How certain are we that God forgives habitual sin?

[Hammster]

Come again?

It's a straw man argument against the reformed view. Saying that we hold to the notion that men have no free will. It's the classic robots/puppets analogy.

 

[98cwitr]

I believe that free will is only a perception (Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, Romans 9, 1 Peter 2:8, etc)...I guess Im not reformed either :/

1 Peter 2:8, imho, is the culminating answer to the OP.

 

[Hammster]

I believe that free will is only a perception (Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, Romans 9, 1 Peter 2:8, etc)...I guess Im not reformed either :/

1 Peter 2:8, imho, is the culminating answer to the OP.

So, you weren't free to post what you did?

 

[98cwitr]

So, you weren't free to post what you did?

Based on my perceptions I was...but it might have been destined for me to post that. The only thing I know for a fact is that I did in fact make that post and I cannot change the fact that I did at that time.

I don't think destiny is that granular though, but I do believe that everything has a reason and a purpose, and many times they are greater than ourselves.

 

[Hammster]

Based on my perceptions I was...but it might have been destined for me to post that. The only thing I know for a fact is that I did in fact make that post and I cannot change the fact that I did at that time.

I don't think destiny is that granular though, but I do believe that everything has a reason and a purpose, and many times they are greater than ourselves.

You may be confusing providence with predestination. Similar, but different.

 

[Skala]

I think the relationship between God's sovereignty and human freedom is impossible for our finite minds to grasp.

It is clear to me that the Bible teaches two truths:

1) God is sovereign and ordains and controls all things
2) Men act as they please, do what they desire, and are held morally accountable for their actions.

Just because #1 is true doesn't mean #2 isn't true, and vice versa. They are both true. God is too big and powerful to be figured out. He works this way.

Thus, our actions literally do matter, but God literally ordains/decrees whatsoever comes to pass. We can't understand this or fathom it, but it's taught all over the Bible.

The Bible is what determines what is true, not our ability to understand or reconcile things.


Act 4:27-28
(27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
(28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


Here we see that God predestined Christ to be murdered, because we know Christ's plan all along was to save sinners.

But at the same time, it was the free choice of wicked men to kill Christ. And they are held accountable for their actions.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I think the relationship between God's sovereignty and human freedom is impossible for our finite minds to grasp.

It is clear to me that the Bible teaches two truths:

1) God is sovereign and ordains and controls all things
2) Men act as they please, do what they desire, and are held morally accountable for their actions.

Just because #1 is true doesn't mean #2 isn't true, and vice versa. They are both true. God is too big and powerful to be figured out. He works this way.

Thus, our actions literally do matter, but God literally ordains/decrees whatsoever comes to pass. We can't understand this or fathom it, but it's taught all over the Bible.

The Bible is what determines what is true, not our ability to understand or reconcile things.


Act 4:27-28
(27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
(28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


Here we see that God predestined Christ to be murdered, because we know Christ's plan all along was to save sinners.

But at the same time, it was the free choice of wicked men to kill Christ. And they are held accountable for their actions.

See how its so easy to see how the biblically balanced doctrine just falls into place, no pieces that need to have their corners chiseled off, just fits like a glove. Gods ways are so far above our ways, Its wonderful to give Him credit and glory for all that He does, but I'm not sure He appreciates you giving Him credit for what satan is doing.the bible clearly shows theres another force at work here

 

[RobertZ]

but I'm not sure He appreciates you giving Him credit for what satan is doing.the bible clearly shows theres another force at work here

Satan is on a leash and can only do what God allows him to do. Also God uses evil to bring about good, Praise God he is in control of it all!

 

[Hammster]

See how its so easy to see how the biblically balanced doctrine just falls into place, no pieces that need to have their corners chiseled off, just fits like a glove. Gods ways are so far above our ways, Its wonderful to give Him credit and glory for all that He does, but I'm not sure He appreciates you giving Him credit for what satan is doing.the bible clearly shows theres another force at work here

It's not giving Him credit for what Satan is doing. It's the fact that whatever Satan does is allowed by God. Thus, God is sovereign even over the actions of Satan.

 

[98cwitr]

You may be confusing providence with predestination. Similar, but different.

How so? Currently I consider them nearly synonymous. (ie: Predestination is dictated by God's providence)

@thegospelisoffensive: See Isaiah 45:7

 

[Skala]

How so? Currently I consider them nearly synonymous

But when you're speaking theology you have to use the theological terms that everyone else understands.

Theologians refer to predestination proper as pertaining to salvation, not whether an action was supposed to happen.

That's called God's providence.

