No, we actually believe Jesus died.
I am aware that's how you express it, but it's not actually the case. If Jesus really paid the wages of sin, he would still be dead. The whole story is not only immoral and completely bereft of evidence, it's not even internally consistent. It is one of the least believable things ever imagined by humanity.
It was right for Jesus to be raised from death to life, else we also would have no eternal life in him, which is the whole point of the incarnation in the first place, that the fall of Adam could be undone and immortality restored to the human race.
No, an internally consistent story would have Jesus die and
stay dead, having paid the 'wages of sin'. By coming back, he never fulfilled that supposed blood debt.
Speaking of which, thanks again for reminding me of
another flaw - the utterly reprehensible concept blood debt. The idea that I can be held responsible for the supposed wrongdoing of a mythological ancestor is both absurd and immoral.
I get the feeling you don't seek to honestly understand what we believe.
I understand quite well. The difference is, I seriously consider the moral and logical implications of those beliefs, which is one of the many reasons why I am not a Christian, and never have been.
No, it's not about appeasing God. God was always pleased with himself, and that's all that ultimately matters to him. There is no insecurity in God that he should evsr need anything from a creature he created. However, out of God's love for humanity, he sent Jesus Christ to die for us.
Being a moral person is a fruit of being born again by the waters of baptism and the power of the Holy Spirit. However, until our glorification in the world to come, sin is a reality in our lives, and the true Christian struggles with it because they now see sin through the eyes of Christ and have a sense of the gravity of sin in their lives, of godly sorrow for the sins of the world.
I believe you believe all this stuff, none of it addresses my point - that a system that rewards the deathbed conversion of a serial murdering pederast and punishes a philanthropist atheist
is not a system of morality in any meaningful sense of the word.
Yes, God did this through the death ad resurrection of his Son.
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with my making restitution to the party that I have wronged.
It is a reality, its just you refuse to accept it.
Oh, nice. Another utterly vacuous naked assertion. I can do that too, watch:
It is a reality that I am nine feet tall and can shoot lasers out of my eyes, you just refuse to accept it. Are you convinced yet?
Pretending to know my thoughts is just about the laziest, most worthless apologetic tact you can take. I advise you don't use it in the future.
God doesn't leave us out of the picture. Jesus commissioned his followers with power and authority, and instituted sacramental mysteries that are for our benefit.
Again, that is completely immaterial to the point - that I can ask Yahweh for forgiveness without any respect paid to people who have actually suffered harm.
There are limits to human reason. Human reason is not infallible. We cannot govern every aspect of our lives by reason alone, to do so would be enfeebling. At some point, we must trust in something.
When you get on an airplane, you are placing your trust in many things. In the pilot's skill, the engineer's knowledge, the mechanic's diligence. Yet you don't know for sure if the plane is going to get you to your destination safely or not. Why mock people of faith for putting their trust in God
Firstly, pointing out extremely basic reasoning flaws is not 'mockery', and it's very telling of the religious mindset that you regard it as such.
Secondly, I have real, tangible reasons for trusting in the plane and its operators, predicated on an immense body of critically robust scientific research. Your belief in Yahweh is not remotely analogous.
If you can actually identify a single thing I believe, in the same religious sense that one believes in Yahweh, I will not only concede your point, I will stop believing that thing.
just because we cannot deliver you your illusory "certainty".
Firstly, not once, anywhere at all, did I use the word 'certainty'. You are shoehorning that in to service your terrible Yahweh/airplane analogy.
Secondly, nevermind certainty, Christianity can't even deliver internal coherency.
Now who's being the fundamentalist? The bible NEVER claims this for itself. Try reading it with fresh eyes some time. It's possible to be a Christian and reject that whole paradigm.
FWIW, I do not believe the Bible is the final word on God- I believe no word can circumscribe the Uncircumscribed. I also believe God is capable of speaking to us today and does so. Christians have always believed in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, it is impossible to come to faith without first being illumined by the Holy Spirit. Christianity is not a religion of a dead book.
Again, I'm sure you believe all that stuff, and again, it's irrelevant to the point I made - that I proportion my belief in claims to the evidence given for them, with regard to the nature of those claims, and so do you.
If you recall, this was in response to your asking me if I regard all ancient documents with the same level of skepticism. That answer is still no, the reasons for saying no have not changed, and your personal account of the Bible has zero bearing on anything relevant to those reasons.
