How can I comprehend creationism as anything other than a lack of faith?

[BobRyan]

There's nothing in the Bible to indicate that earth is a sphere

How about the one that says that the boundary between darkness and light on the Earth - is a circle. Job 26:10


That is exactly what we expect to see in the case of the intersection of a sphere with a plane. If the Earth were simply a flat plate then there would be light across all points on the side facing the sun - no "circle at the boundary" between light and dark.
But that does not mean that in the Bible we have been given all the laws of the universe.

, not anything indicating heliocentrism either

The Bible does not say the Earth is the center of the universe or that the sun is the center of the universe.

 

[BobRyan]

What does the Bible say about creation vs. evolution? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about creation vs. evolution? Is creation vs. evolution a question of science, or a question of sin?

www.gotquestions.org

Atheists who support evolution frequently mock creation and/or intelligent design as unscientific and not worthy of scientific examination. In order for something to be considered a “science,” they argue, it must be “naturalistic.” Creation, by definition, is beyond the rules of the natural world.

Indeed they argue that the atheist world view is by definition science - anything else , they claim - is religion.

That means that things that happen in real life, in real history - like the resurrection cannot possibly have happened since in the atheist world view - such a thing could not have happened in real life, in real history, in physical reality -- because it "does not happen by itself"

Cars exist -- and they too did not happen by themselves.. Cars are good evidence for the fact that there are auto factories, engineers, minders, chemists, electricians, welders etc.

 

[Chris35]

I wouldn't put creationism to a lack of faith. If anything evolution is a lack of understanding of Gods power.

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food

Jonah 4:5
Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine.

But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered.


Although Lazarus had been entombed for four days by the time Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was raised by Jesus from the dead and emerged from the tomb wearing his burial cloths.

 Lazarus was dead four days, that's four days of decomposing. Again the body must of been Healed of all its deformities in that time instantly in order for I'm to have a functional body.

If we look at the miracles / testimonies of others. We can see examples of broken bones being Healed instantly. Which is also a form of accelerated growth.


If anything we can say that God has the power to do both ways, cause evolution or create in a short time frame.

 

[Job 33:6]

in reality from space -- it is a circle.

On a flat plate looking toward the horizon is not 'dark' if you are in the daytime. It is all light.

What I'm saying is that, the boundary between light and dark is where the sun sets. And this is how it's understood in a flat earth context.

When the sun sets, it crosses a boundary where it then becomes unseen.

Just face it, the Bible doesn't have any passages supporting heliocentrism or a spherical earth.

But it does have plenty of passages about earth resting on pillars.

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14

‬For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6


There is no shortage of flat earth passages. But in response, your passage simply points out that the sun sets. Which is something that would be the case in an ancient cosmology just the same.

 

[BobRyan]

What I'm saying is that, the boundary between light and dark is where the sun sets

sunset is what you see at the boundary when you look up - but looking down at the Earth from space -- you will see a boundary in the form of a circle that goes all the way around the world.

If you are standing on Earth at that boundary - you will not see a circle of darkness around your position of light. There is no place on Earth where you can stand and be in the light - and see out at the horizon darkness in a circle around you in all directions.

 

[BobRyan]

I wouldn't put creationism to a lack of faith. If anything evolution is a lack of understanding of Gods power.

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food

Jonah 4:5
Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine.

But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered.


Although Lazarus had been entombed for four days by the time Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was raised by Jesus from the dead and emerged from the tomb wearing his burial cloths.

 Lazarus was dead four days, that's four days of decomposing. Again the body must of been Healed of all its deformities in that time instantly in order for I'm to have a functional body.

If we look at the miracles / testimonies of others. We can see examples of broken bones being Healed instantly. Which is also a form of accelerated growth.


If anything we can say that God has the power to do both ways, cause evolution or create in a short time frame.

In fact - the one-day old Adam and Eve could not have survived on day 7 on their own as single cell zygotes nor even as fully formed one day old infants. They had to have accelerated into fully formed adults in less than a day. Same is true of plants on day 3 that get eaten by animals on day 5 and 6.

 

[Chris35]

In fact - the one-day old Adam and Eve could not have survived on day 7 on their own as single cell zygotes nor even as fully formed one day old infants. They had to have accelerated into fully formed adults in less than a day. Same is true of plants on day 3 that get eaten by animals on day 5 and 6.

