How certain are we that God forgives habitual sin?

[thegospelisgoodnews]

If your truly saved, "that is the Holy Ghost resides inside of you" then you will never apostasize because he that began a good work in you WILL carry it on to completion unto the day of Christ Jesus.

Its those who are exposed to the Gospel over and over again yet never become saved are the ones who are in danger of falling away forever because if they do not respond to the Gospel call they will only harden their hearts towards it and eventually will reach a point in the heart hardening process which will make it impossible for them to ever respond to the Gospel Message.

What could they fall away from?, you said they were never saved, How do you fall away from not responding, your already in a fallen state, doesn't everyones faith start with a "seed" some grow to producing fruit, others get choked out by the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of this world. of course in your mind, It isn't any of the reasons Jesus gives, for a seed not growing to produce fruit, its just they weren't chosen to grow right!....lol but thats a whole different debacle

 

[RobertZ]

What could they fall away from?, you said they were never saved, How do you fall away from not responding, your already in a fallen state, doesn't everyones faith start with a "seed" some grow to producing fruit, others get choked out by the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of this world. of course in your mind, It isn't any of the reasons Jesus gives, for a seed not growing to produce fruit, its just they weren't chosen to grow right!....lol but thats a whole different debacle

You clearly dont understand and are taking what I said completely out of context. Go back and read the commentaries from John Mcarther that I posted for a clear explenation of what is being said in regards to apostasy.

Those who commit apostasy are the ones who professed at one time in their lives to know Christ but the truth is that they never truly embraced him as their Lord and Savior in the first place. The Gospel either saves a person or it hardens them and naturally those who refuse the grace of God and Salvation will only become hardened and given enough time will totally and completely fall away once and for all.

 

[98cwitr]

The idea of "falling away" is like the seed that grows and then withers. It's only a humanistic perception and is only means to an end.

 

[RobertZ]

of course in your mind, It isn't any of the reasons Jesus gives, for a seed not growing to produce fruit, its just they weren't chosen to grow right!....lol but thats a whole different debacle

Dont start, thats not even what I said.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You still dont get it, do you? Hint: Its not the quote that im laughing about, obviously. I reposted that quote because he states EXACTLY what it is that I was talking about the whole time and you then come along stating that he doesnt teach it, did you even bother to read the quote from him? obviously not.

As for replying directly to you I no more mentioned your name or replied directly to yourself than what you did when you continued to carry on to others using my name and claiming that I was making false accusations against Biblical Scholars.

This is the whole reason to start with that I wasnt interested in debating with you because even after you have been presented with enough evidence to show your in the wrong you continue to straw man and twist everything around to fit your twisted theology.

I know what you were laughing at, and, when correctly understood, my posts show very clearly that I know what you are laughing at. However, you copied and pasted from a quote posted by student ad x (along with his typographical errors) from a book by Thomas Schreiner that you have never read, and it is obvious that you have never read the book by Schreiner and Caneday that asked you to read, The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance, in which they explain in detail their understanding of the Heb. 10:26. Moreover, it is obvious that you are not familiar with Schreiner, his many published works, and his theology—and yet you are insisting that your interpretation of two short quotes from him taken out of context is accurate and that I, who am familiar with Schreiner, his many published works, and his theology, am incorrectly interpreting the quotes and twisting everything around to fit my “twisted theology.”

Moreover, if you were at all familiar with Schreiner’s theology, you would know that he and I interpret the Bible VERY differently from each other; that is, if you understand the theological position that I defend and expound upon in many of my posts. Furthermore, the theological position that I defend and expound upon in many of my posts is the theological position of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon—the theological position of the Church before its theology became contaminated with the systematic theologies of men who arrogantly believed that they understood the New Testament very much more accurately than the early Christians who were members of the same churches in which the Apostles themselves preached and taught!

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

You clearly dont understand and are taking what I said completely out of context. Go back and read the commentaries from John Mcarther that I posted for a clear explenation of what is being said in regards to apostasy.

Those who commit apostasy are the ones who professed at one time in their lives to know Christ but the truth is that they never truly embraced him as their Lord and Savior in the first place. The Gospel either saves a person or it hardens them and naturally those who refuse the grace of God and Salvation will only become hardened and given enough time will totally and completely fall away once and for all.

I don't base my beliefs on some guys commentary, the bible is the only commentary I rely on.

 

[RobertZ]

I don't base my beliefs on some guys commentary, the bible is the only commentary I rely on.

