How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[ToBeLoved]

I will not change it unless I ask you first.

Thank you very much.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Do you include John Calvin in this category?

Which category do you mean?

 

[com7fy8]

Though we are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world,

our (free) will must still believe in The One sent. Do you concur?

Yes, believing is included, and our willing is included. But consider >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, I see that our willing which God desires is worked by God in our wills . . . including in our nature so we will what He wants in His love.

The bugaboo for some is between predestination and foreknowledge.

Whether the outcome is predetermined or foreknown, it is the same...

First, I enjoy considering that love does the destining.

Humanly, if you fall in love with someone, there are things which are destined to happen because of how you love each other.

Our Father so loved Jesus, that He destined that He would have many like His Son so pleasing to Him.

I offer something which I consider > if you know something is going to happen, tomorrow, it is because you have full control of tomorrow. Or else, you don't really foreknow tomorrow, but you are planning and intending and hoping and wishing. But God foreknew because He would control.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Yes, believing is included, and our willing is included. But consider >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, I see that our willing which God desires is worked by God in our wills . . . including in our nature so we will what He wants in His love.

First, I enjoy considering that love does the destining.

Humanly, if you fall in love with someone, there are things which are destined to happen because of how you love each other.

Our Father so loved Jesus, that He destined that He would have many like His Son so pleasing to Him.

I offer something which I consider > if you know something is going to happen, tomorrow, it is because you have full control of tomorrow. Or else, you don't really foreknow tomorrow, but you are planning and intending and hoping and wishing. But God foreknew because He would control.

Jeremiah tells us God has a plan for us to prosper, and not to harm us.

Proverbs tells us that a man devises plans in his heart, but The Lord directs his steps.

It gives great comfort and assurance to know God is in absolute, total, and complete control.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Predestination is that He has planned out and destined before the world each thing that we would think, say and do. That's the one that many don't think God did. If we were predestined to God, then we didn't come to Him out of desire to be with Him or love. The Holy Spirit did it through no desire on our part. We just love Him because the Holy Spirit made us do it.

I don't see where anyone has said or implied this level of micro-predestination.

The Bible tells us we are predestined to salvation, plus God foreknew us.



Romans 8:29-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30 Amplified Bible (AMP)
29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers. 30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].


The issued of the UNpredestined is what is a problem for some for some reason.

The UNsaved were not chose and not predestined according to the verses above.

I choose to give thanks to God's for His glorious gift!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't see where anyone has said or implied this level of micro-predestination.

The Bible tells us we are predestined to salvation, plus God foreknew us.



Romans 8:29-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30 Amplified Bible (AMP)
29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers. 30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].


The issued of the UNpredestined is what is a problem for some for some reason.

The UNsaved were not chose and not predestined according to the verses above.

I choose to give thanks to God's for His glorious gift!

I agree. That's where it falls apart.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Why do we or even should we pray if God has predetermined the beginning from the end?

Did not Jesus Himself teach us how to pray?

This is such silly doctrine.

I know there is more to your position.

I don't believe you are calling God's will silly.

The Bible shows God predetermining. Even the death of Christ.



Isaiah 46:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

 

[ToBeLoved]

I know there is more to your position.

I don't believe you are calling God's will silly.

The Bible shows God predetermining. Even the death of Christ.

Isaiah 46:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Let's not confuse predestination with foreknowledge.

God knows everything, past, present and future. All at the same time, there is nothing that God does not know. So maybe we need to view God as He cannot, not know.

Have you ever thought about it from God's perspective as much as anyone can or could. Why would Jesus give us the choice to come to Him or not, yet predestine everything, even who would not choose Him. That becomes a theological slippery slope when you have to allocate for those not going to heaven. So how do you reconcile that God predestined people to hell and predestined Adam and Eve to sin?

The reason I am not a Calvinist is because it cannot be reconciled back to God's Word fully. There are a lot of good questions out there that are not answered, IMHO by Calvinism.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Let's not confuse predestination with foreknowledge.

God knows everything, past, present and future. All at the same time, there is nothing that God does not know. So maybe we need to view God as He cannot, not know.

Have you ever thought about it from God's perspective as much as anyone can or could. Why would Jesus give us the choice to come to Him or not, yet predestine everything, even who would not choose Him. That becomes a theological slippery slope when you have to allocate for those not going to heaven. So how do you reconcile that God predestined people to hell and predestined Adam and Eve to sin?

The reason I am not a Calvinist is because it cannot be reconciled back to God's Word fully. There are a lot of good questions out there that are not answered, IMHO by Calvinism.

Yeah, Calvinism in not a magical theological pill that resolves everything.

If there is overlap of people's povs with Calvinism, it doesn't mean they are Calvinists.

FWIW, I have no real interest in Calvinism or Arminianism other than Biblical agreement.


For instance, both Acts 2:23 and Romans 8:29 simultaneously use foreknowledge and predestination (predetermined) in matters of salvation. Both Jesus' death/resurrection and God's choice are illustrated by the exact words predestined and foreknowledge. No -ism that I know of other than HYPER-Calvinism states God predestined the condemned.

The plague of the first born shows us God passes over some, while saving those under the Blood. Surely God foreknew this event. God predestined to save Israel's first born. Since this was predestined and foreknown by God, was the death of Egyptian first-born predetermined and foreknown as well? How can one be exclusive from the other? God's plan was to save some, but not all.

