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How did God get his morals?

Wryetui

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I think you are going a little bit too far here. We cannot give an "ultimate" answer concerning God, because we are not qualified to do it, we don't know certain things about Him, and we cannot FULLY understand Him, because if we would, He wouldn't be God anymore. So, concerning about things like: "What was He doing before He created us?" or "What God does in His free time?" are not things that we know, we can only GUESS or say what we think He does.

Where did God get His morality? I don't think God chose His morality from a set of moral ideas, but that's how He is and He has always been. God is just, good, kind, loving, fair, faithful and other things because those are the traits of His behaviour, so that's how we have to be too. Things like evil, madness, wicked, lie and other things exist because of us humans, because we twisted the original morality that God set into us, we twisted it by sin and by distanciating from Him.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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This is a tough question for theists, because it is one of many theists face, that is answered with pure speculation, that is motivated by rationalizing the character and morality of their God.

I don't find it tough at all, and don't they teach Speculation in most seminaries. :D
 
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This is a tough question for theists, because it is one of many theists face, that is answered with pure speculation, that is motivated by rationalizing the character and morality of their God.
But this is a "nothing" statement. Humans rationalize everything in the sense of using reason in our attempts to make sound judgments.

But of course you mean rationalize in the sense of making excuses for one's beliefs....and you're claiming atheists don't do this? Certitude is pretty standoffish, it seems to be an equal opportunity dweller, at arm's distance from Hindus, Moslems, Atheists, Theists, public servants, teachers, etc. So what?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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But this is a "nothing" statement. Humans rationalize everything in the sense of using reason in our attempts to make sound judgments.

But of course you mean rationalize in the sense of making excuses for one's beliefs....and you're claiming atheists don't do this? Certitude is pretty standoffish, it seems to be an equal opportunity dweller, at arm's distance from Hindus, Moslems, Atheists, Theists, public servants, teachers, etc. So what?

I don't think bhsmte is in any way suggesting that atheists are perfect reasoners. Obviously I can't speak for all atheists, but I'm fairly certain most would admit that they could be wrong about many things, including the existence of gods. Some religious people likewise admit that they could be wrong, but many do the opposite and insist that they cannot be wrong - failure (or fallibility) isn't an option. When faced with hard questions these individuals are forced to rationalise why poorly founded beliefs merit such an extreme level of certainty. The enterprise devoted to these rationalisations is known as apologetics.
 
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bhsmte

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But this is a "nothing" statement. Humans rationalize everything in the sense of using reason in our attempts to make sound judgments.

But of course you mean rationalize in the sense of making excuses for one's beliefs....and you're claiming atheists don't do this? Certitude is pretty standoffish, it seems to be an equal opportunity dweller, at arm's distance from Hindus, Moslems, Atheists, Theists, public servants, teachers, etc. So what?

When did I claim atheists don't "rationalize"?

Furthermore, people rationalize in different ways. Some are driven to rationalize by discovering as many facts as possible and this forms their beliefs, while others start with their beliefs and then rationalize the same.

How we go about this, depends on how we are wired and how our personal psyche has developed during our lives.
 
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When did I claim atheists don't "rationalize"?
You didn't. I was using rhetoric and thought you would recognize it. I was wrong. My apologies.

Furthermore, people rationalize in different ways. Some are driven to rationalize by discovering as many facts as possible and this forms their beliefs, while others start with their beliefs and then rationalize the same.
Granted. Are you implying atheists fulfill the former and theists the latter?

How we go about this, depends on how we are wired and how our personal psyche has developed during our lives.
Sure, if you mean the phrase "how we are wired" in a general and not deterministic sense.

But let's back up a bit. Your comment, "This is a tough question for theists, because it is one of many theists face, that is answered with pure speculation, that is motivated by rationalizing the character and morality of their God."

Assuming the "tough question" was the one asked in the op, I didn't see it as tough and gave my answer. Was I using "pure speculation" motivated by "rationalizing" in the sense of performing what to atheist thinking would be characterized as intellectual gymnastics or contrived reasons?
 
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bhsmte

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You didn't. I was using rhetoric and thought you would recognize it. I was wrong. My apologies.

