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Vambram

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And what about the cultural, historical and theological context of Scriptures? No Bible just fell from heaven.
The Scriptures were "God breathed" by the Lord God Himself so that the original manuscripts were inerrant. Although over the course of thousands of years, there have been people who have misinterpreted the Scriptures, I know that there have also been people who have interpreted the Scriptures correctly. I believe that it is incorrect to assume that ancient Israeli cosmology was the correct belief for the Israelites. After all, look at all of the different prophecies in the Old Testament concerning the Messiah Jesus Christ that the scholars and people of Israel did not understand and misinterpreted.
 
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trophy33

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The Scriptures were "God breathed" by the Lord God Himself so that the original manuscripts were inerrant.
First, you refer to the verse quite loosely, it says "All Scripture", not "The Scriptures". And the verb "were" (from which you would probably imply originals) is not in the text in Greek. The Greek text literally says "All Scripture God-breathed".

Second, it would not mean the originals were inerrant. Its neither stated in the verse nor in its context. Paul does not even mention inerrancy at all.

Third, understanding the cultural and historical context is not too relevant for inerrancy. Its mainly relevant for the understanding of what the written text means.
 
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Vambram

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First, you refer to the verse quite loosely, it says "All Scripture", not "The Scriptures". And the verb "were" (from which you would probably imply originals) is not in the text in Greek. The Greek text literally says "All Scripture God-breathed".

Second, it would not mean the originals were inerrant. Its neither stated in the verse nor in its context. Paul does not even mention inerrancy at all.

Third, understanding the cultural and historical context is not too relevant for inerrancy. Its mainly relevant for the understanding of what the written text means.
Well, we are getting off topic here with the discussion about inerrancy and the inspiration of the Scriptures. However, I am sure that you recognize that the word "inerrancy" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Also, the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible as well. However, just because a theological term is not actually found in the Bible does NOT mean that said term is not doctrinally sound. But, if you would like to get into a discussion about the inerrancy of the original manuscripts of ALL Scriptures because they are God Breathed by the Lord God Himself, then we can do so in pm, or in an appropriate thread and sub-forum within this website.
 
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trophy33

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Well, we are getting off topic here with the discussion about inerrancy and the inspiration of the Scriptures. However, I am sure that you recognize that the word "inerrancy" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Also, the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible as well. However, just because a theological term is not actually found in the Bible does NOT mean that said term is not doctrinally sound. But, if you would like to get into a discussion about the inerrancy of the original manuscripts of ALL Scriptures because they are God Breathed by the Lord God Himself, then we can do so in pm, or in an appropriate thread and sub-forum within this website.
As I said, the cultural and historical context of Scriptures has nothing to do with inerrancy, as such.

Possibly indirectly, if you believe in some hyper-inerrancy, like scientific, literal dictation of everything by God, word by word. Which is obviously not how Scriptures were written and composed (one can simply compare two gospel accounts with each other).
 
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Vambram

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As I said, the cultural and historical context of Scriptures has nothing to do with inerrancy, as such.
Historical and cultural context is an important consideration when it comes to Biblical hermeneutics. Therefore, it is also important to look at all of the different passages (not individual verses) of the Bible from both the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. In order to get a full understanding of Genesis chapters 1-3, I am sure that you are aware that it is also vitally important to study all of the rest of the different passages of the Old Testament and New Testament within their context so that all of what God has in the Bible regarding the topic of creationism.
 
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trophy33

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Historical and cultural context is an important consideration when it comes to Biblical hermeneutics. Therefore, it is also important to look at all of the different passages (not individual verses) of the Bible from both the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. In order to get a full understanding of Genesis chapters 1-3, I am sure that you are aware that it is also vitally important to study all of the rest of the different passages of the Old Testament and New Testament within their context so that all of what God has in the Bible regarding the topic of creationism.
The historical and cultural context was different for different Scriptures. They have been written and composed during almost a thousand years. The Babylonian and pre-Babylonian context of Genesis, the Egyptian context of Exodus, the Assyrian context of some prophets and the Greco-Roman context of the most of the New Testament is not "one biblical context". And its not always a good idea to simply connect various places of the Bible together.

Not only time periods or empires were different, but also places, of course.

One easy to see example:
Mesopotamian mythological concepts of beginnings in the Old Testament (waters, Leviathan) vs the European philosophical concept of beginnings in the New Testament (Logos).
 
