How can they morally aim when death penalty is involved?

[peter2]

In the book of Romans. Paul specifically warns against church members. Disrupting local civil authorities from performing government functions.

3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.

It's written, i have to admit it. Could you help my understanding of where stand the duty and what must be the good works of citizens when a coup is performed by an order against another one?

4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

Should we consider this new ruler as ruling its country on God's behalf and for good?
Please, do consider i'm really bewildered, for it would make opportunists of citizens, changing sides at each revolution or coup, and turning a blind eye to the violence that occur the more often in these changes, wouldn't it? I 'm getting lost.

 

[Doug Melven]

Wasn't a ram sacrificed instead of Isaac? Unfortunate ram, that providence had left the horns caught in bushes, and that Abraham killed, intead of his son. Do you think this ram was guilty of something? What's more, as distinct from Jesus, it didn't willingly die, that is, to please to God.

The ram was willing. It was caught by its horns, not its fur.
Being caught by its horns means it could have just backed out. But when they get by by there fur, they are unable to extricate themselves.

God instituted the death penalty as the most serious punishment and was designed to root out evil so it did not spread to others.

IMO the death penalty should only be used in cases where the deviant who commits serious crimes will not stop preying on others.

 

[narrowgateevangelist]

It's written, i have to admit it. Could you help my understanding of where stand the duty and what must be the good works of citizens when a coup is performed by an order against another one?

Should we consider this new ruler as ruling its country on God's behalf and for good?
Please, do consider i'm really bewildered, for it would make opportunists of citizens, changing sides at each revolution or coup, and turning a blind eye to the violence that occur the more often in these changes, wouldn't it? I 'm getting lost.

As a general rule. A Christian is loyal to God first. So if a civil authority makes a rule whereby one must break God's law to obey it. A Christian shouldn't follow it.

Acts 4: 19. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 20. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. 21. So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

 

[peter2]

The ram was willing. It was caught by its horns, not its fur.
Being caught by its horns means it could have just backed out. But when they get by by there fur, they are unable to extricate themselves.

Don't feel offended, please, but your saying isn't a bible's one, and i stand doubtful

 

[Doug Melven]

Don't feel offended, please, but your saying isn't a bible's one, and i stand doubtful

The whole scenario of Abraham sacrificing his son and being replaced by the ram is a picture of what Christ willingly did for us. So it follows that if Jesus was willing, the ram would have been willing as well.

 

[peter2]

Acts 4: 19. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 20. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. 21. So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

My own examples of pieces of scripture that add precision to your preceeding post are when John the baptist was beheaded in his prison, by the guards of Herod, and when Jesus was crucified under the rule of Pontius Pilate

As a general rule. A Christian is loyal to God first. So if a civil authority makes a rule whereby one must break God's law to obey it. A Christian shouldn't follow it.

Your relevant piece of scripture and my own examples help me distinguish the relevant depth of the gap between rulers and i i should endeavour to keep without bridging it, nor digging it deeper.
I send you my great gratitude for this proper guiding.

 

[peter2]

The whole scenario of Abraham sacrificing his son and being replaced by the ram is a picture of what Christ willingly did for us. So it follows that if Jesus was willing, the ram would have been willing as well.

I'm really not sure. Of what kind of will a ram is able? Animals don't seem to me attracted by any form of suicidal pulsions.

 

[Doug Melven]

I'm really not sure. Of what kind of will a ram is able? Animals don't seem to me attracted by any form of suicidal pulsions.

Do you think Jesus was suicidal? He gave His life willingly.

 

[peter2]

Do you think Jesus was suicidal? He gave His life willingly.

I agree: He gave His life without pleasure, without suicidal thought, but willingly.

So it follows that if Jesus was willing, the ram would have been willing as well.

But i'm not sure the ram gave willingly its life. I can't imagine an animal doing much the same interior sacrifice as Christ, with an analogous will, love of mankind, and of Isaac, with the same feelings of abnegation. I doubt this gift is within a ram's reach

 

[Ringo84]

The government having control over when its citizens live and die seems like the very definition of 'big government'.
Ringo

 

[peter2]

The government having control over when its citizens live and die seems like the very definition of 'big government'.

As long as this government doesn't rule in the name of Christ!

 

[Doug Melven]

I agree: He gave His life without pleasure, without suicidal thought, but willingly.

But i'm not sure the ram gave willingly its life. I can't imagine an animal doing much the same interior sacrifice as Christ, with an analogous will, love of mankind, and of Isaac, with the same feelings of abnegation. I doubt this gift is within a ram's reach

Isaac didn't Abraham, he was just being obedient. I doubt that he had all these thoughts that you mention.
So, the ram did not have to have all of these thoughts either.
All I am saying is the ram was willing because I don't see how the horns can manage to get stuck to where the ram can't easily extricate itself.
If you can show me how this thicket can trap a ram by the horns I will give it up.

 

[Desk trauma]

As long as this government doesn't rule in the name of Christ!

Not really. I would feel even more uncomfortable with the notion of capital punishment if its a theocracy doling it out given that it would not be limited to those guilty of murder.

 

[peter2]

All I am saying is the ram was willing because I don't see how the horns can manage to get stuck to where the ram can't easily extricate itself.

Don't you think such ram's horns could get stuck in thickets?
Sorry, i planned to display shots of ram's horns, but failed to do so

 

[Doug Melven]

https://www.google.fr/saves/list/nuMIkNmSOSS7iJWJNFap6A
Don't you think such horns could get stuck in thickets?

To post an image, in the post reply box look for the icon that looks a little bit like a mountain, it is between the smiley face and the film strip. Click on that, and put that url into the box.
I did it just because I wanted to see if it would work, because when I clicked on your link I got a 404 message.

Hmm, that didn't work.

 

[peter2]

https://goo.gl/images/JADmwK

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No.
In fact, it thrives most when people don't realize they are under a death sentence today.

Doesn't sin thrive on moral human death penalty?

 

[peter2]

To post an image, in the post reply box look for the icon that looks a little bit like a mountain, it is between the smiley face and

It seems i' m not very skilfull. Here is an adequate ram, on the post above

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This has been shown frequently enough over the years on PBS (related to other reasons/ topics/ not the Bible) .

All I am saying is the ram was willing because I don't see how the horns can manage to get stuck to where the ram can't easily extricate itself.
If you can show me how this thicket can trap a ram by the horns I will give it up.

 

[peter2]

All I am saying is the ram was willing because I don't see how the horns can manage to get stuck to where the ram can't easily extricate itself.

If the ram was willing, why did it choose to get its horns stuck. There were some other means, more obvious, to willingly surrender, weren't there?