How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

Thursday

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Foreseen faith?

God chose those that He knew would choose Him?

Can you link this teaching to the CCC or The Bible?

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.


“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” – CCC, 600
 
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bottomofsandal

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1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.


“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” – CCC, 600


The RCC position reads as if there is harmony between predestination and choice.

This soft determinism/compatibilism is held by many Christians as well.

I don't see the conventional foreseen faith contained in any of the references.


Foreseen faith is when God looks into the future to see who will choose Christ.

Notice the choice is made sans grace, predestination, election, or God's Divine will.

In this foreseen faith model, God then predestines after man has already chosen.


This Is foreseen faith. I really don't see how The Catechism or Biblical verses support.

Peter calls the brethren elect, saying they have been chosen by God's foreknowledge.

Does this mean God chooses man after man has already chosen? What about Philippians 2:13?
 
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bottomofsandal

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It could be. But it doesn't prove that predestination exists outside of special situations.

This was a curse and the Israelite's were passed over so they did not suffer for what Pharoah had done.

So you think if there never was a Passover in the Bible, Jesus could not come, die to forgive sins? That is quite a stretch. Sin still needed to be atoned for regardless of the Israelite's and the curse on Pharoah for not releasing them.
That's not what was said or implied.


God predestined a sacrificial system with a morning lamb and evening lamb.

Cain and Abel both made offerings unto The Lord. God accepted the lamb.

God predestined The Passover Supper with the killing and eating the flesh of a lamb.

Abraham said God will provide a lamb. John the Baptist said behold The Lamb of God.

Revelation 13:8 says, "The Lamb slain before the foundations of the world."


Predestination 101...it could not have happened any other way, it is impossible
 
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Thursday

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The RCC position reads as if there is harmony between predestination and choice.

There is, if the predestination is based on the choices we make, which are known to a God outside of time.

This is not determinism. We choose our own path.
 
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bottomofsandal

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There is, if the predestination is based on the choices we make, which are known to a God outside of time.

This is not determinism. We choose our own path.
Sure there is determinism, Peter even says so in Acts 2:23

Predestination is God's choices...our choices are our choices.

You cannot reinvent words. PRE (before) destination. It's before.

Anyhow, nice corollary.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Sure there is determinism, Peter even says so in Acts 2:23
Predestination is God's choices...our choices are our choices.
You cannot reinvent words. PRE (before) destination. It's before.
Anyhow, nice corollary.
There is no doubt that God knows what choices we will make given who we are and whatever circumstance we are in when we make those choices.

There is also no doubt that God predestines events which can and often do include choices made by individuals.

God can well choose what individuals and what circumstances will occur at what time. He could and even did do it before there was anything in existence by God HImself.

In fact there is no doubt that He does exactly that. He is, after all, the omnipresent God who fills the heavens and the earth and in whom we live and breath and have our being.

The idea that God cannot and does not predestine events that include free choices by men without doing away with free will makes no more logical sense than saying that God cannot predestine an earthquake in the Tribulation period or a comet strike somewhere in history without somehow doing away with the laws of geology or astronomy.

IMO the only reason for any push back at all from the anti-predestination side is what seems to be an abhorance which they have for the fact that they are not God and He is.

Each and every one of us, both saved and unsaved, can and do make choices as we see fit every minute and every hour of every day. But we only do so within the confines of what it means to be the creature and not the creator.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That's not what was said or implied.


God predestined a sacrificial system with a morning lamb and evening lamb.

Cain and Abel both made offerings unto The Lord. God accepted the lamb.

God predestined The Passover Supper with the killing and eating the flesh of a lamb.

Abraham said God will provide a lamb. John the Baptist said behold The Lamb of God.

Revelation 13:8 says, "The Lamb slain before the foundations of the world."


Predestination 101...it could not have happened any other way, it is impossible
I don't think your predestine 101 is thorough enough. Why not explain all the verses that have the word 'lamb' in them.
 
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ToBeLoved

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IMO the only reason for any push back at all from the anti-predestination side is what seems to be an abhorance which they have for the fact that they are not God and He is.