No problem.

Granted. Are you implying atheists fulfill the former and theists the latter?

As a general rule, yes, theists tend to start with a premise that their God exists and work from that point and their predetermined belief, impacts how they perceive evidence.

Now, if one looks at a fundamentalist Christian, vs a more moderate Christian, even these two go about rationalizing in quite different manners.


Sure, if you mean the phrase "how we are wired" in a general and not deterministic sense.

Genetics. Some are more wired to think analytically and others more intuitively. Through life experiences though, we can alter this though, to some degree.

Assuming the "tough question" was the one asked in the op, I didn't see it as tough and gave my answer. Was I using "pure speculation" motivated by "rationalizing" in the sense of performing what to atheist thinking would be characterized as intellectual gymnastics or contrived reasons?

I was a Christian for 40 years, so I understand what it is like, to try to understand God, his characteristics, etc. etc..

The simple fact that there are so many denominations of Christianity, tells me people do speculate and they speculate and perceive, based on what is likely most comfortable to them.

Lastly, nothing wrong with that, but it just doesn't hold up well to outside scrutiny, when the layers start to be peeled back. With that said, the personal belief a person has, may very well be the best thing for them and allows them to live a better life because of it.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Lastly, nothing wrong with that, but it just doesn't hold up well to outside scrutiny, when the layers start to be peeled back. With that said, the personal belief a person has, may very well be the best thing for them and allows them to live a better life because of it.

"As a man thinketh, so is he." Our state of being, the "is" of this statement, defines our beliefs. Our beliefs are made manifest by our conduct, regardless of the often confusing way we attempt to define them. Most problems and situations are rationalized to some degree to fit comfortably within our belief system.

For example, I believe in conserving water, but not to the extent of discomfort. My rationale is that the first to substantially reduce water use should be those who produce unnecessary products, whether food or manufactured goods. Human health, cleanliness and comfort are the top priority of water use imo, notwithstanding that the first public calls for conservation are always directed at personal use of water.
 
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As a general rule, yes, theists tend to start with a premise that their God exists and work from that point and their predetermined belief, impacts how they perceive evidence.

Now, if one looks at a fundamentalist Christian, vs a more moderate Christian, even these two go about rationalizing in quite different manners.
Agreed.

Genetics. Some are more wired to think analytically and others more intuitively. Through life experiences though, we can alter this though, to some degree.
Okay, got it. agreed.


I was a Christian for 40 years, so I understand what it is like, to try to understand God, his characteristics, etc. etc..
Seems like there're a lot of you around. Christian-turned-atheist that is.

The simple fact that there are so many denominations of Christianity, tells me people do speculate and they speculate and perceive, based on what is likely most comfortable to them.
Yes. I was raised Catholic till 18, practiced hedonism for a bit and now embrace a more Protestant form of belief. Like many I grew up in Christianity and my beliefs have developed from what I was taught early on. I don't pretend to have developed Christian faith from a clean slate, but I'm skeptical that anyone starts without presuppositions.

Lastly, nothing wrong with that, but it just doesn't hold up well to outside scrutiny, when the layers start to be peeled back. With that said, the personal belief a person has, may very well be the best thing for them and allows them to live a better life because of it.
You lost me....what is the "that" that doesn't hold up well to scrutiny?

I don't agree that personal beliefs are necessarily the best thing for a person. Truth is the best thing for anyone as I see it. Personal beliefs are usually just what we find comfortable, atheist and theist alike.
 
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bhsmte

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You lost me....what is the "that" that doesn't hold up well to scrutiny?

When a believer, attempts to objectively show support for their belief, I have never seen this go well. As more layers are peeled back and critical analysis is involved, the holes become apparent, looking at it purely from an objective standpoint.

I don't agree that personal beliefs are necessarily the best thing for a person. Truth is the best thing for anyone as I see it. Personal beliefs are usually just what we find comfortable, atheist and theist alike.

Truth, as each person sees it, is how I would put it.

