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How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by InterestedAtheist, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Revelation 21:4
     
  2. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Yes, I've read that before. "Former things" is pretty vague. But apparently you mean that if your loved ones happen to go to hell and you go to heaven, you won't care in the slightest.

    Okay. Thank you for letting us know what you think.
     
  3. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Putting words into my mouth - not a good look.

    You see whatever you want to see I guess... I'm just logical.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I do indeed take my own advice.

    I reread books in the bible I've read several times, trying to listen and hear more, understand more.

    I'd not suggest that to you if I didn't do it myself, as that would be a very poor way to live. You may be used to people not doing as they tell others, but don't assume all are that way.

    To really understand Isaiah well, you'd need to read in a sympathetic way.

    It's just like how to understand a deep or profound poem, you can only succeed to the extent you are willing to be open enough to just listen intently. The rewards are for those that have that willingness to try to hear what they don't yet know.
     
  5. Magnanimity

    Magnanimity Member

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    Without having mutual conceptual language, we wouldn't even be able to connect our minds. Our common concepts allow us to make this connection and converse. Humanity at least has that going for it.

    I rather agree with the OP that the point of this thread is to provide some reason(s) for considering that eternal-Hell is deeply problematic. So, the writing that the OP quoted is purporting to give reasons against such a view of the afterlife. Exclusionary arguments are still arguments, right? At a minimum, they assist us in judging what won't be considered as an option (like a future state that is unjust, say).

    Since neither God nor the afterlife are objects in the universe, the concept of "evidence" is probably mistaken here. We can't conduct experiments on these things and we can't drag them into a courtroom. Speaking about God or the afterlife is a bit like speaking about universals (or, Platonic Ideas/Forms). Folks can argue and offer reasons for their respective positions on these issues, even if these things we're talking about have no physicality whatsoever.

    At least 2 things we can be absolutely certain about. The following two propositions are actually undeniable.

    Thinking is occurring.
    Something exists.
     
  6. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I have done what I could with a person and he or she has rejected me permanently, why should I allow that unloving person to have power over me to keep me suffering?
     
  7. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Because you love them.
    Or are you saying that if you saw your parent, child or best friend suffering in hell, and if they begged you to save them, you would feel nothing but happiness?
     
  8. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can sorrow for wrong people because I love them, yes, but appreciate and enjoy all which is good.
     
  9. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    So you will feel sorrow in heaven?
     
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I mean that now I can have sorrow for wrong people because I care about them.

    But if I go to share eternity with Jesus, I understand that we will be delighting in Jesus and loving one another. Why would I be sorrowful about that?

    I do not think it is wise to allow evil and evil people to decide if I am happy or not. Evil wants us to miss out on God and real loving and joy and peace. And if people are in the kingdom of evil, they hate Jesus. They don't want us to have joy and love together.

    When Jesus was offered to the people, Satanic people screamed that they wanted Him to be crucified; wicked people tried to keep people away from Jesus who is God's own Son. That was because of how they were in Satan's kingdom, with his character and desires > John 8:44. It wasn't logical that a human would not want God's own Son; but their horrible character made them like that.

    Now is the time to trust in Jesus, in order to be saved.

    "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (in 2 Corinthians 6:2)

    "Seek the LORD while He may be found" (in Isaiah 55:6)

    So, once ones are in hell, they will not have the character to truly desire salvation. Now is our time to be changed by God so we truly love Him and obey Him and love any and all people like Jesus was doing on the cross. This is a basic of loving as God's children, how we love the way Jesus on the cross was loving > this is a commandment > Ephesians 5:2 . . . a basic of real loving.

    But there are ones who have been anti-Jesus and anti-love . . . caring only or mainly about their own selves; so ones like this became able to call for Jesus to be crucified.

    Ones even cursed their own children with the shed blood of Jesus >

    "And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and on our children.'" (Matthew 27:25)

    If ones die while in such character, they will not have the character to honestly desire to be saved. What might be happening is Satan could have them begging to go to Heaven so they can try to overthrow Jesus . . . like Satan and his once tried to do.

    Because of how Satanic people really are in their character, if they had Jesus right in front of them, they could do what those people were capable of doing, calling for Him to be crucified. They had proof, of how Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead; but certain religious leaders then tried to kill Lazarus. John 12:9-11

    So, in case ones could beg me to save them . . . it is possible they would not mean it, because of their real character which has had them rejecting Jesus; they have deep conceit of feeling they are too good for Jesus; so it isn't logical that they could all of a sudden want Jesus.

