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How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by InterestedAtheist, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    See post #165, which could help you on everything you say here, to correct several mistaken ideas.
     
  2. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    You mean the one I answered already, several times?
    Okay. Here we go again.
    Isaiah wasn't talking about people in heaven. He was foretelling a glorious rebirth for the nation of Israel and saying that its (the nation's) sins and flaws would be forgotten. The verse has absolutely nothing to do with people in heaven forgetting their past lives.
     
  3. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    mod hat on

    Thread has undergone a slight clean up. As a reminder, please stay on topic, and just as important: Address content and not other members. Doing so will serve you well, and avoid future staff actions.

    mod hat off
     
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Let me try to help you learn more here (if you are willing). (no one can make you learn anything, but you have to choose to learn)

    When you have an idea like this:

    Check to see if your idea fits the consensus mainstream commentary views:

    Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

    Mainstream Commentary views:

    "The "former things," the sin and sorrow of the past, shall then fade away from the memory of God's people, absorbed in the abounding and everlasting joy."

    "The glory of the new heavens and earth would be such that the former ones would not only not be regretted, but would not even be had in remembrance. No one would so much as think of them."

    Then, noticing your idea, interestedAtheist, doesn't fit the mainstream view --

    Then, it's best to try to find out more about that mainstream view, to discover new things.

    We already know factually in scripture that some Jews from before Christ came already entered heaven, and generally at least some portion of all Jews will, also.

    Also, we know definitely that this Isaiah verse is referring to the same New Heavens and New Earth that we also hear of in the New Testament. (There are not multiple sets of new heavens and new earths, as if proliferating in several sets. Just 1.)

    If you want to see it's the same, just ask for verses, and I'll show you some.

     
  5. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    My thoughts precisely!

    I'm sure there are many Bible scholars who agree with you. But so what? Saying "there are lots of people who agree with me" doesn't help you, I'm afraid. You need to give reasons why you and they are correct.
    These scholars - they would all be Christians, I imagine? Tell me, how many Jewish scholars agree with you that Isaiah was saying that people in heaven will no longer remember their past lives in that verse?
     
  6. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Of course this is a Christian forum, and we know that many of Israel will be turned to Christ in time (though many were not before), as we learn in the New Testament.

    If you are sincerely interested, then notice how in the New Testament -- also -- all believers, Christians, whether gentile or Jew, are instructed that we can all look forward to that same "new heaven and new earth" --

    2 Peter 3:13 But in keeping with God's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

    If you'd like to see more passages, here is another:
    In Revelation -- after Christ, for all Christians:

    1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

    5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
    Revelation 21 NIV

    As also intimated by Christ here:

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

    That this current heaven and earth would pass away, and yet, something new is coming after them: a place for us. The new heaven and new earth.

    This is how we know that
    Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
    is the first prophecy of several about this coming place, where all sorrows of this world, every one, including those that refused Christ through their life to the end perishing: all such sorrows will be forgotten.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  7. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    It looks like we're getting in to quite the discussion over Isaiah! But before we go on, better get one thing clear.
    Whatever Isaiah really said and meant means very little to me. If you were correct, and he was saying that the followers of God would go to a heaven that would be so wonderful that nobody would remember the troubles of the past, I wouldn't mind. I'm just pointing out that you're wrong about this, and will explain why in a moment.

    But first, if that is your reasoning - nobody will think of any of their loved ones who may be in hell because heaven will be so wonderful - well, honestly, that's horrible. Your loved ones - your baby child? The wife you married? The parents who brought you up? They are roasting on a spit forever, but you're enjoying yourself too much in heaven to give a thought to them. Unless, of course, it's one of the alternative explanations Christians have invented - that God gives you a mindwipe so you don't remember them, or that you actually enjoy seeing sinners in torment, even those who were dear to you.
    Honestly, I'm not sure which are the greater horrors of heaven among that happy bunch. Lobotimised? Uncaring? Vindictive? Hard to say.

    But back to Isaiah. Taking a look at the verses you cite, I can't say they're very impressive. Of course, if Peter thinks there will be a new heaven and a new earth, good for him. Revelations, saying "I am making everything new!" - well, you're making that do a lot of work, in my opinion, and basing your argument on a weak foundation. Same for the quote from Matthew; it just looks like hyperbole for "What I'm saying is important, so listen up!"