Some go about finding truth in highly objective means, because they think analytically and want to roll over every rock to find the truth. Others, don't go about it the same way and truths don't have to make as much objective sense as they do with others. At the end of the day, one has to be able to reconcile their own beliefs with themselves and this can be heavily influenced by our individual psychology.

I am atheist towards personal Gods and agnostic towards a non personal universal type God. With that said, this does not mean, that I believe everyone should agree with me, or they can't live a good life. Some people, need faith beliefs more than others and with some again, it can be a positive force in their life, while there are others, that abuse faith beliefs.
 
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Sheiriam

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Great question. It's one I like to ask whenever a theist says 'If you don't believe in God, how do you get your morals?'

I also ask this question quite often.
The answer always sound like a combination of the search for happiness and don't harm other which kinda sounds blurry to me.
 
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Sheiriam

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When a believer, attempts to objectively show support for their belief, I have never seen this go well. As more layers are peeled back and critical analysis is involved, the holes become apparent, looking at it purely from an objective standpoint.



Truth, as each person sees it, is how I would put it.

Some go about finding truth in highly objective means, because they think analytically and want to roll over every rock to find the truth. Others, don't go about it the same way and truths don't have to make as much objective sense as they do with others. At the end of the day, one has to be able to reconcile their own beliefs with themselves and this can be heavily influenced by our individual psychology.

I am atheist towards personal Gods and agnostic towards a non personal universal type God. With that said, this does not mean, that I believe everyone should agree with me, or they can't live a good life. Some people, need faith beliefs more than others and with some again, it can be a positive force in their life, while there are others, that abuse faith beliefs.
I think the highly objective means of searching the truth can only go so far as the social background allows it,the mass media,the education and the thinking trends.
Basically we are everything but not close to being objective at all.

I think the most "honest" system of beliefs that we can accept in our lives is the ones that does not follow our own interests,or is flattering to what we already do or plan to do with in our future.
 
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bhsmte

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I think the highly objective means of searching the truth can only go so far as the social background allows it,the mass media,the education and the thinking trends.
Basically we are everything but not close to being objective at all.

I think the most "honest" system of beliefs that we can accept in our lives is the ones that does not follow our own interests,or is flattering to what we already do or plan to do with in our future.

No one is 100% objective, but there are wide variations amongst each person's ability to be objective.

Some activities require more objectivity than others to be successful. For instance, science. If scientists didn't have the ability to be objective, they would struggle in doing their work.

Others, are much less reliant on objectivity.
 
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When a believer, attempts to objectively show support for their belief, I have never seen this go well. As more layers are peeled back and critical analysis is involved, the holes become apparent, looking at it purely from an objective standpoint.
Interesting. I've observed a range of support for Christian belief on the other hand, from those similar to your description (superficial belief) to what I find to be the presentation of a sound apologetic.

We do share a similarity, though. On the flip side of the coin as my own theology has developed it's opened up doors for me to see how my atheist brethren paint themselves into their belief system, layered in much the same sense you see that of the Christian. The difference might be characterized in that the Christian constructs magnificent doctrinal towers using mud (false mortar), while the atheist digs holes into the inner reaches of points in time and space where she finds comfort in inert reality. Because she refuses to allow her thinking to extend beyond this 'cave', her rationalizations--and that of all those of her religion--are as predictable as she finds those of the Christian.

Truth, as each person sees it, is how I would put it.
But this implies subjectivism, which is self-defeating and untenable.

Some go about finding truth in highly objective means, because they think analytically and want to roll over every rock to find the truth. Others, don't go about it the same way and truths don't have to make as much objective sense as they do with others. At the end of the day, one has to be able to reconcile their own beliefs with themselves and this can be heavily influenced by our individual psychology.
Why do I get the feeling comments like these boil down to thinly veiled praise for the atheist worldview and criticism for the theist's?

I am atheist towards personal Gods and agnostic towards a non personal universal type God. With that said, this does not mean, that I believe everyone should agree with me, or they can't live a good life.
And I also feel my theology is able to give a reasonable account of why the atheist can be as moral as anyone else. Most of my Christian brethren--understanding that the ability to believe (unite with) true prescriptive or moral propositions requires regeneration--err in the assumption (imo) that spiritual birth is withheld from atheists or Moslems, Hindus, etc.

