How can I comprehend creationism as anything other than a lack of faith?

[Job 33:6]

The "resting on pillars" is poetic symbolism not meant to be interpreted literally.

Do you believe that the original manuscripts of the Bible are inerrant and inspired by the Lord God?

just answer the question. In the ancient near east, nations described earth as resting on pillars as a part of an ancient near east cosmology.

The Bible was written and originated in the ancient near east. And the Bible, as I've shown you, speaks of earth resting on pillars.

Do you think this is merely a coincidence?

This is step number 1 toward understanding the Bible. First you have to acknowledge what it says. Questions about whether its poetry or "literal" or what it means for inerrancy, these are all secondary questions.

First you have to observe what the text says and accept the reality of what it describes. Denial will not help you grow in the word.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ancient near east cosmology, as known by nations of the ancient near east, involves earth resting on pillars.

I just gave you Bible passages also describing earth resting on pillars. The Bible originated in the ancient near east.

You think this is just some random coincidence?

Its astonishing the lengths people will go to reject the obvious description that the Bible gives of an ancient Isrealite cosmology.

It is better to understand what the Bible actually says. So lets start by observing the obvious reality that the Bible describes an ancient Isrealite cosmology. This is Bible study 101. I'm informing you of what the Bible is saying. And denial will not help you understand it.

And @Vambram, you have to be mature in your studies before coming around in debates. Or people are going to beat you up. And this is where the discussion on science and faith begins. This is ground zero. You wont be able to make any progress in the evolution vs creation debate, if you cant get past this first hurdle.

It begins with, the Bible.

 

[Vambram]

I have answered your question. But I shall do so again. Is it merely coincidence that the Lord God uses poetic symbolism which was then misinterpreted by humans to actually come up with their own culture's versions of near east cosmology? Of course it is not merely coincidence. There is Biblical proof that even in the Garden of Eden, the Devil was twisting God's word and using deceitful falsehoods to deceive Adam and Eve. The Devil has not strayed from his playbook of using half-truths, falsehoods, and lies to deceive people into believing something other than what the Creator of the universe said which the Lord God had written down in the inerrant, inspired original manuscripts of the Scriptures.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have answered your question. But I shall do so again. Is it merely coincidence that the Lord God uses poetic symbolism which was then misinterpreted by humans to actually come up with their own culture's versions of near east cosmology? Of course it is not merely coincidence. There is Biblical proof that even in the Garden of Eden, the Devil was twisting God's word and using deceitful falsehoods to deceive Adam and Eve. The Devil has not strayed from his playbook of using half-truths, falsehoods, and lies to deceive people into believing something other than what the Creator of the universe said which the Lord God had written down in the inerrant, inspired original manuscripts of the Scriptures.

Just because something is poetry, doesn't mean that it stops saying what it says.

If I said that the earth rests on pillars, even if I am speaking poetically, am I not still saying what I am saying?

If you had a pencil and paper, and I told you that earth rested on pillars, if you had to draw what I said, what would you draw?

Saying that something is poetry, does not somehow remove it or prevent it from saying what it says.

I could tell you a poem about a bird. With the most vibrant rainbow colored wings that stretch to the ends of the earth. That's poetry.

But at the end of the day, I am still describing a colorful bird, am I not?

 

[Vambram]

@Job 33:6
I really don't mind that you suggest that I be mature in these kinds of studies. I don't mind that suggestion because you do not know anything about my past. However, I would like to inform you that I have been involved in creation verses evolution debates for at least 40 years. I praise the Lord God for all of the teachings which I have had in two different Bible colleges back in the 1980s. If you would like to learn a little bit more about me, then I invite you to look and read my profile on this forum.

 

[Job 33:6]

@Job 33:6
I really don't mind that you suggest that I be mature in these kinds of studies. I don't mind that suggestion because you do not know anything about my past. However, I would like to inform you that I have been involved in creation verses evolution debates for at least 40 years. I praise the Lord God for all of the teachings which I have had in two different Bible colleges back in the 1980s. If you would like to learn a little bit more about me, then I invite you to look and read my profile on this forum.

Sure.

So, the Bible says that earth rests on pillars. You call it poetry. That's fine. But does it not still say what it says? Even if viewed as poetry, it still describes earth resting on pillars. Right? That's what it says.