    Now, back to Isaiah. I suggest you reread the context around that isolated quote that is really the foundation for your argument. If you do, it's quite clear that Isaiah is simply saying that Israel has been sinful and wicked for too long, and deserves to be punished; but take heart, Isaiah is saying, because there will be a golden future, God will make Israel great again and everything will be wonderful.
    Just look at it. He says that Jerusalem will be happy and wonderful. He says the people will live to be over a hundred, and anyone who dies before a hundred (people dying, in heaven?) will be considered most unlucky. He says the people will build houses for themselves to live in, not for other people. They will have lucky children and blessed children (you don't think people in children are going to be having babies, do you?)

    In short, just read the verse in context, and you'll see Isaiah is talking about Israel being blessed by the Lord. As one would expect of a Jewish prophet living centuries before Christ.
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    The New Heaven and New Earth in the New Testament verses above.

    The New Jerusalem, in the New Testament.

    You should try to learn from Christians what the mainstream interpretations are, instead of a non Christian interpretation.
     
  9. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My short answer > no.

    So ones can see what I mean by my short answer > here is a longer and experimental answer >

    I don't know all the details of who I will remember and when - - during this life, during the day of judgment, and after people have gone to their eternal places.

    But - - like I offer . . . now is the time to think of and care for people who don't have Jesus. And now is when we can be their good example to help them to Jesus.

    Among other reasons > because there is scripture which can mean we will not remember them later, after we die. So, while we can remember them and do all we can to help them . . . now we have time.

    And since I consider God to be good and the better Judge than we are > I would say it can be good, either way . . . to remember ones who refused Jesus and us, or to not remember them. After all, either way, the ones who have refused have decided not to be with us. If they don't want us . . . and we offered all we could . . . they actually might want some privacy, in hell, for all I know > after all, ones already are in a living hell > 2 Timothy 3:13, Romans 3:16-17 > and they don't want Christians involved - - except maybe in some way that doesn't solve their real problem.
     
  10. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Two points.
    One, you really don't know what you're talking about. You yourself have admitted this. Your ideas about what this "heaven" thing will be like are based on a few scraps of sentences from the Bible, that could be interpreted in many ways.
    Second, I get what you're saying. You believe that you will forget all about your loved ones, and that's a good thing, because you won't love them any more, and that they would not want you to be thinking about them anyway while they're in hell.

    That's horrible, and I can't see how anyone who believes it could describe themselves as a loving person, but if that's what you believe, then thank you for telling me.
     
  11. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Like it or not, the Christian view that Isaiah was talking about people in the Christian heaven is simply not borne out. These people are, quite simply, reading Isaiah with the preconception that he must have been describing their religion. But if you look at what he said in context, it's clear he was talking about the future of Israel, not of Christian worshippers.
     
  12. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    No. Learn from Christians what the consensus Christian interpretation is:

    Isaiah 65:17 Commentaries: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

    It won't change.

    Christians believe Christ is the Messiah.
     
  13. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    (edited to add) Thank you for reminding me of forum rules. I shall amend my comment.

    I'm afraid you're mistaken about what Christians think as well.

    Go and read Isaiah again. Shortly after he speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, he says that people shall live for a very long time, and that they shall bear children. Christians (check your own commentaries) believe that Isaiah is talking about what life will look like after the second coming of Christ.

    So, when you say that in heaven you will not remember your loved ones who are in hell because of what Isaiah said (the topic of this thread) you are incorrect. Christians believe he was talking about the second coming, a blessed state of existence among mortal humans, on Earth, not an afterlife of any kind.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  14. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    It's routine in scripture that different times are addressed in the same prophecies, often in the same chapter, and even at times in the same sentence.

    Also, it's not permitted at Christian Forums to promote competing religions:

    "Promoting* or proselytizing religious beliefs or religions other than Christianity is not allowed."

    So, it breaks the rules to advocate or promote an orthodox Jewish doctrine that implies Christianity is false.
     
  15. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    The New Jerusalem -- in which all of these prophecies will be fulfilled -- is part of the New Testament, of course.

    It's not permitted at Christian Forums to promote another religion other than Christianity.
     
  16. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    Oh suppose if I have to tell all, then I'll admit that I believe that there very well could be a kind of Hades ...

    ... unfortunately, due to the forum rules, that's about as much as I can reveal. ;)
     
  17. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Thank you for the reminder. I have duly revised my comment.
     
  18. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Now is our time to care about non-believers. But ones don't want what we offer to them. But we care about them, anyway, and keep praying for them and offering our example.