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Semper-Fi

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What else does it mean to walk with God?
Can two walk together unless thy are in agreement?
Enoch walked with God, a preacher of righteousness.

He preached righteousness, which is God's standard of conduct.
 
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Semper-Fi

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There's nothing out of context about it.
Most of the stuff you post on ancient near east cosmology/myths,
claiming it is what the bible describes is totally out of context.
Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’
Job 22:14
KJV Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not;...

Reading Job 22:1-13 about wicked men are mentioned in the context.
God Hides from people, like barring them from the garden. Or when
God hide himself from the House of Israel, or not hear some prayers.
God does not see/hear from wicked sinful mankind, but not from all men.

And as noted above, thick clouds veil Him so that He does not see
So "thick clouds" in the Atmosphere/1st heaven stops God from seeing?
The bible says that God sees everything, nothing can hide from him.
This does not describe how the heavens where/are made/ or cosmology.

...and he walks on the vault of heaven.’
Job 22:14

KJV Job 22:14 ...."and he walketh in the circuit of heaven".

circuit H2329
חוּג
chûg
khoog
From H2328; a circle: - circle, circuit, compassive
Total KJV occurrences: 3

H2328
חוּג
chûg
khoog
A primitive root (compare H2287); to describe a circle: - compassive
Total KJV occurrences: 1

Heaven here is dual, the atmosphere/firmament above the earth,
and the vast universe- the water [above the firmament].
.
heaven H8064
שָׁמֶה שָׁמַיִם
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'

The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused
root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding
to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher
ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).
Total KJV occurrences: 421

Did you know the sun, the moon, the earth, and every
star, or plant, or moon, in the universe run/s on a circuit?

The heavens run on circuits.
Our Solar System is in the Milky Way galaxy that has several satellite
galaxies and part of the Local Group of galaxies, which form part of
the Virgo Supercluster, a component of the Laniakea Supercluster.
It is estimated that there are between 200 billion[7] (2×1011)
to 2 trillion[8] galaxies in the observable universe.

God made heaven and earth; he can walk wherever he wants.
The bible says God walks in the circuit of heaven! I believe Him.
Nothing about ancient near east cosmology/myths in verse.
 
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Semper-Fi

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Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4
I love Psalm 19:1-7, The heavens do declare the glory of God

"Understanding these stellar harmonies represents a revolution in astronomy.
By "listening" for stellar sound waves with telescopes, scientists can figure
out what stars are made of, how old they are, how big they are and how they
contribute to the evolution of our Milky Way galaxy as a whole.

Heavenly music! Do you know of any near east cosmology/myths like this?

...In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

tent H168
אֹהֶל
'ôhel
o'-hel
From H166; a tent (as clearly conspicuous from a distance):
- covering, (dwelling) (place), home, tabernacle, tent.
Total KJV occurrences: 345

a tent / dwelling/ place/ tabernacle. Where does the sun dwell?

The Sun rotates on its axis as it revolves around the galaxy.
It takes about 230 million years for the Sun to make one
complete trip/ or circuit around the Milky Way.

That is one big tent, or better a [dwelling place] or home for [the sun].

6 His(the sun) going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit
unto the ends of it: And there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

"Its gravity holds the solar system together, keeping everything from
the biggest planets to the smallest bits of debris in orbit around it."

"Gravity is the most significant interaction between objects at the
macroscopic scale, and it determines the motion of planets, stars,
galaxies, and even light." [Gravity]Wikipedia [sun]

God made a dwelling place for the sun to reside in, the 2nd heaven.
 
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Vambram

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And its not always a good idea to simply connect various places of the Bible together.
Obviously, I completely and totally disagree with the conclusion of your analysis.
 
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trophy33

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Obviously, I completely and totally disagree with the conclusion of your analysis.
I am not surprised. When you do not believe you need anything outside of the Bible to understand the Bible, you must replace it with a belief that Bible itself must somehow complete every biblical idea, by some mysterious personal connecting the dots from different places and contexts inside the Bible.

An extreme Sola Scriptura application.
 
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Palmfever

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Following is part of an article titled, "What is reality"
Origins Excerpt

Even though we don’t fully understand what reality is – and may never do so – that doesn’t stop us from asking where it came from. It will come as no surprise that answering this question is far from easy. Just ask the people whose day job it is. They don’t agree on much, except that it is a tough gig. “We are in a difficult situation,” says Daniele Oriti at the Max Planck Institute for Gravitational Physics in Germany. “We are fishes in the pond and trying to infer the situation of our pond.”