I never said you should base your beliefs on "some guys" commentary, you said that.


However there is absolutely nothing wrong with studying a commentary in order to get a better understanding of the scripture "in question" so long as the source is coming from a true man of God.

 

[RobertZ]

if you understand the theological position that I defend and expound upon in many of my posts.

What other reason do you think it is that I have for not caring to debate with you?

 

[98cwitr]

from a true man of God.

Few and far between

 

[RobertZ]

Few and far between

Yes indeed, there are many wolfs in sheeps clothing in this world and a few of them roam around in these forums. Thats why we must be careful who we listen too and trust for counsel.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

What could they fall away from?

Their faith in Christ.

The notion that the people in Hebrews 10:23-31 were not born-again believers in Christ is ludicrous for many reason, including the fact that the author of the epistle, in verse 23, includes himself among the Jews being warned of the danger of apostasy! Most certainly, the author was a born-again Christian.

John MacArthur is a fine gentleman, but he lacks a thorough knowledge of the grammar, vocabulary, and phraseology of the Early Church and is severely handicapped by his staunch theological presuppositions that do not allow him to understand correctly the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Among Baptists, there are five popular and distinctively different interpretations of Heb. 10:23-31.

23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24. and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Christ or Judgment
26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on {the testimony of} two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

For a detailed analysis and discussion of these five interpretations, see the book, The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance, by Thomas R. Schreiner and Ardel B. Caneday published by InterVarsity Press, 2001, and the commentary on Hebrews (Volume 35 in “The New American Commentary” series) by David L. Allen.

Thomas R. Schreiner (http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/thomas-schreiner/) and David L. Allen http://www.swbts.edu/index.cfm?pageid=795&enc=495E4B4A5433392C23442550425020415379 show from a very detailed exegesis of the warning passages in Hebrews that Jewish Christians rather than nearly converted Jews are in view, but they disagree with one another as to the extent of the apostasy. Schreiner believes that it is complete; Allen does not. Schreiner, however, believes that these warning passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews are used by God to contribute to the perseverance of the saints—a view that is very uncommon among Reformed Baptists even though Schreiner is a Reformed Baptist himself.

 

[98cwitr]

So essentially we can snatch ourselves out of God's hand?

Loophole?

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[student ad x]

The author (of Hebrews) addresses those in the church who were tempted to revert to Judaism in order to avoid discrimination and persecution. He does not cast a glance backward, contemplate the state of those who have lapsed, and ask whether they were genuine believers. He is walking forward, urging the readers to adhere to the gospel and continue in the faith until the return of Christ. The warning is prospective, designed to prevent the readers from drifting away from the gospel that they embrace. Certainly the author hopes that his warnings will function as one of the means by which the readers will be impeded from apostasy. The author does not say that they will not turn away from the good news that they believed.. Thomas R. Schreiner: pg 596 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

The warning in Hebrews 10:26-39 supports the claim that the sin in view is apostasy. Willful persistence in sin refers to deliberate sin, which is identified in the O.T. as sin "with a high hand," for which there is no forgiveness (cf. Lev. 4:2,22,27; Num. 15:30; Deut. 17:12; Ps. 19:13). for those who sin willfully "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" (Heb. 10:26). In other words, if the readers turn away from the cross of Christ for the cleansing of their sins and consciences, no other sacrifice will avail. (118)[Lindars - 1991:69 "Paradoxically they are turning away from the means of reconciliation in the endeavor to find it."] Reverting to the O.T. cult will not offer any help, for animal sacrifices cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4). If the readers rely on such sacrifices for forgiveness, they deny the efficacy of
Christ's atonement and thus cut themselves off from the only means by which sins can be forgiven. The threadt of judgment, fire, vengeance, and recompense points to the final judgment inflicted by God upon unbelievers who tramples on Jesus as God's Son, treats Jesus' blood as it were defiled and unclean instead of precious, and outrages the Spirit that gives grace (Heb. 10:29). The reference to the Lord's judging of his people, if they undergo judgment, for they claimed to be his people but denied them by their works. Thomas R. Schreiner; pg. 588-589 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

New Testament Theology: Magnifying God in Christ - Thomas R. Schreiner c 2008; Baker Academic