Each and every one of us, both saved and unsaved, can and do make choices as we see fit every minute and every hour of every day. But we only do so within the confines of what it means to be the creature and not the creator.
Harsh words. Guess anyone who does not believe in predestination abhors God. Now that makes no sense when there are millions of non-Calvinists who dedicate their lives to loving and serving a God they abhor?

I'm pretty sure abhor is a form a hate, so we hate God? Now who is changing scripture around to make their theology right? Hmmmm...

Interesting theology. Can you include the scripture that says this. I'll wait for the verses on the saved Christian who is God's Own saved by the same blood of Christ as yourself, but abhors God.

I'll wait. Which verses are they?

I hope that you have them because this is a low blow even for a Calvinist. Got to sink other believers to make the crazy theology work. Satan works in pride and gets a lot of believers that way.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Harsh words. Guess anyone who does not believe in predestination abhors God. Now that makes no sense when there are millions of non-Calvinists who dedicate their lives to loving and serving a God they abhor?
I'm pretty sure abhor is a form a hate, so we hate God? Now who is changing scripture around to make their theology right? Hmmmm...
Interesting theology. Can you include the scripture that says this. I'll wait for the verses on the saved Christian who is God's Own saved by the same blood of Christ as yourself, but abhors God.
I'll wait. Which verses are they?
I hope that you have them because this is a low blow even for a Calvinist. Got to sink other believers to make the crazy theology work. Satan works in pride and gets a lot of believers that way.
If you show me the post quote where I said that anyone who does not believe in predestination abhors God I will retract it..

I'll wait. Where is that quote.

It seems to me that you are becoming pretty well known for misrepresenting others.

A while back I called you on your saying that Calvinists made God the author of sin after I have provided quote after quote from Calvinist sources which say the opposite.

I'm stil waiting for an apology for that lie. I haven't seen one yet.

A while back when you were speaking to a relatively new poster, I saw where you pretended shock that any Calvinist has ever said that they believe in predestination and free will. It was the first you had ever heard of that you said.

Yet I have corrected you on that many times now on that very subject both from my own words and those of the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I'm still waiting for an apology for that lie also. I haven't seen one yet.

You started out here in the forum to presenting yourself a good person who disagreed with some Calvinist doctrines - but one who only wanted truth.

You have evolved into a person who lies and misrepresents fellow believers with whom you differ on doctrine.

There seems to be no recourse with the moderators against someone who constantly lies.

That leaves me no choice but to simply call you on it whenever I see you doing it.

Please stop lying about fellow believers.

If you want the thread shut down for some reason you are well on your way to that happening.

But if you want to reset without apologizing - that will be OK for now so long as there are no more lies.

If you want to dialog and argue about a particular doctrine, I am more than willing to do so.

For starters you only have to show me where God has to put the gift of free choice on hold just because He predestines that a certain choice will be alllowed.
 
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ToBeLoved

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If you show me the post quote where I said that anyone who does not believe in predestination abhors God I will retract it..

I'll wait. Where is that quote.
Post 1726. I'm surprised you could not find it since it was a direct reply to the post I replied from.
 
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ToBeLoved

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It seems to me that you are becoming pretty well known for misrepresenting others.

A while back I called you on your saying that Calvinists made God the author of sin after I have provided quote after quote from Calvinist sources which say the opposite.

I'm stil waiting for an apology for that lie. I haven't seen one yet.
There will not be an apology. Just because someone says they do not make God the author of sin, does not mean their theology supports such a premise. If God predestines every bathroom trip, then God predestined Adam and Eve's fall. I mean it's nice to say one's theology doesn't say that, but truth be told it does. One cannot have God control each of His creation's lives down to the way they say Good Morning or Good Afternoon and then not think that God also controlled Adam and Eve in the same way.

I will go even further in that thought. With the Calvinists belief that God controls every little thing, than they also believe God put the serpent right there in the garden to tempt Eve, knowing that the serpent would trick her. Then knowing that Eve would give it to Adam and that sin would come to light.

