How certain are we that God forgives habitual sin?

[Basil the Great]

My Great Grandfather was a deeply religious man. He died when I was only 10, but I still remember him well. It appears that he was raised a Methodist and then became a Baptst when he married Great Grama. I asked grampa a month or two before he died, when he was living in our home, if God would forgive us if we kept sinning the same sin over and over again. Believe it ot not, he actually told me "no", that God would not. I told my Great Aunt, his daughter, about this many years later and she replied "I don't think that grampa's response was Scriptural".

Now I am not sure what my Great Grandfather meant by his response, but one can certainly take from his answer that he believed that those Christians who are trapped in habitual sin will not be saved. This kind of theology appears to be the opposite of what most Baptists believe today, though I do not know what Baptists believed around 1900, about the year that grampa probably became a Baptist.

Great Grampa's maternal grandparents were raised Mennonites in PA, though they later became Methodists in the mid-1800's when they left PA. I wonder if perhaps Great Grampa's belief was handed down to him by his maternal grandparents, who were also reportedly very religious, at least according to Gr.Gr.Gr. Grampa's obituary? I placed this post on the Anabaptist board a few months back. Apparently at least today, only a small number of Mennonites subscribe to such a strict viewpoint.

Now I know how what most Christians believe and especially most Baptists and even myself at times. However, I cannot get my Great Grandfather's words out of my mind. Some verses of Scripture do talk about adulterers and others not inheriting the Kingdom. Hence, can we really be certain that those Christians who are trapped in habitual sin for years and even decades will be saved? As we all know, some people fight alcoholism and/or drug abuse for many years, even their entire adult life. Others have sexual affairs throughout their entire marriage. Others are spousal abusers for most or all of their married life. Others commit the sin of gluttony for decades.

Again, I want to believe that God will forgive us, regardless of how we have lived, at least in terms of allowing us into Heaven. However, I honestly am not certain and the longer I live and see so many Christians live unholy lives, I really wonder if maybe Great Grampa was right? Maybe their is a limit to God's forgiveness?

This thread was inspired by my reading of another thread on this board, wherein one poster actually said that some Baptists believe like the EOC and the RCC, that both works and faith are important to salvation. I would like to remind all of us that Jesus taught that many will call him "Lord", but that he will turn to some of them and say "I never knew you. Depart from me you evildoers." This would certainly seem to indicate that there are a lot of Christians who will be sadly disappointed on Judgment Day and that many of those who have called Jesus "Lord", will in fact be rejected by Him.

Again, I ask what could well be a critical question in terms of salvation, can we really be certain that God forgives habitual sin and that if someone dies while still trapped in habitual sin, that they will still be saved if they had faith in Christ?

 

[kranberrydude]

Again, I ask what could well be a critical question in terms of salvation, can we really be certain that God forgives habitual sin and that if someone dies while still trapped in habitual sin, that they will still be saved if they had faith in Christ?

if you really have faith in Christ, you do not live in habitual sin.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(I John 3:6) 6 Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him, neither knows him.

(I John 2:4) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.

 

[RobertZ]

if you really have faith in Christ, you do not live in habitual sin.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(I John 3:6) 6 Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him, neither knows him.

(I John 2:4) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.

Hebrews 10:26 is a specific sin in which the Jews continue to practice the old covenant laws after hearing about Christ. To do this is to reject the only sacrafice for your sins which is found in Christ Jesus alone.

Just wanted to mention that because their is a lot of confusion about this particular passage of scripture.

 

[RobertZ]

My Great Grandfather was a deeply religious man. He died when I was only 10, but I still remember him well. It appears that he was raised a Methodist and then became a Baptst when he married Great Grama. I asked grampa a month or two before he died, when he was living in our home, if God would forgive us if we kept sinning the same sin over and over again. Believe it ot not, he actually told me "no", that God would not. I told my Great Aunt, his daughter, about this many years later and she replied "I don't think that grampa's response was Scriptural".

Now I am not sure what my Great Grandfather meant by his response, but one can certainly take from his answer that he believed that those Christians who are trapped in habitual sin will not be saved. This kind of theology appears to be the opposite of what most Baptists believe today, though I do not know what Baptists believed around 1900, about the year that grampa probably became a Baptist.

Great Grampa's maternal grandparents were raised Mennonites in PA, though they later became Methodists in the mid-1800's when they left PA. I wonder if perhaps Great Grampa's belief was handed down to him by his maternal grandparents, who were also reportedly very religious, at least according to Gr.Gr.Gr. Grampa's obituary? I placed this post on the Anabaptist board a few months back. Apparently at least today, only a small number of Mennonites subscribe to such a strict viewpoint.