From the ESV Study Bible - Crossway 2008 pg. 2378-2379

Heb. 10:26–39 Warnings against Shrinking Back. The author warns of the impending judgment upon those who willfully reject the faith. Yet his purpose is to exhort the readers in their faith, a faith that he affirms based on their past perseverance.
Heb. 10:26–27 sinning deliberately. Willfully sinning and refusing to repent. after receiving. The author refers especially to people within the Christian community, who have thus heard the truth. The fact that they “go on sinning deliberately even after receiving knowledge of the truth” indicates that the people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers; that is, these are people who have never genuinely embraced the gospel in a way that has resulted in a life of faith, obedience, and the bearing of fruit. no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. This could refer to the inability of willful, unrepentant sinners to be restored (see 6:4–6), or more likely to the fact that there is no place for them to turn for forgiveness outside of Christ's sacrifice—which they have rejected. judgment. All people face judgment (see 9:27–28), and apart from Christ's sacrifice his adversaries receive eternal damnation. These verses, then, function as a means used by God to call genuine Christians to faith, obedience, and perseverance; and, if there is no evidence of fruit in one's life, to challenge such people to give fearful consideration as to whether they are in fact genuine believers.
Heb. 10:28–29 These verses argue from the lesser to the greater (cf. 2:1–4; 9:14). In the Mosaic law, the death penalty comes upon those who blaspheme God or who worship other deities (e.g., Lev. 24:13–16; Deut. 17:2–7), so in the superior new covenant the expectation of judgment would be even stronger. How much worse punishment … will be deserved by the one who … ? The description that follows is of a person who has deliberately, consciously, and persistently deserted “the living God” (cf. Heb. 3:12; 10:31; 12:22), renouncing Christ and the community of faith (6:4–8). It is a description of outright apostasy, involving a person who has done three specific things: (1) spurned the Son of God, (2) profaned the blood of the covenant, and (3) outraged the Spirit of grace. Such rejection of the knowledge of the truth (10:26) through willful disobedience is tantamount to trampling upon God's Son, reckoning his blood to be defiled, and insulting the Spirit who has offered such grace; the one who does this deserves eternal judgment (v. 27). Some have argued that the statement by which he was sanctified (Gk. hagiazo, “set apart,” “sanctify&#8221 indicates that the person in view here was a true believer. Given the immediate context, it seems most likely that “he was sanctified” should be understood in the sense of someone who had been “set apart” or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by denying the “knowledge of the truth” that he had heard, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person's apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. Another view is that the author is confident that the grave warning in these verses will be the means by which those who are truly elect will be braced to persevere in faith and obedience, and so to be saved (see note on 6:4–8).
Heb. 10:30–31 The living God (cf. 3:12; 9:14; 12:22) is here portrayed through two citations from Deut. 32:35–36 as the heavenly judge, who will judge even his own people.
Heb. 10:32–34 recall the former days. Having severely warned his audience, the author reminds them of the previous evidence of their faith in persevering amid suffering (see 6:9–12). enlightened. See note on 6:4. The sufferings he lists include public reproach (cf. 11:26; 13:13), imprisonments, associating with those in prison (cf. 13:3), and the plundering of their possessions. Officially sanctioned persecution seems likely here, especially regarding imprisonments. The author lauds their endurance, their compassion, and their confidence in their future, eternal better possession.
Heb. 10:35–36 Given his readers' previous perseverance through persecution (vv. 32–34), the author encourages continuing confidence (3:6; 4:16; 10:19). They are to exercise endurance (see 12:1), by practicing God's will (13:21), with the goal of inheriting the promised salvation (4:1; 6:12; 8:6; 9:15).
Heb. 10:37–38 The quote from Hab. 2:3–4 encourages perseverance; it announces that the wait for the end will be short, that faith is required from the righteous, and that “shrinking back” invites God's displeasure; and this displeasure, as the next verse clarifies, means final judgment.
Heb. 10:39 The author reasserts his confidence in the readers, associating himself with them (we). To shrink back invites divine displeasure (see v. 38) unto destruction (cf. vv. 26–27), but faith results in salvation, i.e., preservation of the soul (“life&#8221.


Hebrews - David W. Chapman
Ph.D., University of Cambridge
Associate Professor of New Testament and Biblical Archaeology, Covenant Theological Seminary

New Testament Editor
Thomas R. Schreiner
Ph.D., Fuller Theological Seminary
James Buchanan Harrison Professor of New Testament, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

General Editor
Wayne Grudem
Ph.D., University of Cambridge
Research Professor of Bible and Theology, Phoenix Seminary

 

[RobertZ]

No one who has saving faith in Christ falls away, ever. Their falling away is from a false profession never having truly believed in Christ and trusted in him alone as their savior in the first place.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."