We cannot say chance is the determining factor in matters of salvation. God chose, and by His choice, and as a result of His primary choice/will, people were left behind. God did not maliciously create people for hell, rather the consequence of Him choosing a peculiar people unto Himself necessitated this outcome of unsaved souls, not because of God, but due to the man's sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The plague of the first born shows us God passes over some, while saving those under the Blood. Surely God foreknew this event. God predestined to save Israel's first born. Since this was predestined and foreknown by God, was the death of Egyptian first-born predetermined and foreknown as well? How can one be exclusive from the other? God's plan was to save some, but not all.

The killing of the first born was a curse God, through Moses put on Egypt. The only reason that the Israelite's were passed over is because God told Moses to have them put lamb's blood over their doors and the angel of death would 'pass over' those houses during the curse.

I don't see any correlation with predestination in this story. A curse is not predestination

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yeah, Calvinism in not a magical theological pill that resolves everything.

If there is overlap of people's povs with Calvinism, it doesn't mean they are Calvinists.

FWIW, I have no real interest in Calvinism or Arminianism other than Biblical agreement.


For instance, both Acts 2:23 and Romans 8:29 simultaneously use foreknowledge and predestination (predetermined) in matters of salvation. Both Jesus' death/resurrection and God's choice are illustrated by the exact words predestined and foreknowledge. No -ism that I know of other than HYPER-Calvinism states God predestined the condemned.

The plague of the first born shows us God passes over some, while saving those under the Blood. Surely God foreknew this event. God predestined to save Israel's first born. Since this was predestined and foreknown by God, was the death of Egyptian first-born predetermined and foreknown as well? How can one be exclusive from the other? God's plan was to save some, but not all.

We cannot say chance is the determining factor in matters of salvation. God chose, and by His choice, and as a result of His primary choice/will, people were left behind. God did not maliciously create people for hell, rather the consequence of Him choosing a peculiar people unto Himself necessitated this outcome of unsaved souls, not because of God, but due to the man's sin.

I'm pretty sure that the 'I' in Tulip, Irresistable Grace is not optional in Calvinist thinking. And IMHO to think that God chooses some but not others cannot be reconciled back to God's Word. Jesus said "I have come that ALL may have eternal life".

Popular verse John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His Only Begotten Son"

"God wishes that none should perish, but that ALL will have eternal life.

There are just too many verses that show 'all' for me to buy into irresistible grace for some. They cannot resolve these conflicts either without adding to the Bible.

It's not cut and dry on either side. So I say, "I'm not sure" but I'm glad I know Christ.

 

[Thursday]

Though we are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world,

our (free) will must still believe in The One sent. Do you concur?

The bugaboo for some is between predestination and foreknowledge.

Whether the outcome is predetermined or foreknown, it is the same...

Not true. There is a huge difference. God can know what we will do without making the choices for us.

 

[Thursday]

Which category do you mean?

Hypercalvinism.

 

[bottomofsandal]

The killing of the first born was a curse God, through Moses put on Egypt. The only reason that the Israelite's were passed over is because God told Moses to have them put lamb's blood over their doors and the angel of death would 'pass over' those houses during the curse.

I don't see any correlation with predestination in this story. A curse is not predestination

Sure it is...without this incident there would be no Passover!

Without Passover, there would not be The Passover Lamb Jesus!

Passover was predestined and predetermined in the plan of God.

 

[bottomofsandal]

It's not cut and dry on either side. So I say, "I'm not sure" but I'm glad I know Christ.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Not true. There is a huge difference. God can know what we will do without making the choices for us.

No one said that. You are obfuscating and embellishing.

God says He chose, called, and predestined us unto salvation.

We still must have faith that comes by hearing and we still must believe.


You must have missed Romans 8:28 and Acts 2:23 that I posted earlier.

Not really looking for agreement, it's there in The Holy Writ.


Pharaoh, Balaam, and Abimelech...and more if one looks

Proverbs tells us a man devises plans...but The Lord directs his steps.

God can persuade, reason, coerce, cajole, influence...who can resist His will?

 

[Thursday]

No one said that. You are obfuscating and embellishing.

God says He chose, called, and predestined us unto salvation.

He chose those that he foreknew would follow his will.

Do you believe God predestined some men to Hell and some men to heaven with no regard for their actions on earth?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Hypercalvinism.

A very, very small minority within Calvinism believes this admittedly.

Even Calvinists disavow and disown the renegade Hyper-Calvinst crowd.

 

[bottomofsandal]

He chose those that he foreknew would follow his will.

Do you believe God predestined some men to Hell and some men to heaven with no regard for their actions on earth?

Foreseen faith?

God chose those that He knew would choose Him?

Can you link this teaching to the CCC or The Bible?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sure it is...without this incident there would be no Passover!

Without Passover, there would not be The Passover Lamb Jesus!

Passover was predestined and predetermined in the plan of God.

It could be. But it doesn't prove that predestination exists outside of special situations.

This was a curse and the Israelite's were passed over so they did not suffer for what Pharoah had done.

So you think if there never was a Passover in the Bible, Jesus could not come, die to forgive sins? That is quite a stretch. Sin still needed to be atoned for regardless of the Israelite's and the curse on Pharoah for not releasing them.