 

[Vambram]

Sure.

So, the Bible says that earth rests on pillars. You call it poetry. That's fine. But does it not still say what it says? Even if viewed as poetry, it still describes earth resting on pillars. Right? That's what it says.

Do you believe that the earth is actually resting on pillars? Or, do you want to interpret the symbolism?

 

[Job 33:6]

Do you believe that the earth is actually resting on pillars? Or, do you want to interpret the symbolism?

I'm fine with the text being poetic. But again... what does the text say? If you had a pencil and paper, what would you draw if you had to illustrate the passage? You would draw... that's right, you would draw, earth, on pillars.

You wouldn't randomly start drawing birds or airplanes, or the sun, or a cheeseburger. You would draw what the text says. An image comes into your mind. Earth, on pillars.

And I know that this image comes to your mind, which is why you are getting so defensive over the topic.

But just receive the image. Don't deny it or reject it. Don't shut it out. Just let the Bible speaks to you. Let the text say what it says.

 

[Vambram]

I promise you, my friend, that I am not getting defensive. Please do not accuse me of something when you cannot read my mind, or hear the audible words of my voice. I do indeed let the Bible speak to me and let the text says what it says, and by the grace and mercy and blessings from the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit; I interpret the Scriptures. What I don't understand about you, sir, is why you are fine with it being poetic and interpreting it accordingly, but then that you as an auto mechanic an Bible enthusiast, had to keep going on and on with what appears to me an attempt to literally interpret symbols and poetry to be understand as literal science.

 

[Job 33:6]

Do you believe that the earth is actually resting on pillars? Or, do you want to interpret the symbolism?

passage number 2.

Again, not asking if its poetry or not. Not even at a point of discussing inerrancy yet.

Amos 9:6 NASB
The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name.

Job 22:14 NASB
‘Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; And He walks on the vault of heaven.’

So we have earth on pillars.

Now, if we read Amos 9:6 and Job 22:14 and we went to draw it on a piece of paper, what would it look like? A vaulted dome over the earth. Thick clouds veil him, so that He does not see, and He walks on this Vault.

If you went to draw it, what would that look like? Just let the text speak.

This is ESV this next passage:
Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror? Job 37:18

These are very conservative translations. But what do you see? What does the text say?

There's earth on pillars. There's God, walking on a vault, with the clouds around Him. This Vault or vaulted dome over the earth (NASB Amos 9:6). And the skies are "hard", spread out "hard" as a cast metal mirror, or cast bronze.

Poetry? Sure. But what does it describe if you had to draw it on a piece of paper?

 

[Job 33:6]

I promise you, my friend, that I am not getting defensive. Please do not accuse me of something when you cannot read my mind, or hear the audible words of my voice. I do indeed let the Bible speak to me and let the text says what it says, and by the grace and mercy and blessings from the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit; I interpret the Scriptures. What I don't understand about you, sir, is why you are fine with it being poetic and interpreting it accordingly, but then that you as an auto mechanic an Bible enthusiast, had to keep going on and on with what appears to me an attempt to literally interpret symbols and poetry to be understand as literal science.

Even as poetry, the Bible still says what it says.

Again. I could write a poem right now:

The beautiful rainbow bird flew as high as the stars. Its wings were as soft as the clouds, its beauty was like a rainbow of brilliance.

That's poetry. But there's still something being said in the text. You cant just say "well its poetry, so I guess its actually about a cheeseburger". No. The poem still speaks about something. Does it not?

saying "well its poetry" is not a get-out-of-jail free card for interpreting the Bible any way you want to. The text still says what it says. Well Jesus was speaking poetically about the good Samaritan, so I guess that means I can interpret the story to be about anything I want.

No. That's not how it works. I cant just replace the good Samaritan with dinosaurs and space shuttles. Poetry or not, that's not what the parable is about.

Poetry or not, you still have to embrace what the text is saying (if you care about what God is communicating).

 

[Vambram]

Poetry? Sure. But what does it describe if you had to draw it on a piece of paper?

It does not really really matter what it describes if I had to draw it out on a piece of paper. What matters is what the different passages of Scripture are teaching. I do not want to take a verse out of context from the rest of the verses in a passage of the Bible. It really does look like that you are taking verses out of context and attempting to try to get those different verses to teach something that the Old and New Testament does not teach at all.