The real obsurdity comes from someone claiming to fall from something that they truly had faith in.

 

[RobertZ]

Mathew 7:23

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".


So I must ask, how is Christ going to tell someone who supposedly lost their salvation that he never knew them?


Have fun with that one.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

From the ESV Study Bible - Crossway 2008 pg. 2378-2379

That is the standard Reformed interpretation, an interpretation that Schreiner argues against in the book that he coauthored with Ardel B. Caneday, The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance. As I have already posted, among Baptists, there are four other popular interpretations of the passage. Only one of those four interpretations is found in any extra-biblical Christian literature written prior to the Reformation—and it is the ONLY interpretation that is consistent with the grammar, vocabulary, and phraseology of The Early Church. It is also the only view found in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers—a view that is the same as the view of Schreiner except that Schreiner believes that these warning passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews are effectually used by God to contribute to the perseverance of the saints—and that no Christians, therefore, actually fall away.

Reformed interpreters of the New Testament approach the entire New Testament WITH the preconceived notion that the New Testament teaches the perseverance of all true believers. Therefore, when they read passages in the Bible that up to the Reformation were always interpreted to speak of Christians falling from grace and becoming apostates, they reinterpret them—those that are in the Epistle to the Hebrews, they reinterpret in any one of four different ways, arguing against the Reformed interpreters that interpret the passages in one of the other three ways and proving each of those three ways to be incorrect. In other words, Reformed interpreters, as a group, of the Epistle to the Hebrews have proven that all four of the Reformed interpretations are incorrect!

Non-Reformed interpreters (which include the very large majority of the interpreters, and all of them prior to the Reformation) of the New Testament approach the entire New Testament WITHOUT the preconceived notion that the New Testament teaches the perseverance of all true believers. Therefore, they carefully and prayerfully consider each passage in the Bible to learn what it teaches because, from their perspective, each individual passage may or may not speak of Christians falling from grace and becoming apostates.

Does the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews warn true believers of the danger of apostasy? The unanimous view of the Church prior to the Reformation was that he does—and that has remained the view of the large majority of Christians today. Who do you suppose wants true believers to believe that there is no danger of them committing apostasy—God, or Satan?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

So essentially we can snatch ourselves out of God's hand?

Loophole?

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.

 

[98cwitr]

I agreed with 99.9% of everything you just posted...except right here: "But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to....
nyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ."

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

And there we have it...they never belong and never were of us. No one who is a real Christian ever leaves the faith or departs from God, because they are the elect. Thus, a Christian lead by the Holy Spirit will never depart. Maybe because he will never want to, or maybe because such an action is contrary to his nature...he is a new being...or maybe it is because of the promise that the Lord gave to the elect: "No one can snatch them out of my hand." Not even themselves!

 

[Skala]

If God promises to work in us to will and do His good pleasure, does that mean when a Christian falls from the faith, God broke his promise? Or that God was not powerful enough to complete His work?

If the latter then why is Christ called the author and finisher of our faith?

There's so much scripture that is clearly against the idea that a true Christian can ever fall from the faith that it seems silly to take a single verse that sounds like the opposite and say it trumps all the rest.

Either the Hebrews passage is understood wrongly, or the 100's of other verses are understood wrongly.

It's easier to misunderstand 1 verse than it is 100 verses, is it not?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I agreed with 99.9% of everything you just posted...except right here: "But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to....
nyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ."

And there we have it...they never belong and never were of us. No one who is a real Christian ever leaves the faith or departs from God, because they are the elect. Thus, a Christian lead by the Holy Spirit will never depart. Maybe because he will never want to, or maybe because such an action is contrary to his nature...he is a new being...or maybe it is because of the promise that the Lord gave to the elect: "No one can snatch them out of my hand." Not even themselves!

Dear Sir.

1 John 2:18. Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB, 1995)

Many thousands of man hours have been invested by New Testament scholars in attempts to determine the precise nature of the community of believes to which John wrote his first epistle, but it is agreed by all scholars of the epistle that John wrote his epistle to a community of believes who were very confused and held to beliefs very different from the beliefs of the Jews to whom Jesus ministered and of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul ministered and wrote. Some people had left that community, and John refers to them in 2:28 as “antichrists,” and says that “they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” What does this have to do with the doctrine of apostasy from the Christian faith?