    We see how the Jews with Moses would turn against God, suffer until they cried to Him, get saved, but then they would turn against Him, again and again . . . because of their real character.

    In order to be saved, we need how God changes our character, by means of how He alone is able to correct us deeply > Hebrews 12:4-14. And now is our time for this.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  11. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Okay. I understand.
    So if you were in heaven, and your loved ones were in hell, you would not care about them in the slightest. That seems horrible to me, but then this thread is about the horrors of heaven.
     
  12. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is not what I said.

    I have offered that I care about people now while it can help.

    But if they are so anti-Jesus that they feel they are too good for Him, I am not going to let them decide how I become.

    Jesus does care about them. Jesus so suffered and died for people so we won't suffer for eternity. But ones are so stubborn that they refuse Him.

    There is no reason for us to keep on sorrowing for ones who have refused Jesus, after all He has done for us.

    What is the value of that?
     
  13. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Sure. I understand perfectly. You care about people while you can help them. It would be irrationao, useless and pointless to care about people when they are beyond helping. THerefore - and this seems to me to an the inescapably logical conclusion to you saying you care about people only when you can help them - you don't care about people when you can't help them.

    So, if you were in heaven and saw a vision of, say, your children suffering in hell, you wouldn't care. You would feel nothing but happiness, because you are in heaven. Am I right?

    If I am wrong, please could you tell me what you think you would be feeling?
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    praying and obeying God, for the sake of whatever He would please to do with them.

    This is what I do, anyway . . . pray for howsoever God would please to bless any person, at all. I do not make a project of trying to be miserable or happy.

    But, of course, I find there is question about if people with Jesus in eternity will have their attention going to people elsewhere. That is what we need to do, now.
     
  15. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    It's plain in scripture we will not. If you don't already know the verse, just ask.



    You've got the wrong idea entirely here. We won't remember any painful thing.

    Asking us -- me and @com7fy8 -- about this repeatedly won't change it.

    God has chosen that we will not remember anything of this world, not the evils, not the sorrows, not the pains, and not those who have rejected us, whom we loved even though they hurt us.


    How do we know? --> It's the plain and clear wording from the same source -- scripture -- that you are asking questions about the contents of.

    Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

    It's very clear wording, but you can of course read commentaries:

    Variously:

    "The "former things," the sin and sorrow of the past, shall then fade away from the memory of God's people, absorbed in the abounding and everlasting joy."

    "The glory of the new heavens and earth would be such that the former ones would not only not be regretted, but would not even be had in remembrance. No one would so much as think of them."

    Or you could read some exposition on it, if you prefer, such as:
    How can heaven be perfect if all of our loved ones are not there? | GotQuestions.org

    Or if you want to see more, we can find more.
     
  16. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course, Heaven cares about evil people in their misery, right now. And so, Jesus came from Heaven, in order to so suffer and die for us so we don't spend eternity in hell. Jesus would know about hell; I consider how Jesus considered it worthwhile to so suffer like that so we don't go there.

    So, it is wise to appreciate Him for this. And God does want us to rejoice in Jesus. After all, He went through all that so we would not keep on suffering.

    And Ezekiel 33:11 does say >

    "'Say to them: "As I live," says the LORD God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live."'" (in Ezekiel 33:11)

    And Jesus says there is more joy in Heaven about one sinner who repents, than for ones already with God, who have no need to repent (Luke 15:7). So, Heaven does have joy :)
     
  17. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I don't hate Jesus and I don't want people to miss out on God. I simply want sufficient evidence to believe God exists. If that makes me evil then I am ok with that.
     
  18. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Goodness me, you're not still basing this all on that single line from Isaiah, are you? Okay, if you want to be wrong about it you can, but Isaiah was an Israelite, not a Christian, and he wasn't talking about you, he was talking about the Nation of Israel.

    Still, let's go with it. Okay, so in order for you to enjoy heaven, God will wipe your mind. I hope you don't disagree with that; it's hard to see what else it would mean when you will no longer remember your former life or loved ones.

    So, according to you, on a small piece of highly dubious scripture, you will not be bothered at all about the fate of loved ones in hell because God will remove your memory of them.

    Thank you. That sounds quite horrible, to be honest.
     
  19. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Sorry? I think you missed something out when quoting me.
    Also, can I clarify? Do you believe that in heaven you will remember any family members who happen to be in hell?
     
  20. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I think you know what I meant.

    Where did I ever say anything like this? Do you have good evidence that God exists? If not, I am not interested. If a God exists there should be good evidence to believe He does, no matter what He is.



    Give me 100% absolute evidence that these are true please.
     
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