The theology has to make sense. Can't say God controls every little thing in all of His Creation's lives but when Eve was in the garden. Doesn't work that way Marvin. God takes responsibility for Himself and in His Word He tells us who He is and His attributes.

The same logic could then be applied to the angels and that rebellion that kind of led to the garden rebellion.

By the way Marvin, you do a great job misrepresenting others too.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Post 1726. I'm surprised you could not find it since it was a direct reply to the post I replied from.
I did not say what you said that I said.
Just because someone says they do not make God the author of sin, does not mean their theology supports such a premise.
OK - so you are saying that you do not see how predestination does not make God the author of sin. There is a big difference between saying that and saying that Calvinists make God the author of sin.

If you can't follow the logic and the scriptural support for a subject - just say so and it will be explained to you. Assuming, of course, that you really want to understand.
If God predestines every bathroom trip, then God predestined Adam and Eve's fall.
God did predestine those things.

You are equating God's prior decision to allow certain things with His making others do them. The opposite of that supposition is held by every good theologian whether they be Calvinist or Arminian or whatever else there may be.

God decides beforehand what He will allow and what He will not allow. God is, by definition, the being who provides the platform for decisions both good and bad to be made within.

I really don't know where you are getting this God who simply created and then watches to see what happens. God is not only transcendent. God is immanent as well. That doctrine is also held by Calvinists and non Calvinists alike.
I mean it's nice to say one's theology doesn't say that, but truth be told it does.
No one said that their theology doesn't say that God predestined everything that happens in creation. I have always held that position.
One cannot have God control each of His creation's lives down to the way they say Good Morning or Good Afternoon and then not think that God also controlled Adam and Eve in the same way.
Where did you get this idea that I believe that God controls everything that people do. It is obvious that He allows them free choices.

God's predestination of everything that happens within His creation doesn't eliminate the ability of the creature to make free choices.

I have been clear on that and the WCF has been clear on that as well.
I will go even further in that thought. With the Calvinists belief that God controls every little thing, than they also believe God put the serpent right there in the garden to tempt Eve, knowing that the serpent would trick her. Then knowing that Eve would give it to Adam and that sin would come to light.
No big stretch there. It is obvious that that is exactly what happened.
The theology has to make sense. Can't say God controls every little thing in all of His Creation's lives but when Eve was in the garden. Doesn't work that way Marvin.
I don't know what that means.
God takes responsibility for Himself and in His Word He tells us who He is and His attributes.
That is true. He doesn't need you or anyone else to defend that fact that His revealed attributes demand a belief in the predestination of all things which take place in His creation.
The same logic could then be applied to the angels and that rebellion that kind of led to the garden rebellion.
The fact that God is totally in charge of the activities of the angels both fallen and elect is a no brainer.

May I suggest the Book of Job?
By the way Marvin, you do a great job misrepresenting others too.
Any examples?

If you have questions then I would be glad to field them for you.

But if you haven't thought these things through completely - as appears to be the case - then you should not comment - just listen and learn.

Your next post will decide which it will be and I will react to it appropriately by answering sincere inquiries or by breaking it off between us.

You have a chance to learn from someone who can explain it to you as no one else I know of will bother to do. Or you can just withdraw into your caccoon of bitter rejection of good theology and just go with your own emotions.

Good luck with your choice. :)
 
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ToBeLoved

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I did not say what you said that I said.

OK - so you are saying that you do not see how predestination does not make God the author of sin. There is a big difference between saying that and saying that Calvinists make God the author of sin.

If you can't follow the logic and the scriptural support for a subject - just say so and it will be explained to you. Assuming, of course, that you really want to understand.

God did predestine those things.

You are equating God's prior decision to allow certain things with His making others do them. The opposite of that supposition is held by every good theologian whether they be Calvinist or Arminian or whatever else there may be.

God decides beforehand what He will allow and what He will not allow. God is, by definition, the being who provides the platform for decisions both good and bad to be made within.