The conventional origin story of the pond is the big bang. In this account, the universe simply popped into existence out of nothingness 13.8 billion years ago, triggering an expansion that has continued without pause ever since. It is a picture that aligns well with the available evidence – such as the ongoing expansion of the universe – but hasn’t yet been definitively accepted.

Perhaps that is no surprise given the unfathomable core of the big bang theory: how nothingness can give rise to an entire universe. Another major stumbling block is the moment just after the universe popped into existence, when its entirety would have been concentrated into a point of infinite density and temperature. “We do not have any theory that describes the universe at ultra-high temperatures and ultra-high densities,” says Anna Ijjas, also at the Max Planck Institute for Gravitational Physics. That means our knowledge of these first few instants remains fundamentally incomplete.

Better theories might yet fill these gaps. Or they might render them obsolete by showing that there was no beginning for space and time. That is the explanation Ijjas favours. She says that our universe’s beginning coincided with a previous universe’s end. Think of it as an hourglass, with two halves connected by an incredibly narrow neck. In this model, the universe would once have had a radius of 10-25 centimetres, more than a billion times smaller than the radius of an electron. That is vanishingly small, but infinitely bigger than the nothingness required for the big bang.

This hourglass model is known as the big bounce, and it has dramatic consequences for reality. Because theoretical calculations dictate that the preceding universe must have been similar to our own, its origin must also be similar. That means it, too, would have begun from the collapse of a preceding universe, and so on throughout eternity. “In our model, space-time never vanishes,” says Ijjas. In other words, reality has always existed and there was no beginning.

That seems difficult to imagine. “It’s somewhat counter-intuitive,” concedes Ijjas. But the alternative – the total absence of reality before space and time came into existence – is more difficult. “It’s infinitely more difficult,” she says.

What came before?
Oriti favours another alternative. For him, the big bang represents not the birth of the universe, but the moment the universe assumed its current form, with intelligible properties such as space and time. He compares it to a phase transition such as the moment steam condenses to liquid water. “All sorts of notions that you apply as a fish in the water simply do not apply to a gas,” he says.

Before this phase transition, notions of space and time are meaningless, and reality itself becomes fundamentally indescribable. Even the word “before” is inaccurate, says Oriti. “The notion of time ceases to apply.” What’s more, because all phase transitions are, at least in theory, reversible, the universe could return to this timeless state again at some point in the future, presumably with dire consequences for us. If “future” is even the right word.

This inability to talk about reality in everyday terms seems incredibly frustrating. “We get frustrated as well,” says Oriti. “I sympathise, but get used to it.” Reality, it seems, is truly beyond words.

Is reality the same everywhere?

Jason Arunn Murugesu
TRAVEL anywhere in the known universe and, like Coca-Cola, the laws of nature always taste the same. That is a basic tenet of physics called the cosmological principle, which holds that our patch of the universe is a representative sample of the rest.

This, as far as we can tell, is true. Certainly in the bits of the universe that we can see, the laws of physics are “uncannily the same”, says Richard Bower at Durham University in the UK. But an important caveat here is “the bits we can see”. What about those we can’t?

There are bits of the universe that are out of sight. Forever. These aren’t the exotic parallel universes conjured up by string theory or quantum mechanics, but an unavoidable consequence of workaday cosmology. Because the universe is expanding at breakneck speed yet the speed of light is finite, the outer reaches of the universe have disappeared over the cosmic horizon, forever out of contact as light from them could never reach us. The known universe inside the horizon stretches about 46 billion light years in all directions. How much there is beyond that isn’t known, but it is possible that there are places beyond the horizon where the laws of physics are different.

One reason for thinking this may be true is that our laws are bizarrely and arbitrarily conducive to life. Cosmologists call this fine-tuning. If any of the laws of physics were slightly different, we couldn’t exist. As just one example, if the strong nuclear force, which holds protons and neutrons together inside atoms, were slightly stronger, the sun would have exploded long before life got started on Earth. There are many other examples of fine-tuning, collectively known as the “Goldilocks paradox” because so many of the laws are just right. And paradoxical it is. “There’s no explanation for why they are the value they are,” says Bower. “You’ve just got to go, ‘That’s the way it is’.”

The odds of a universe with the exact specifications that can sustain life are so low that many physicists argue that there must be other places where the laws are different. It just so happens that we live in a life-friendly patch of universe because, well, it couldn’t be any other way.