And for what it's worth, the above is consistent with my first post stating that the question "Where did God get His morals?", typically consistent of today's atheist mockery of Christianity, is meaningless. God doesn't "get" morals because morality only identifies the pressure experienced in intellectual operation of the tension and resistance between prescriptive truth and falsity. In other words, morality can only have meaning for fragmentally falsified beings with intellectual capability. People.
 
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bhsmte

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Interesting. I've observed a range of support for Christian belief on the other hand, from those similar to your description (superficial belief) to what I find to be the presentation of a sound apologetic.

Well, I have observed many apologetic arguments for Christianity and have yet so see one, the hold up will to objective scrutiny. All require a good deal of assumptions and speculation and when you peel back the layers, is when the holes emerge.

With that said, I wouldn't expect arguments for a God or a religion to be objectively sound, (why it is called faith) when heavily scrutinized and this also doesn't mean, I couldn't be wrong and a certain God does exist and a certain religion is correct. I base my judgment on certain religious theologies, on the basic claims they make and overlaying those, with the well evidenced realities of the world. When I do so, I can not reconcile the Christian theology, or any other theology with reality.

We do share a similarity, though. On the flip side of the coin as my own theology has developed it's opened up doors for me to see how my atheist brethren paint themselves into their belief system, layered in much the same sense you see that of the Christian. The difference might be characterized in that the Christian constructs magnificent doctrinal towers using mud (false mortar), while the atheist digs holes into the inner reaches of points in time and space where she finds comfort in inert reality. Because she refuses to allow her thinking to extend beyond this 'cave', her rationalizations--and that of all those of her religion--are as predictable as she finds those of the Christian.

I have an advanced degree in physiology, but I have devoured readings on human psychology for over a decade and part of the reason I am on this site, is my interest in psychology. I am not so much concerned with what people believe or don't believe on this site, but much more so, for why they believe what they do and how they justify their belief and I find this highly interesting.

All of us, are impacted by our personal psychological needs in regards to how we form beliefs or reject beliefs. Some of this is hardwired in us, but our life's experiences and the knowledge we accumulate, can also heavily impact how we perceive and digest information to form our beliefs. The field of "psychology of belief" is quite fascinating and delves into the same.


But this implies subjectivism, which is self-defeating and untenable.

I disagree. Looking at things subjectively, may be what a person needs and that is how they go about their business. This goes back to people who are more prone to be; analytical thinkers, vs intuitive thinkers and how which one is most dominant, impacts how they digest information. Look at the placebo effect and how it is very real. Simply thinking one is taking a medicine that is helping them, can impact them in a positive way (according to their own perceptions), even though what they are taking, is a sugar pill. Our minds are powerful forces indeed.


Why do I get the feeling comments like these boil down to thinly veiled praise for the atheist worldview and criticism for the theist's?

Not meant to be. As I already stated, I firmly believe, theism for some, may be the absolute best thing for them to believe in, as it helps give them hope and live a happier life.


And I also feel my theology is able to give a reasonable account of why the atheist can be as moral as anyone else. Most of my Christian brethren--understanding that the ability to believe (unite with) true prescriptive or moral propositions requires regeneration--err in the assumption (imo) that spiritual birth is withheld from atheists or Moslems, Hindus, etc.

IMO, all humans get their morality from the same place. Their culture, their life experiences and to a lessor degree, how they are wired. Atheists can be moral and immoral and theists can be moral and immoral.

And for what it's worth, the above is consistent with my first post stating that the question "Where did God get His morals?", typically consistent of today's atheist mockery of Christianity, is meaningless. God doesn't "get" morals because morality only identifies the pressure experienced in intellectual operation of the tension and resistance between prescriptive truth and falsity. In other words, morality can only have meaning for fragmentally falsified beings with intellectual capability. People.

What is moral and what is not, changes with the times and our history is a good example of that. 50 years ago, many Christians may have considered interracial marriage immoral and many fewer today do not. 55% of the United States approves of gay marriage, where just a short time ago, this was not the case.

What is moral and what is not, is always in flux.
 
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