Subtle difference, but it's there.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

How so? Currently I consider them nearly synonymous. (ie: Predestination is dictated by God's providence)

@thegospelisoffensive: See Isaiah 45:7

yes He made the day and the night, the stars the moon and the planets.....I sure hope you weren't thinking of using that passage as a reference to God making evil "darkness" totally out of context if you were

 

[student ad x]

yes He made the day and the night, the stars the moon and the planets.....I sure hope you weren't thinking of using that passage as a reference to God making evil "darkness" totally out of context if you were

.... odd how I didn't realize 98c was dialoguing with you.......... must be a catchy "baptist" thing.


To my brothers...... the discussion is now straying from the OP and we do know how to stay on topic....... yes

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

.... odd how I didn't realize 98c was dialoguing with you.......... must be a catchy "baptist" thing.


To my brothers...... the discussion is now straying from the OP and we do know how to stay on topic....... yes

check his post again brother @gospelisoffensive see Isaiah 45:7.....I thought that was directed at me, I am "thegospelisoffensive" hope I didn't offend you

 

[98cwitr]

yes He made the day and the night, the stars the moon and the planets.....I sure hope you weren't thinking of using that passage as a reference to God making evil "darkness" totally out of context if you were

I don't acknowledge the KJV, so my sources say "calamity"

...and it's definitely not out of context. If God made all things then God makes ALL THINGS

...are we not suppose to take the good with the bad? (Job)

.... odd how I didn't realize 98c was dialoguing with you.......... must be a catchy "baptist" thing.]

@thegospelisoffensive = I am addressing another poster named thegospelisoffensive in the same post

 

[Basil the Great]

Are you saying that Jesus was a heretic, a Roman Catholic, a fruitcake, or just plain confused?

Matt. 7:21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23. “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is contrasting doing the will of His father with practicing lawlessness. What, therefore, does Jesus mean by doing “the will of [His] Father who is in heaven?

I thank all who responded to my thread. It is indeed the above Scripture passage which really gives me pause and makes me think that those stuck in habitual sin could be in trouble on Judgment Day.

 

[OzSpen]

98,

I don't acknowledge the KJV, so my sources say "calamity"

...and it's definitely not out of context. If God made all things then God makes ALL THINGS

...are we not suppose to take the good with the bad? (Job)

How do we respond, biblically? Perhaps it will be helpful to examine Isa. 45:7 to try to gain some light on this challenging topic.

The KJV translates as, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things”.

The ESV reads, “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things”.

According to the KJV, God creates good (light, peace) and evil (see also Jer. 18:11; Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But there are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God (e.g. 1 John 1:5). Hab. 1:13 states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil” (ESV). James 1:13 confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave us?

We know that God is morally perfect (see Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48). God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). But there is more to the attributes of God, including his absolute justice that requires that sin be punished by Him. So, there will be judgment by God in this life and eternally (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15). So, in this life, when God executes justice we sometimes call this “evil” because from our human perspective, God seems to be committing evil against these people and nations. Were the Indonesian tsunami and the Joplin MO twister examples of God’s “evil” actions?

However, the Hebrew ra, evil/calamity in Isa 45:7, does not always mean moral evil. In the Isa 45 context, the ESV demonstrates that it should be translated as “calamity”, which is how the NKJV also translates it. The context supports this translation. So God is seen as the creator of “evil”, not in the moral sense directly, but as the one who brings judgment/calamity.

God can be seen indirectly as the author of moral evil, but only in the sense that he created moral human beings who had the power of free choice and it is this free choice by us that brought moral evil into the universe. We see the beginning of this in Genesis 3. God created moral beings who had the ability to perform moral evil – and they did. God created free human beings and it is they who made evil real.

God’s making human beings with the the possibility of free choice is a good thing. Thus, we can say that God created only good things and one of those good things was free choice. Moral, but free, human beings produced the evil in our world. Yes, God made the moral universe and indirectly created the possibility of evil in our universe. So, evil is permitted by God, but God does not produce or promote this evil. We know that ultimately a greater good is coming (see Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21-22).

I have been helped in providing the above information by Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe 1992. When Critics Ask. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, pp. 271-272 (the new title is, The Big Book of Bible Difficulties). Geisler & Howe summarise:

GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL

• In the sense of sin
• Moral evil
• Perversity
• Directly
• Actuality of evil

GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL

• In the sense of calamity
• Non-moral evil
• Plagues
• Indirectly
• Possibility of evil

Sincerely, Oz

 

[98cwitr]

It's as simple as this:

If God is omniscient and God is the Creator of all things, then God has the foreknowledge of the actions (good or bad) of all of His creations. Therefore, God is the author of ALL THINGS. Indirectly, yes you are right. That's exactly how I see it too. If you think this makes Him bad or evil...you're simply wrong. If you can't accept the bad with the good, and then seemingly would blame God for doing His Perfect Will, then so be it.

There's no "possibility" of evil...Satan is real and is at work...there is an "inevitability" of evil until the return of Christ. Non-moral evil is an oxymoron. There's no such thing as non-moral evil.