And that’s just in our universe. There are almost certainly others. Multiverses are a consequence of many theories, including black hole physics and string theory. Not all produce different laws of physics, but some do. String theory, for instance, conjures up 10500 universes, all with different laws of physics.

Could we ever know if any of this is true? The reality is that other universes, if they exist, are probably forever inaccessible to us. “Multiverse theories must in principle be taken quite seriously, but proposals to test them don’t get very far,” says Simon Friederich at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

For now, we have to study what we can see. But there is an upside to this: it makes reality tractable. “If there is just one universe, then we might have a good chance of discovering basically everything about physics,” says Tim Blackwell at Goldsmiths, University of London. Unfortunately, that would be like assuming you understood all of biodiversity by cataloguing life on a small island. Reality may well be different elsewhere, but the cosmos is too big for us to know for sure.
 
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Vambram

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I am not surprised. When you do not believe you need anything outside of the Bible to understand the Bible, you must replace it with a belief that Bible itself must somehow complete every biblical idea, by some mysterious personal connecting the dots from different places and contexts inside the Bible.

An extreme Sola Scriptura application.
What I have been attempting to demonstrate with my beliefs is that if a belief, or cultural belief, or interpretation of evidence disagrees with clear and easy to understand passages of Scriptures, then I shall believe what the Lord God had told the authors of the Scriptures to write down. Those original manuscripts were inerrant. Obviously, we have translations based upon copies of those manuscripts. Are those copies 100% perfect? Of course they are not. Nevertheless, on the topic of creation, there are multiple passages of Scriptures from both the OT and the NT. When those passages of Scripture are easily understood to show YEC, then that it what I believe. However, there are also academic scientists from several different fields of science whom are still as of this day also believing that the scientific AS WELL as the Biblical evidence shows that the earth is NOT millions of years old. Over the course of the last 20 years, I have read dozens of articles from YEC scientists.

These scientific studies and articles backing up YEC can be found within the following websites.



 
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Palmfever

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When I look at creationists and those who deny evolution, I cannot but be struck at how ungenerous they are with evolutionary theory. How much they zero in on faults and failings. How much they seek to criticise and subject it to standards other than its own. How they leap to speak of the gaps it doesn't explain, rather than face the power of the things it does. It is as if they need to belittle it and comprehend only a smaller, weaker version of it, because if they truly considered it with generosity, courage, and faith, and gave it the best possible hearing, they would lose who they are.
I appreciate your post. My thought on science is as follows. Science is the study of Creation.
I personally have no issue with some degree of evolution if I perceive it as building blocks at the cosmic level. A progression. How God did it I will never know here on earth. In heaven I doubt I'll consider my physical experiences and concerns. While working through this boot camp on earth It is however interesting to note that fine minds of science make no claim to absolute truth.
I do.
I am not concerned with the details, I know God created it.
And I appreciate His interest in my life. I have no words to define Him. He is. Or, as He states, I AM.
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Romans, 1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Yet. the magnitude of His work is truly fascinating. See post 72

Neither the acceptance of a literal 6 earth day span, nor the position that the 1'st 4 days were different until the sun began to regulate our days and seasons rise to the level of blasphemy of the Spirit of God.
 
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trophy33

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When those passages of Scripture are easily understood to show YEC, then that it what I believe.
When they show God's fight with a multi-headed dragon, thinking being in kidneys or stars in a firmament with waters above them, then is that what you believe too?
 
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Vambram

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Inerrant how? And how do you know?
Do you believe that the infallible Lord God Almighty would have made sure that the original manuscripts were inerrant, or that He would have allowed them to have errors and/or discrepancies?
 
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trophy33

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Do you believe that the infallible Lord God Almighty would have made sure that the original manuscripts were inerrant, or that He would have allowed them to have errors and/or discrepancies?
Without them being 100% preserved it would have no meaning.

What do you mean by inerrant, though?
 
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Vambram

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When they show God's fight with multi-headed dragon, thinking being in kidneys or stars in a firmament with waters above them, then is that what you believe too?
Please do not ridicule me, which it looks like you are doing. Obviously, any Christian with at least a little bit of common sense and education understands the difference between poetry and prose in the Bible.
 
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trophy33

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Please do not ridicule me, which it looks like you are doing. Obviously, any Christian with at least a little bit of common sense and education understands the difference between poetry and prose in the Bible.
You do not know that the passage about stars in the firmament is in the same text as the creation in 6 days? If you do know that, do not ridicule yourself with cherrypicking.
 
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