I really don't know where you are getting this God who simply created and then watches to see what happens. God is not only transcendent. God is immanent as well. That doctrine is also held by Calvinists and non Calvinists alike.
No one said that their theology doesn't say that God predestined everything that happens in creation. I have always held that position.

Where did you get this idea that I believe that God controls everything that people do. It is obvious that He allows them free choices.

God's predestination of everything that happens within His creation doesn't eliminate the ability of the creature to make free choices.

I have been clear on that and the WCF has been clear on that as well.

No big stretch there. It is obvious that that is exactly what happened.

I don't know what that means.

That is true. He doesn't need you or anyone else to defend that fact that His revealed attributes demand a belief in the predestination of all things which take place in His creation.

The fact that God is totally in charge of the activities of the angels both fallen and elect is a no brainer.

May I suggest the Book of Job?

Any examples?

If you have questions then I would be glad to field them for you.

But if you haven't thought these things through completely - as appears to be the case - then you should not comment - just listen and learn.

Your next post will decide which it will be and I will react to it appropriately by answering sincere inquiries or by breaking it off between us.

You have a chance to learn from someone who can explain it to you as no one else I know of will bother to do. Or you can just withdraw into your caccoon of bitter rejection of good theology and just go with your own emotions.

Good luck with your choice. :)
Why don't we just ignore each other. You do not seem to be able to control your words anymore. Saying that we abhor God and that we bitterly reject theology for emotions. Seems you have lost touch with that this is a difference in theology, yet we are both saved by the same God. May God work in your heart so that you find love for the brethren.

I really don't need to listen to your insults and I see you cannot control yourself anymore. They keep coming even though I always bring it back to theology, it doesn't help.
 
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Thursday

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Sure there is determinism, Peter even says so in Acts 2:23

Predestination is God's choices...our choices are our choices.

You cannot reinvent words. PRE (before) destination. It's before.

Anyhow, nice corollary.

The predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our actions. Our destination is determined by our choices.

Given your beliefs, then it is entirely God's fault that any man would go to Hell.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I did not say what you said that I said.
I don't know how you can say that, it was a direct reply to your own post. Maybe you modified it later, but when I wrote the reply that was the content of that post.

Stop accusing me and own your own words and deeds. Take responsibility.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Perhaps not everyone is yet equipped for advanced teaching :sigh:
Yeah, well since I don't believe totally in the Calvinist understanding of predestination I am not the one to be taught that anyway. It doesn't coincide with who God says He is in God's Word and I take God's Word as the Ultimate authority.
 
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bottomofsandal

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If you can't follow the logic and the scriptural support for a subject - just say so and it will be explained to you.


You are equating God's prior decision to allow certain things with His making others do them. The opposite of that supposition is held by every good theologian whether they be Calvinist or Arminian or whatever else there may be.

God decides beforehand what He will allow and what He will not allow. God is, by definition, the being who provides the platform for decisions both good and bad to be made within.

Where did you get this idea that I believe that God controls everything that people do. It is obvious that He allows them free choices.

God's predestination of everything that happens within His creation doesn't eliminate the ability of the creature to make free choices.

That is true. He doesn't need you or anyone else to defend that fact that His revealed attributes demand a belief in the predestination of all things which take place in His creation.
This is called "personal incredulity"

Someone cannot believe a position is valid because they are unable to understand.

I wonder how the anti-predestination folks define predestination? Extra-Biblically?
 
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bottomofsandal

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Yeah, well since I don't believe totally in the Calvinist understanding of predestination I am not the one to be taught that anyway. It doesn't coincide with who God says He is in God's Word and I take God's Word as the Ultimate authority.
What then is The Biblical definition of predestination?

You keep saying what it is not, but not what constitutes predestination.

Give us specific Biblical examples of predestination from The Bible.


Not foreknowing. Foreknowing is NOT predestination.

God knows in advance because He has predetermined. Not vice versa.
 
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Thursday

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Not foreknowing. Foreknowing is NOT predestination.

God knows in advance because He has predetermined. Not vice versa.

Predestination based on foreknowledge is the biblical teaching.

God is just. Predestination unrelated to our actions is not just.
 
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