Now I know how what most Christians believe and especially most Baptists and even myself at times. However, I cannot get my Great Grandfather's words out of my mind. Some verses of Scripture do talk about adulterers and others not inheriting the Kingdom. Hence, can we really be certain that those Christians who are trapped in habitual sin for years and even decades will be saved? As we all know, some people fight alcoholism and/or drug abuse for many years, even their entire adult life. Others have sexual affairs throughout their entire marriage. Others are spousal abusers for most or all of their married life. Others commit the sin of gluttony for decades.

Again, I want to believe that God will forgive us, regardless of how we have lived, at least in terms of allowing us into Heaven. However, I honestly am not certain and the longer I live and see so many Christians live unholy lives, I really wonder if maybe Great Grampa was right? Maybe their is a limit to God's forgiveness?

This thread was inspired by my reading of another thread on this board, wherein one poster actually said that some Baptists believe like the EOC and the RCC, that both works and faith are important to salvation. I would like to remind all of us that Jesus taught that many will call him "Lord", but that he will turn to some of them and say "I never knew you. Depart from me you evildoers." This would certainly seem to indicate that there are a lot of Christians who will be sadly disappointed on Judgment Day and that many of those who have called Jesus "Lord", will in fact be rejected by Him.

Again, I ask what could well be a critical question in terms of salvation, can we really be certain that God forgives habitual sin and that if someone dies while still trapped in habitual sin, that they will still be saved if they had faith in Christ?

Hey, I remember reading this exact post from you a few months back. Just wondering why you made a duplicate?

 

[Basil the Great]

Did I place the post on this board? I did not think I did. Sorry. I will look for it now then.

 

[RobertZ]

Did I place the post on this board? I did not think I did. Sorry. I will look for it now then.

No its okay brother, I just remember reading it somewhere on this site.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

If this is true then Jesus's death is a selective atonement, atoning only the sins that we commit once. Also, it would only cover the sins that we commit before we are saved because if we sin after we accept Christ, we then become lost. The entire concept is flawed and indeed not backed by scripture.

Jesus's death covers all sins, it is not selective.

 

[Skala]

Sounds like works-based salvation to me.

That being said, I think scripture also teaches that God doesn't just save us from the wrath to come, but from sin an its dominion over us.

No longer slaves to sin, but to Christ.

How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?

If a person claims to be saved yet there is no evidence of fruit (a good tree bears good fruit) they are probably not saved to begin with. No such thing as a saved person becoming unsaved, but there is such a thing as a person who isn't really saved, but claims to be.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hebrews 10:26 is a specific sin in which the Jews continue to practice the old covenant laws after hearing about Christ. To do this is to reject the only sacrafice for your sins which is found in Christ Jesus alone.

Just wanted to mention that because their is a lot of confusion about this particular passage of scripture.

Who told you that and why did you believe what they told you instead of what the Bible says?

Heb. 10:19. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20. by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21. and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22. let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24. and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Christ or Judgment
26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

Romans 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (NASB, 1995)

Notice especially Rom. 6:5,

5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Those Christians who have been united with Christ in the likeness of His death, shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection; those Christians who have not—for them there is no such promise.

 

[RobertZ]

Who told you that and why did you believe what they told you instead of what the Bible says?

Do you honestly think that I just took someones word without diligently studying the book of Hebrews to see for myself if what was said was correct?

BTW many commentaries from great Bible scholars have done a thorough job of explaining the hebrews 10:26-29 passage and most come to the exact same conclusion because after all Hebrews was written to the Jews who were considering turning their backs on Christ and going back to the OT laws, once a person has learned about Christ their remains no more sacrafice for sins if they choose to return to the practice of animal sacrafices because Christ is the only sacrafice for sins!


Im not implying that a believer will continue on in willfull sin either because I believe that one whom has been saved will not continue to make a habitual practice of sin.

 

[RobertZ]

http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/hebrews-10-26-29-a-32846/

 

[kranberrydude]

i believe habitual sin is a sign that you are not serious in following Jesus.

 

[billybtennessee]

Habitual sin does not show real repentance, it is a dangerous place to stay. One is also allowing flesh to rule over the Holy Spirit, which definitely grieves Him. One is doubting the power that is in the blood of Jesus Christ, to cleanse and purge the conscience of sin. Jesus Christ defeated sin, and those following Him do not walk around in defeat, who abide in Him. Gods will for the believer is their sanctification, completely, 1st Thess. 4:3-8, 5:23. We are 'created unto good works', 'that we should walk in them', Eph. 2:10. Predestined to 'be conformed to the image of His Son', Rom. 8:29. None of these involve 'habitual sin'.

It is a dangerous place to be, and most definitely if one stays there willfully. Don't matter what church doctrine one quotes.

 

[RobertZ]

i believe habitual sin is a sign that you are not serious in following Jesus.

Absolutely.

 

[kranberrydude]

Christ is love and when your actions are that of love you abide in Christ, and He in you, because He is love. But when one lives in sin, one abides in sin and sin in him not Jesus.