 

[Job 33:6]

It does not really really matter what it describes if I had to draw it out on a piece of paper. What matters is what the different passages of Scripture are teaching. I do not want to take a verse out of context from the rest of the verses in a passage of the Bible. It really does look like that you are taking verses out of context and attempting to try to get those different verses to teach something that the Old and New Testament does not teach at all.

It does matter what it would look like.

Again, just because something is poetry, doesn't give you the authority to essentially ignore what it says.

If the passage says that earth rests on pillars, even as poetry, you cant just think "oh well I guess its talking about social media". Or "well, I guess its talking about my new Chevy malibu sedan".

There are still words in the text, that if you care about the Bible, you have to be able to receive.

The earth resting on pillars. Poetic or not, what is it plainly saying? think "Literally".

 

[Job 33:6]

It does not really really matter what it describes if I had to draw it out on a piece of paper. What matters is what the different passages of Scripture are teaching. I do not want to take a verse out of context from the rest of the verses in a passage of the Bible. It really does look like that you are taking verses out of context and attempting to try to get those different verses to teach something that the Old and New Testament does not teach at all.

If you want to understand the creation and evolution topic, you have to be able to let the Bible speak to you. You have to be able to let the Bible say what it says.

And until you can do that, you'll never find resolution.

If the Bible says that the earth has been set on pillars, you have to be willing to allow the Bible to speak into your heart. You have to be able to receive it as it is written. You have to be willing to submit to the authority of scripture.

And if the Bible says that God set the world on pillars, your gut reaction cannot be to reject this and to turn away from what it says. And to start throwing your guard up, talking about inerrancy and trying to argue against flat earth theories and things like this.

This discussion has nothing to do with "flat earth theories". This is about having your heart in the right place to receive scripture, as it was written.

 

[Vambram]

What matters is what the different passages of Scripture are teaching. I do not want to take a verse out of context from the rest of the verses in a passage of the Bible. It really does look like that you are taking verses out of context and attempting to try to get those different verses to teach something that the Old and New Testament does not teach at all.

 

[Vambram]

If you want to understand the creation and evolution topic, you have to be able to let the Bible speak to you. You have to be able to let the Bible say what it says.

I really do understand the creation and evolution topic and what the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament says and speaks concerning creation and evolution. For more than 40 years, I have had a very clear understanding of what the Old and New Testament speaks about the topic of creation.

 

[Semper-Fi]

There are also zero scriptural passages in the Bible that teach a spherical earth

That face of the deep

The Deep. Waters? - The Waters which were under the firmament [He called Seas] There is the sea, great and broad, In which are swarms without number, Animals both small and great. Psalm 104:25 "There is [the sea], vast and spacious, teeming with [creatures beyond number]". The number of...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Job 33:6]

What matters is what the different passages of Scripture are teaching. I do not want to take a verse out of context from the rest of the verses in a passage of the Bible. It really does look like that you are taking verses out of context and attempting to try to get those different verses to teach something that the Old and New Testament does not teach at all.

There's nothing out of context about it.

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’
Job 22:14

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

You'll find consistently, in every book of the old testament, a description of the firmament. A solid sky dome. NASB Amos 9:6 calls it the "Vaulted Dome of Heaven".

And as noted above, thick clouds veil Him so that He does not see, and He walks on the vault of heaven.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And this vaulted dome has an appearance of pavement of sapphire stone, as noted in the above passages.

And this Vault, rests upon the earth. Atop pillars:

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

It's not out of context. This is what the Bible says.

And either you can submit to the authority of scripture, and accept what the scriptures say. You can let the Bible say what it says. Even as poetry, it still says what it says.

Or, you can be in denial.

It's your choice.

 

[Vambram]

@Job 33, what you are denying is the very simple fact that you are taking verses out of their context and completely misinterpreting them. Until you stop taking verses out of context, and until you start interpreting symbols as symbols, then you and I have nothing to talk about in the creation vs evolution threads.

 

[trophy33]

What matters is what the different passages of Scripture are teaching. I do not want to take a verse out of context from the rest of the verses in a passage of the Bible.

And what about the cultural, historical and theological context of Scriptures? No Bible just fell from heaven.