Yeah exactly and if God did cause accelerated growth, it would be impossible for science to tell.

 

[Job 33:6]

sunset is what you see at the boundary when you look up - but looking down at the Earth from space -- you will see a boundary in the form of a circle that goes all the way around the world.

If you are standing on Earth at that boundary - you will not see a circle of darkness around your position of light. There is no place on Earth where you can stand and be in the light - and see out at the horizon darkness in a circle around you in all directions.

If you go outside, and you look straight ahead, there is a boundary between light and dark, the horizon. Pretty simple. When the sun is above the boundary, that is the horizon, the sun is up. When the sun sets below that boundary, the sun is down. It's the boundary between light and dark. Has nothing to do with Earth being spherical.

And a circle, is just as it says. It's a circle. There's no mention of a sphere here.

This is an example of how confused Christians have become about the Bible. They think that the "circle of the earth" is evidence that the Bible affirms a spherical planet. As if they don't know what a circle is.

Meanwhile:
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6



Flat earth passages are explicit and detailed.‭

 

[BobRyan]

If you go outside, and you look straight ahead, there is a boundary between light and dark, the horizon

but not in all directions. If you are standing in the light then it will always be light to your west in the evening and light in the east in the morning even if the other side is dark-er.

What you never see is dark all around you in a circle while you stand in the light.

. Pretty simple.

agreed.

The only time you will see "a circle" at the boundary between light and dark on Earth - is if you are standinig above the earth and notice that the intersection between the globe and that plane of light - is always a circle. Which is always the case when it comes to the intersection of globes and planes.

 

[Job 33:6]

but not in all directions. If you are standing light then it will always be light to your west in the evening and light in the east in the morning if the other side is dark.

The boundary separates what is above the horizon from what is below. And yes, this horizon exists in all directions.

What you never see is dark all around you in a circle while you stand in the light.

The passage is simply about the horizon, a boundary between when the sun is up, and when the sun is down. That's all.

The only time you will see "a circle" at the boundary between light and dark on Earth - is if you are standinig above the earth and notice that the intersection between the globe and that plane of light - is always a circle. Which is always the case when it comes to the intersection of globes and planes.

You can stand on the earth and view the horizon as a circle. The sky naturally appears bowl shaped and the horizon appears equally distant on all sides.

Just face it, there is no passage in the Bible that plainly states that earth is a sphere.

All you're doing is mental gymnastics with the word "circle" to try to make it fit.

Meanwhile:

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Flat earth passages are explicit

 

[BobRyan]

The boundary separates what is above the horizon from what is below. And yes, this horizon exists in all directions.


The passage is simply about the horizon, a boundary between when the sun is up, and when the sun is down. That's all.

There is no case when you see dark all around you at the horizon while you stand in the light.

By contrast every single second of the day - there is a literal circle boundary - at the boundary between light and dark on planet Earth - because it is in fact a sphere intersecting the plane of light from the sun at that edge point.

All you're doing is mental gymnastics with the word "circle" to try to make it fit.

Literal circle at the boundary between light and dark - because that is factually the intersection of a sphere with a plane.

It don't see how this simple fact in geometry messes up anything when it comes to the Word of God.

Is God not supposed to "know this" fact about the Earth in your POV?
Is He not supposed to be able to tell Job about it in your POV?

How is it you have problem with this basic fact?

===

If you are stressed at the idea that God knew this and told it to Job - then what about God's understanding of Genetics in the book of Genesis vs the superstition/guessing of Jacob in that regard - corrected by God? Gen 30 and 31.

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 30 -- Jacob's superstition

37 Now Jacob took for himself rods of green poplar and of the almond and chestnut trees, peeled white strips in them, and exposed the white which was in the rods. 38 And the rods which he had peeled, he set before the flocks in the gutters, in the watering troughs where the flocks came to drink, so that they should conceive when they came to drink. 39 So the flocks conceived before the rods, and the flocks brought forth streaked, speckled, and spotted. 40 Then Jacob separated the lambs, and made the flocks face toward the streaked and all the brown in the flock of Laban; but he put his own flocks by themselves and did not put them with Laban’s flock.