    So, they have the opportunity to benefit now. If they refuse this, they have refused our love and attention. I don't know if we will think of them, later, but if they have permanently refused Jesus and us . . . I can see it would not be practical later to keep thinking of them; because after they receive their judgment and place, our example and love for them can't bring them out of there.

    But if God has us praying for them, for some reason and purpose, fine.
     
  19. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    I understand what you're saying.
    You're saying it makes no sense to care about your loved ones when you are in heaven and they are in hell, because they have rejected your offered hand, and in any case there's nothing that you can do to help them even if you wanted to.
    So, if you do find yourself in heaven and your loved ones - your wife, your little child, your best friend, etc. - end up in hell, you expect to feel nothing but happiness. You will not weep for them, you will not try to help them, you will let nothing at all spoil your happiness in heaven.
    Is that what you mean? Have I understood you correctly?
     
  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not the way you seem to understand this. Not with the context you are giving this.

    Right now, Jesus is in Heaven, and He is doing all He can to help people who are on their way to Hell. So, Heaven now does care about people on this earth. So, if you feel Heaven is horrible, I think you are not correct. Jesus left Heaven itself in order to reach us humans on this earth, and Jesus so suffered and died so we would not go to Hell, I understand. So, Jesus is not at all conceited . . . being so superior and better than we are, yet not looking down on us.

    So, Heaven does care about miserable and awful people who are not all-loving. But Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46. If by nature people only love certain people, their character is anti-God. They have love idols . . . those they can use for what they want, often enough. But Jesus came to save us from how we can be selfishly loving only our own family and friends.

    This is another thing, then > Jesus wants me to love better, than to only love certain ones in my own family. You keep saying, what about caring for my own wife and children? . . . things like this. Jesus has us loving any and all people. But selfish character limits us to being able to love only ones we can possess and control and use for what we want . . . or to tend to this way of loving.

    Only God can change our character so we become genuinely loving, then Hebrews 12:4-14 . . . so we are holy in love which makes us ready to share eternity with Jesus and one another. And the time for this change is now. People in Hell won't have this character; so they will not be capable of honestly desiring to be saved. Their motive might be to try to get to Heaven so they can destroy how Jesus has things > this is what Satan tried to do, and his children are like him > John 8:44.

    So, there is the issue of character. God is perfectly good, by nature. He has no choice about how He is > He can not change from being so good in love > James 1:13-17.

    But there is evil, the exact opposite in nature. There is no reasoning with evil. Plus, the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2) is like paper against fire. It burns if it is near fire.

    Like this, ones not of God's love actually are burnt by Jesus. Satan could not stand Jesus. The devil tried to bring Heaven down to his awfulness and misery. So, for his own good he had to be cast out like lightning. And ones with him can not stand Jesus . . . or > @Clizby WampusCat > they suppose they have nothing against Him because they have never been in His presence.

    It would be like paper in the presence of a bonfire. Possibly, they could burn worse in Heaven, than in Hell . . . because of their own nature.

    "For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

    So, it is not about if I would care about people or not. Their character without Jesus makes them so they would burn and greatly suffer torment in the presence of the most beautifully loving and caring One of all. So, if I am a child of God, I greatly need how God changes my character to so better than human so I am capable of sharing with Him in His love.

    So, this is not a theoretical item, or about logic. This is about how God really is, and if He changes us to be capable of benefiting while with Him.

    And I can't help them if I am miserable and suffering and sorrowful . . . like they are. That doesn't work. I need to become how they need to become so this can spread to make them capable of sharing intimately with God.

    When Jesus came to this earth, people couldn't stand Him. They crucified Him. "all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and on our children" > in Matthew 27:25. They were so upset and nasty against God's own Son, that they cursed their own children with the shed blood of Christ!!

    So, feeling sorry for such people is not helping them. They need how God is able to change our character so we become capable of real loving. And we need to be their example of this so this can spread to them.

    And by nature God is beautifully wonderful in joy and glory of love. You can not love, without being joyful. Caring does not mean suffering torment in worry. That's not loving, because it has you suffering. You can mourn and care without suffering torment of fear and worry.

    "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

    So, what I get is that worry with its torment is a reaction of possessive love. We can love and care about people, without suffering misery and torment.

    So, in my opinion, whether or not I would care about people in Hell, or think of them, is not relevant - - except to motivate me . . . now . . . to care about people and be their example so they can be changed in their character to join us. What we do now, by being examples of how people can become, is what needs our attention.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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