How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

[Par5]

Sorry the audio quality isn't so good....

My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell (you can listen to 9 minutes for a taste)

About Hell and The Lake of Fire (6 minutes)

Just the excerpts of this that are on YouTube: The Glory of the Punishment

I listened to a few minutes of his sermons and it only took me those few minutes to reach the conclusion that this guy is a whacko. Not exactly constructive criticism I know, but how constructive can you be about absolute nonsense?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Isn't dissatisfaction a sort of torment? And if people are dissatisfied, can't they be deeply tormented about what is dissatisfying them?

I don't think we could say that dissatisfaction is a sort of torment, no.

Possibly, Satan had fear of not being above all others. Right now, maybe we are seeing how certain politicians are in torment of fear of not having their own way. And "fear of death" is Satan's way of keeping people in slavery to him > Hebrews 2:14-15. So, I see a connection between Satan and his torment about not having his own way, and sharing this with humans . . . so humans have fear and torment about not having the lives they dictate they have to have.

That seems extremely tenuous and doesn't seem to bear the weight of your argument.

We bear that fact that they made their own choices; we don't like it, to say the least. We offered them our example, and they rejected us; no, we do not like being rejected by our own family and ones who were supposed to be our close friends. But certainly we are not going to let their choices decide if we enjoy God and Heaven.

Consider the feelings of a parent, as a good example of one person who loves another. Imagine a loving parent seeing their child suffering in terrible pain, even if it was caused by their own choices. Yes, the parent might have an attitude of tough love. Yes, the parent might conceivably think that they did everything they could, and could do no more.
But do you think that any parent could be happy, seeing their child in agony?

Well, I do not think hell is what any evil person deserves. But sin is not fair. We reap so much more than our little seeds that we sow. We can get a harvest of thorns and torment, or a harvest of feeding on love.

When you say that hell is not what any evil person deserves - well, I agree with you absolutely. But who was it who created hell and maintains it?

In any case, I would be quite stupid to keep on suffering about people who have invested seeds of selfish loving and living . . . including after rejecting the people and their example, of how we can share with God, instead.

Would you really have this attitude about a person you love? Your child, or mother, or best friend? "Oh well, they had every chance, and they chose to go to hell. Never mind! I'll just carry on enjoying heaven."

 

[Par5]

Tinker Grey says this thread makes him think of heaven as being a horror of eternal tedium. I agree with him on that.
For those who see themselves spending eternity in heaven, what do you believe you will be doing for all eternity.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This is a reasonable question for people that believe in a literal hell. If my mom, wife or kids are in heaven and they are truly happy knowing I am in hell, then they are no longer my mom, wife or kids as I know them. They have been changed into someone else.

Well, exactly.

Perhaps eternal schadenfreude is a sacrament of Heaven?

According to Augustine, Edwards and many others - yes, it is. A great delight to see the tortures of the damned!

Every time I see the title of this thread, I think rather the horror of eternal tedium.

That is another point well worth making. How could any mind not crumble in eternity?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

No support? 0.0%? Hmm. I wonder.

Romans 7

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c]">[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Matthew 13

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”



This is true. I will leave them to speak for themselves.

Honestly - yes. no support at all. I don't think you can make a case for the human soul being split into good and evil, and have never heard any Christians say such a thing.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It depends on what Hell is exactly. Will you please describe in detail the Hell you are referring to?

It depends on what hell Christians believe in. Myself, I believe in no hell at all. Some Christians do not believe in hell either, and so this thread would presumably not interest them. Some Christians believe in a temporary hell, and so this thread would probably not interest them much either. But there are plenty of Christians who believe that there is a literal and eternal hell, and it is for them that this thread asks the question: how could you be happy in heaven while your loved ones are suffering in agony in hell?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I agree that the two ideas are in conflict.

Thank you. I think so.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It depends on what hell Christians believe in. Myself, I believe in no hell at all. Some Christians do not believe in hell either, and so this thread would presumably not interest them. Some Christians believe in a temporary hell, and so this thread would probably not interest them much either. But there are plenty of Christians who believe that there is a literal and eternal hell, and it is for them that this thread asks the question: how could you be happy in heaven while your loved ones are suffering in agony in hell?

I posted something, but after reading what you said here it didn't answer the question.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It depends on what hell Christians believe in. Myself, I believe in no hell at all. Some Christians do not believe in hell either, and so this thread would presumably not interest them. Some Christians believe in a temporary hell, and so this thread would probably not interest them much either. But there are plenty of Christians who believe that there is a literal and eternal hell, and it is for them that this thread asks the question: how could you be happy in heaven while your loved ones are suffering in agony in hell?

