi, you'd have a hard time finding friends or employment after doing that.

No, the bible teaches from a legal perspective that all innocent humans have the right to life, but guilty criminals especially murderers forfeit that right. From a spiritual perspective, all humans deserve death. So when God decides that your time on earth is up, He will take you. He has that perogative as Judge of the Universe.

So, your religion intrinsically value human life so much that it thinks that all humans deserve to die.... interesting....

No, there is evidence that many of the protests have been funded by large Democrat donors like George Soros.

Is George Soros the Democratic Party, or is he someone that donates to the Democratic Party?

I have asked you repeatedly to show how the Democratic Party itself is involved, and explicitly said not supporters of the Democrats, but the Party itself. Why do you keep bringing up supporters? Do you have no evidence that the Democratic Party itself is organizing the protests?

I couldn't care less if George Soros is funding things, he has the right to do that as a private American citizen. Same way that the Koch Brothers have every right in the world to donate their time and money to Republican organizations. Citizens can spend their money or help organize whatever they want as long as the protest or organization is legal.

You made a claim against the Democratic Party itself, show your evidence for that claim.

I am referring to the exercise clause, where Catholic entities have been forced to endorse behaviors like using contraceptives and giving children for adoption to homosexual couples by the Obama Adminstration..

They are being forced to provide basic health coverage, where that money is spent is no business of the employer.

Likewise, the Catholic Church has voluntarily gotten into the adoption business. There are federal regulations that they must adhere to. You have two conflicting viewpoints, you have the well being of the child at stake, or you have someone's religious views. If someone is refusing a gay couple who would evidently make good parents based solely on their religion, my sympathies rest with the well being of the child.

If the Catholic Church isn't happy with that, they are more than welcome to sell their adoption services to a secular organization who will actually do everything it takes to ensure children in need find a good home.
 
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Dave Ellis

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CA-Conservatives
Be more specific and show us where the Holy Spirit's version of Creation is in error or show us the true story of the flood which totally destroyed Adam's world. Tell us where to find the physical empirical testable evidence of life BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos which is clearly shown in Genesis. I don't think you can since you obviously cannot understand the Bible. God Bless you

1) There's no reason to believe the biblical creation story is true in any sense.....
2) There was no global flood, therefore there was no flood that destroyed "adam's world"
3) There's no such thing as before the big bang. So, your question is meaningless.
 
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