41 And it came to pass, whenever the stronger livestock conceived, that Jacob placed the rods before the eyes of the livestock in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods. 42 But when the flocks were feeble, he did not put them in; so the feebler were Laban’s and the stronger Jacob’s. 43 Thus the man became exceedingly prosperous, and had large flocks, female and male servants, and camels and donkeys.

Gen 31 - God's correction
10 “And it happened, at the time when the flocks conceived, that I lifted my eyes and saw in a dream, and behold, the rams which leaped upon the flocks were streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted. 11 Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ”

Instead of "yeah Jacob those striped poles are causing the females to bear streaked, speckled, spotted offspring... good plan !" - it is the genetic fact that the rams that God is allowing to mate are only the ones with that specific genetic trait so that the result is in Jacob's favor..

 

[BobRyan]

As in the case with the sphere intersecting a plane and the intersection being a circle - we have the science fact that the outcome for spotted, speckled offspring is determined by the genetics of which Rams God is allowing to mate.

And oh by the way - God knows what a seven day week is and was able to convey that basic fact in the legal code of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:2-3 for just exactly how long He took to create all life on Earth - from pretty much nothing but dust.

This also goes for Jesus rising from the dead "on the third day" as Christ points out in Matt 16 and as reported in Luke 24.

God is accurate in His statements - as surprising as some may find that idea to be.

 

[Vambram]

There's nothing in the Bible to indicate that earth is a sphere, not anything indicating heliocentrism either. And you don't have to be an atheist to be aware of this. It's just basic acceptance that the Bible was written long before such things were discovered. It's the same reason we don't find passages about the internet, social media, space shuttles, quantum physics, airplanes, electric cars, gravity, atomic theory etc.

Such things just didn't exist back then or were unknown to the original authors.

And a lot of Christians struggle with this basic reality, but it is what it is.

What do you believe that the Bible says concerning creationism verses evolutionism?

 

[Vambram]

Flat earth passages are explicit and detailed.‭

Almost each and everyone of those verses of the Bible you referenced are using symbolic and poetic language. I believe it is a real mistake to attempt to use poetry and symbols to try to prove that the Bible is teaching that the Flat earth theory.

 

[Job 33:6]

Almost each and everyone of those verses of the Bible you referenced are using symbolic and poetic language. I believe it is a real mistake to attempt to use poetry and symbols to try to prove that the Bible is teaching that the Flat earth theory.

Well here is the catch. I never said that the Bible was teaching "flat earth theory".

And of course you would identify these flat earth passages as "poetry".

Have you considered the simple explanation that the Bible describes ancient near east cosmology? The same cosmology described by every other civilization in the region?

It's right there in front of you guys, the reason the Bible speaks in this way. I am just handing it to you on a silver platter, and you're seemingly in denial.

 

[Vambram]

Instead of attempting to understand the ancient Israeli view of cosmology, and instead of attempting to understand ancient near east cosmology,
I believe that it is much, much better to actually understand what the Bible in both the Old and New Testament actually does say.

 

[Vambram]

The Old Testament has multitude of examples where the beliefs and practices of the Israelites were in direct contradiction to what God Himself told them to believe and practice.

 

[Job 33:6]

Instead of attempting to understand the ancient Israeli view of cosmology, and instead of attempting to understand ancient near east cosmology,
I believe that it is much, much better to actually understand what the Bible in both the Old and New Testament actually does say.

Ancient near east cosmology, as known by nations of the ancient near east, involves earth resting on pillars.

I just gave you Bible passages also describing earth resting on pillars. The Bible originated in the ancient near east.

You think this is just some random coincidence?

Its astonishing the lengths people will go to reject the obvious description that the Bible gives of an ancient Isrealite cosmology.

It is better to understand what the Bible actually says. So lets start by observing the obvious reality that the Bible describes an ancient Isrealite cosmology. This is Bible study 101. I'm informing you of what the Bible is saying. And denial will not help you understand it.

 

[Vambram]

Ancient near east cosmology, as known by nations of the ancient near east, involves earth resting on pillars.

I just gave you Bible passages also describing earth resting on pillars. The Bible originated in the ancient near east.

You think this is just some random coincidence?

The "resting on pillars" is poetic symbolism not meant to be interpreted literally.

Do you believe that the original manuscripts of the Bible are inerrant and inspired by the Lord God?