You must have some idea what hell is if you think loved ones are going to suffer to the point we should feel terrible.

Not enough information to answer the question, and its not just you, no one including myself, can really put their finger on exactly what hell entails.

It's as if we weren't meant to know exactly.

 

[JohnClay]

I'm sorry - what I meant is, I live in China and can't access youtube.....

Hopefully you are able to access the links in post #58....

 

[mmksparbud]

Tinker Grey says this thread makes him think of heaven as being a horror of eternal tedium. I agree with him on that.
For those who see themselves spending eternity in heaven, what do you believe you will be doing for all eternity.

I will plant many vinyards---different types of grapes for grape juice. I will have all sorts of flowers in the front of the house, all the different kinds of fruit trees and berries in the back---travel not only all over this planet, but any [lanet I want to go visist. I can stand o0n the surface mof the sun and not be harmed. I will visit all my old friends and new ones, and they will never die. I'll run with horses and play with lions and tigers, and bears, and have the biggest wolves to wrestle on the grass with. Dive into the deepest lakes and visit with all the water animals, ride the whales and dolphins and friendly sharks ___no unfriendly ones! There are endless things I wll do---learn new musical instruments, learn to sng with the angels, praising the Father and the Son, talk with my gaurdian angel about how many times he stepped in and saved my life. Talk with all the characters in the bible, including Adam and Eve. But best of all---I will spend as long as I want talking with Jesus. Anything I don't know He will teach me. There is a lot more. Not enough room here to tell about everything I'll be doing. One thing I know----I will not be bored!

 

[Par5]

I will plant many vinyards---different types of grapes for grape juice. I will have all sorts of flowers in the front of the house, all the different kinds of fruit trees and berries in the back---travel not only all over this planet, but any [lanet I want to go visist. I can stand o0n the surface mof the sun and not be harmed. I will visit all my old friends and new ones, and they will never die. I'll run with horses and play with lions and tigers, and bears, and have the biggest wolves to wrestle on the grass with. Dive into the deepest lakes and visit with all the water animals, ride the whales and dolphins and friendly sharks ___no unfriendly ones! There are endless things I wll do---learn new musical instruments, learn to sng with the angels, praising the Father and the Son, talk with my gaurdian angel about how many times he stepped in and saved my life. Talk with all the characters in the bible, including Adam and Eve. But best of all---I will spend as long as I want talking with Jesus. Anything I don't know He will teach me. There is a lot more. Not enough room here to tell about everything I'll be doing. One thing I know----I will not be bored!

My, but you intend to be a real busy beaver. I would ask you one thing though. How do you know you will be doing all these things? It sounds like an adventure activity holiday. Is there a brochure?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry the audio quality isn't so good....

My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell (you can listen to 9 minutes for a taste)

About Hell and The Lake of Fire (6 minutes)

Just the excerpts of this that are on YouTube: The Glory of the Punishment

Thank you, John, for the effort!
I shall certainly listen to them and let you know my thoughts.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I will plant many vinyards---different types of grapes for grape juice. I will have all sorts of flowers in the front of the house, all the different kinds of fruit trees and berries in the back---travel not only all over this planet, but any [lanet I want to go visist. I can stand o0n the surface mof the sun and not be harmed. I will visit all my old friends and new ones, and they will never die. I'll run with horses and play with lions and tigers, and bears, and have the biggest wolves to wrestle on the grass with. Dive into the deepest lakes and visit with all the water animals, ride the whales and dolphins and friendly sharks ___no unfriendly ones! There are endless things I wll do---learn new musical instruments, learn to sng with the angels, praising the Father and the Son, talk with my gaurdian angel about how many times he stepped in and saved my life. Talk with all the characters in the bible, including Adam and Eve. But best of all---I will spend as long as I want talking with Jesus. Anything I don't know He will teach me. There is a lot more. Not enough room here to tell about everything I'll be doing. One thing I know----I will not be bored!

My, but you intend to be a real busy beaver. I would ask you one thing though. How do you know you will be doing all these things? It sounds like an adventure activity holiday. Is there a brochure?

mmksparbud, I'd like to ask the same question as Par5. Where are you getting this from? It sounds like you just, well, made it up, or perhaps heard it in church from someone else who made it up.
It sounds loads of fun - quite the perfect vacation! But don't you think it'll get a bit boring after the first few thousand years or so, when you've chatted with all the biblical heroes and learned to be a virtuoso on every instrument and reviewed your whole life and mastered calculus and taken painting lessons from Monet and done everything you want to? How about after a few million years? A few trillion? A trillion trillion?

