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How can anyone like Calvinism?

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Please enlighten me, what are the primary sources of Calvin's research?

Good Day, Def

The is a forum here called ask a Calvinist we are happy to answer questions and provide in formation.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Clare73

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I won't begrudge another their experience. I can see what you're saying, for sure. I didn't see it then, but Calvinism does harbor a certain kind of arrogance. I'm at a different place, altogether, but support you on your journey.
Calvin's writings harbor no such arrogance, those who present his writings (less than accurately) harbor such arrogance.
 
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Calvin's writings harbor no such arrogance, those who present his writings (less than accurately) harbor such arrogance.

Clare, have you read Calvin? Both Luther and Calvin are about as harsh and unforgiving as one could want. Calvin's rhetoric is over the top, besides the fact that for Calvin anyone associated with the RCC is by default anti-Christ. Maybe we need to define arrogance? :rolleyes:

ETA: If you're not familiar with the harsh rhetoric of the Reformers, there's a Luther Insult Generator online that makes it clear. I can't post it here because I'm already hanging by a thread, but it's bad. Calvin was no different.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The biggest thing in my mind about Calvinism is God's absolute unwavering sovereignty. Which I am slowly coming around to accepting. If God is not completely Sovereign over all His creation, then how can we call Him God?

God choosing to give to man free will does not negate His sovereignty since it was His decision and His plan. Free will is absolutely necessary in order for love to be genuine and of any value. What value can love have if it isn’t freely given?
 
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Clare73

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Clare, have you read Calvin? Both Luther and Calvin are about as harsh and unforgiving as one could want. Calvin's rhetoric is over the top, besides the fact that for Calvin anyone associated with the RCC is by default anti-Christ. Maybe we need to define arrogance? :rolleyes:
It's been a while, don't remember the "harshness."
The question is: was he contra-Biblical in any way?
If not, I would not have found him "harsh."

Bood III on the grace of Christ was magnificent!

ETA: If you're not familiar with the harsh rhetoric of the Reformers, there's a Luther Insult Generator online that makes it clear. I can't post it here because I'm already hanging by a thread, but it's bad. Calvin was no different.
 
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It's been a while, don't remember the "harshness."
The question is: was he contra-Biblical in any way?
If not, I would not have found him "harsh."

Bood III on the grace of Christ was magnificent!

Here's an example of the arrogance I have in mind.

*Fair warning and disqualifier* I am only quoting this to make a point about his rhetoric. It does not reflect my own sentiments.

"Daniel foretold that Antichrist would sit in the Temple of God. With us, it is the Roman pontiff we make the leader and standard bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom..." (ICR IV.III.12). It goes on. That kind of rhetoric and slandering of other Christians is reprehensible and the height of arrogance, imo.
 
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Clare73

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Here's an example of the arrogance I have in mind.

*Fair warning and disqualifier* I am only quoting this to make a point about his rhetoric. It does not reflect my own sentiments.

"Daniel foretold that Antichrist would sit in the Temple of God. With us, it is the Roman pontiff we make the leader and standard bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom..." (ICR IV.III.12). It goes on. That kind of rhetoric and slandering of other Christians is reprehensible and the height of arrogance, imo.
Ok, I am aware of the attitude toward the Catholic Church of that time.

Are you aware of the egregious and gross abuses to the holy gospel of God at that time?
If ever anything called for retribution, it could certainly be those authoritarial abuses to God's holy word.
 
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friend of

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God choosing to give to man free will does not negate His sovereignty since it was His decision and His plan. Free will is absolutely necessary in order for love to be genuine and of any value. What value can love have if it isn’t freely given?

That's another reason why I can't really be fully Calvinist
 
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Ok, I am aware of the attitude toward the Catholic Church of that time.

Are you aware of the egregious and gross abuses to the holy gospel of God at that time?
If ever anything called for retribution, it could certainly be those authoritarial abuses to God's holy word.

Do you mean the selling of indulgences, Johann Tetzel?
 
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Ligurian

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Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her, There are two nations in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy belly, and one people shall excel the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.

Isaiah 44:1 But now hear, Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus saith the Lord God that made thee, and He that formed thee from the womb: Thou shalt yet be helped: fear not, My servant Jacob, and beloved Israel, whom I have chosen.

Jacob was chosen before he was born.

He was not chosen because he was 'good' in fact this point is emphasised.

What was done for Isaac... was done for the sake of Abraham...

Genesis 2:24 And the Lord appeared to him in that night and said, I am the God of Abraam thy father; fear not, for I am with thee, and I will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for the sake of Abraam thy father.

... as Solomon's kingdom was spared for a time, because of David.
I think it's safe to assume the same holds true for Jacob and Joseph.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels.

If a name needs to be blotted out, then it must have been written there, to begin with. I think that means the person was chosen... but now he's not.

The name didn't need to be blotted out - that is the whole point.

God makes sure the elect are kept from falling.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels.
exaleipho = from ek and aleipho; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin):--blot out, wipe away.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If they didn't overcome, the Father would certainly not leave their names in the Lamb's Book of Life... because sin would have control of them. And He won't be wiping away their tears, either.

The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel understand this Gospel of the Kingdom.

The indwelling Holy Spirit keeps them from falling away as promised.

Jude 24,25 NKJV
24 Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Can Jude really promise this? or is this just a closing prayer for the reader.
Where does Jude 1:24-25 say the Holy Spirit?

Iesus Commandments will obviously keep one from falling... but only if they actually DO His Commandments. (Matthew 7:24-27) Otherwise... great was the fall of it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Can Jude really promise this? or is this just a closing prayer for the reader.
Where does Jude 1:24-25 say the Holy Spirit?