 

[faceofbear]

I don't think any of us are seriously following Jesus. We just rationale Christ's commands to our minds and think we're following Him seriously. We lower His standard.

 

[Basil the Great]

I must say that the answers I have received here by Baptists have greatly surprised me. Just about everyone here may disagree with me, but I am beginning to see what the one poster meant in another current thread when he said that some Baptists believe a lot like the RCC and the EOC re: salvation. Sorry, but I just do not see any real difference between the answers given here and the position of the RCC and the EOC. The bottom line of the RCC and the EOC, as well as many of you here, is that actions do play a role in whether or not one is saved. Don't get me wrong. I believe this also. I am just very surprised to see you folks effectively admitting such, even though you will probably deny it.

Now many Protestants may say that we are saved solely by faith, but that unless there is evidence of a saving faith, such as the removal of habitual sin from a Christian's life, then he/she is not on the road to salvation, as he has not truly accepted Christ. As far as I am concerned, for all practical purposes, this thesis is the same as the RCC position (and possibly the EOC position also) which states that we are saved by faith in Christ, but that whether or not there is the stain of grave sin on one's soul at time of death is critical to determining whether one is saved or not. The difference between the two belief systems seems virtually meaningless.

 

[billybtennessee]

Habitual sin does not show real repentance, it is a dangerous place to stay. One is also allowing flesh to rule over the Holy Spirit, which definitely grieves Him. One is doubting the power that is in the blood of Jesus Christ, to cleanse and purge the conscience of sin. Jesus Christ defeated sin, and those following Him do not walk around in defeat, who abide in Him. Gods will for the believer is their sanctification, completely, 1st Thess. 4:3-8, 5:23. We are 'created unto good works', 'that we should walk in them', Eph. 2:10. Predestined to 'be conformed to the image of His Son', Rom. 8:29. None of these involve 'habitual sin'.

It is a dangerous place to be, and most definitely if one stays there willfully. Don't matter what church doctrine one quotes.

I don't know about everyone else, but what I wrote about 'habitual' sin, is all Biblical, and the verses are right here, and more can be provided.

In reference to being the same, 'soteriologically', and I hope that is spelled correct, there are many things OC and RC believe as concerning salvation that are not the same as baptist. Such as seven sacraments, prayer for the dead, purgatory, indulgences, mediatory prayer through mary. Each one they would regard as pertaining to ones salvation.

Your statement is not very specific, but hopefully you can see that what has been said as concerning 'habitual sin', certainly does not mean we are the same. What about 'born again', 'new creation', has anything, at all, in common with habitual, unrepentant sin?

 

[Hammster]

i believe habitual sin is a sign that you are not serious in following Jesus.

Or, it shows you even more how much you need a Savior.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hebrews 10:26 is a specific sin in which the Jews continue to practice the old covenant laws after hearing about Christ. To do this is to reject the only sacrafice for your sins which is found in Christ Jesus alone.

Just wanted to mention that because their is a lot of confusion about this particular passage of scripture.

Do you honestly think that I just took someones word without diligently studying the book of Hebrews to see for myself if what was said was correct?

BTW many commentaries from great Bible scholars have done a thorough job of explaining the hebrews 10:26-29 passage and most come to the exact same conclusion because after all Hebrews was written to the Jews who were considering turning their backs on Christ and going back to the OT laws, once a person has learned about Christ their remains no more sacrafice for sins if they choose to return to the practice of animal sacrafices because Christ is the only sacrafice for sins!


Im not implying that a believer will continue on in willfull sin either because I believe that one whom has been saved will not continue to make a habitual practice of sin.

I am not aware of even one exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Hebrews that says that the author of the epistle is writing about Jewish Christians returning “to the practice of animal sacrifices,” or limiting the author’s use of the word “sinning” to any particular kind of sin. Indeed, the Greek word in Hebrews 10:26 translated as “sinning” is the most commonly used Greek word for all kinds of sin, and the context does not allow for any other meaning of the word. Commentaries on Hebrews by men who are not scholars of the Greek language and who have an over-active imagination are more than likely to lead astray anyone who relies upon them.

Would you care to list for us some of the “many commentaries from great Bible scholars” who “have done a thorough job of explaining the Hebrews 10:26-29 passage,” and then tell us which of them “come to the exact same conclusion” that you did? I have in my personal library 27 commentaries on Hebrews written by scholars and Bible teachers representing a wide spectrum of theological thought, and none of them come to a conclusion even remotely like yours.

For discussions by current Baptist scholars of the use of the word “sinning” in Hebrews 10:26, see the following:

Allen, David L. Hebrews. The New American Commentary, Volume 35. Nashville: B. & H. Publishing Group. 2010.

Schreiner, Thomas R. and Ardel B. Caneday. The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance. Westmont: InterVarsity Press. 2001.