Forever is a long time. Longer than we can possibly imagine, which may explain why Christians (in those descriptions I've heard of them imagining heaven) tend not to imagine it.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Do you really think we'd just accept you trying to tell us to think this was only wishful or "childish"?

I'm really asking. Do you really imagine people would buy that?

As many here will already know, it's not wishful or hopefull guessing or imagining.

Rather, it's the surprising information given in scripture.

It would not be available to the superficial reader (who doesn't read through).

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

I think, Halbhh (and @True Counterphobia may be interested in this as well) that you have misinterpreted Isaiah. You have to read it in context, and understand what he was saying. He was not prophesying Jesus Christ's second coming. He was not talking about Jesus at all. Isaiah was talking about the nation of Israel, not individual worshippers of God. He was saying that Israel's sins would be forgotten, and that God would forget and forgive all the things they had done wrong.

That aside, however, what you appear to believe is that in heaven, you will quite simply forget the sufferings of any loved ones you have who are in hell. Is that correct?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

But...people that do not love are rejecting Him in a very total way == 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

and

As I think of it, people that love will likely be saved -- God can find a way to turn them as needed:
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
He already has His eyes on them.

That's nice. So that means I shall go to heaven, because I am an atheist who is a very loving person.

And, honestly, we'd not really want people in heaven with us forever that just outright refused to love us without ever turning from that wrong and just continuing in that cruelty their whole life, who always rejected us --

and

We can't force others to accept love and grace. Think on what it means to reject love and grace one's whole life.

So if I understand correctly, you are saying that if you went to heaven and your loved ones - your little child, your mother, your best friend from childhood, whoever - went to hell, then you would either:
1. Completely forget about them, so that while they suffered for eternity you would be enjoying paradise.
2. Be happy that they went to hell, because you don't want them in heaven.

Is that correct?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You must have some idea what hell is if you think loved ones are going to suffer to the point we should feel terrible.

Not enough information to answer the question, and its not just you, no one including myself, can really put their finger on exactly what hell entails.

It's as if we weren't meant to know exactly.

Well, of course, as an atheist, I don't think there is a hell to describe in the first place.
And it's true, nobody I have ever met, read or heard of has been able to give a perfect description of hell.
However, many Christians have told me or written that hell is a Very Bad Place, in which the condemned soul will suffer endlessly. For the purposes of this thread, that would seem to be sufficient for me to ask Christians how they would feel if they were in heaven and loved ones were in hell.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I posted something, but after reading what you said here it didn't answer the question.

Fair enough!

 

[mmksparbud]

My, but you intend to be a real busy beaver. I would ask you one thing though. How do you know you will be doing all these things? It sounds like an adventure activity holiday. Is there a brochure?

All it says is that we can not imagine the things God has in store for us. The blble does give hints here and there---it does say we will build houses, we will plant things, there wil be animals, there will be no 0cean, but nothing states that there will not be large lakes. At the first creation God made animals. It says the lion will lie down with the Lamb. God instructed Adam and Eve to tend the garden, so we will have gardens. It is fun to think of all the possibilties. I oftern think about it, usually when I'm in bed, I fall asleep thinking about things we will be able to do. It says we will drink the juice of the vines, so there must be cups and plates and utensils---I've allways had an interst in pottery making and hope I get to learn that. We have no end of things to do-God means for us to be productive. Not sitting around on clouds playing our harps--maybe learn to paint---besides stick figures! We can develop any skill God has given us over centuries. \We will have a country home and a city home at least---Jesus said He has gone to prepare a place for us. We will be in heaven for those 1000 years first, so we have the city homes Jesus Himself has made for us. Then we come back to earth---Jesus remakes it, and we get to build our own home, or homes, wherever we want. Some things we don't know---will we be able to cook or is everything just plucked off the trees and vines ---I love to cook and wonder about that. And then there would be pots and pans---I'll take a gold and copper set --- I love to bake, wonder if we will be able to --which then involves wheat and making flour---I can go on all night about it!!---diamond door knobs!! You can get very crazy with this---it does say the streets are paved with gold!

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry the audio quality isn't so good....

My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell (you can listen to 9 minutes for a taste)

About Hell and The Lake of Fire (6 minutes)

Just the excerpts of this that are on YouTube: The Glory of the Punishment

Well. Phew.
I do not think he is a very nice man at all.
It is possible that he really believes what he is saying, in which case I think his religious beliefs have made him into an evil person.
But I think it's far more likely he knows what tugs at the heart strings - and, quite possibly, the purse strings - of his congregation, and makes up exciting stories to shame them into being more fervent.