Are you questioning whether the elect are indwelled by the Holy Spirit ???

Jer 32:40 is a promise that Jude would have been well aware of.
 
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Ligurian

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Are you questioning whether the elect are indwelled by the Holy Spirit ???

Jer 32:40 is a promise that Jude would have been well aware of.

Nope. But what does that verse have to do with Jude's statement?

Jeremiah 32:40 is about Judah/Jerusalem at the time of the Babylonian captivity... and her scattering... and her being brought back... but it is still future tense.

Here it is in context, (from the Septuagint, so the numbers are different)

Jeremias 39:36 And now thus has the Lord God of Israel said concerning this city, of which thou sayest, it shall be delivered into the hands of the king of Babylon by the sword and by famine and banishment.[37] Behold, I will gather them out of every land, where I have scattered them in My anger and My wrath and great fury; and I will bring them back into this place, and will cause them to dwell safely:[38] and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a god.[39] And I will give them another way and another heart, to fear Me continually, and that for good to them and their children after them.[40] And I will make with them an Everlasting Covenant, which I will by no means turn away from them, and I will put My fear into their heart, that they may not depart from Me.[41] And I will visit them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness and with all My heart and with all My soul.[42] For thus saith the Lord; As I have brought upon this people all these great evils, so will I bring upon them all the good things which I pronounced upon them.[43] And there shall yet be fields bought in the land, of which thou sayest, it shall be destitute of man and beast; and they are delivered into the hands of the Chaldeans.LXX
 
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Carl Emerson

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Nope. But what does that verse have to do with Jude's statement?

Jeremiah 32:40 is about Judah/Jerusalem at the time of the Babylonian captivity... and her scattering... and her being brought back... but it is still future tense.

Here it is in context, (from the Septuagint, so the numbers are different)

Jeremias 39:36 And now thus has the Lord God of Israel said concerning this city, of which thou sayest, it shall be delivered into the hands of the king of Babylon by the sword and by famine and banishment.[37] Behold, I will gather them out of every land, where I have scattered them in My anger and My wrath and great fury; and I will bring them back into this place, and will cause them to dwell safely:[38] and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a god.[39] And I will give them another way and another heart, to fear Me continually, and that for good to them and their children after them.[40] And I will make with them an Everlasting Covenant, which I will by no means turn away from them, and I will put My fear into their heart, that they may not depart from Me.[41] And I will visit them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness and with all My heart and with all My soul.[42] For thus saith the Lord; As I have brought upon this people all these great evils, so will I bring upon them all the good things which I pronounced upon them.[43] And there shall yet be fields bought in the land, of which thou sayest, it shall be destitute of man and beast; and they are delivered into the hands of the Chaldeans.LXX

Are you suggesting the the New Covenant promised through Jeremiah which would be characterised by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in believers is yet to come?

If so how do you account for the Holy Spirit indwelling all believers after the Cross?

John 14
16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
 
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Ligurian

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Nope. But what does that verse have to do with Jude's statement?

Jeremiah 32:40 is about Judah/Jerusalem at the time of the Babylonian captivity... and her scattering... and her being brought back... but it is still future tense.

Here it is in context, (from the Septuagint, so the numbers are different)

Jeremias 39:36 And now thus has the Lord God of Israel said concerning this city, of which thou sayest, it shall be delivered into the hands of the king of Babylon by the sword and by famine and banishment.[37] Behold, I will gather them out of every land, where I have scattered them in My anger and My wrath and great fury; and I will bring them back into this place, and will cause them to dwell safely:[38] and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a god.[39] And I will give them another way and another heart, to fear Me continually, and that for good to them and their children after them.[40] And I will make with them an Everlasting Covenant, which I will by no means turn away from them, and I will put My fear into their heart, that they may not depart from Me.[41] And I will visit them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness and with all My heart and with all My soul.[42] For thus saith the Lord; As I have brought upon this people all these great evils, so will I bring upon them all the good things which I pronounced upon them.[43] And there shall yet be fields bought in the land, of which thou sayest, it shall be destitute of man and beast; and they are delivered into the hands of the Chaldeans.LXX

Are you suggesting the the New Covenant promised through Jeremiah which would be characterised by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in believers is yet to come?

If so how do you account for the Holy Spirit indwelling all believers after the Cross?

John 14
16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Nope. I'm only saying that this verse you gave from Jeremias only applies to redeemed Judah.

Also, John 14:15-17 is still speaking to the 12 Disciples at the last Passover, which began in John 13:1 and runs until John 17:1, where Iesus is praying the Father for those who have "kept Thy word",* John 17:6.
This only applies to those who keep His Commandments... THEN He will pray the Father to give them the Holy Spirit. I've put in italics the several ways this is said.

John 14:15-26 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments:[16] and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever:[17] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him. But ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while and the world seeth Me no more, but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father and ye in Me and I in you.
[21] He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.[22] Judas saith unto Him (not Iscariot), Lord, how is it that Thou wilt manifest Thyself unto us, and not unto the world?[23] Iesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.
[24] He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.[25] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.*

John 12:44-50 Iesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken of Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 15:10 If ye keep My Commandments ye shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's Commandments and abide in His love.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the testimony of Iesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the Commandments of God and the faith of Iesus.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do His (ἐντολὰς) Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.KJV
(στολὰς = robes …VS… ἐντολὰς = commandments)

___________________
* "Thy word"/Commandments of God = John 12:50 = "My Commandments" of Iesus.

This may be THE most misunderstood concept in the New Covenant. Because many people seem to think that when Iesus says He kept the Father's Commandments, He meant He kept the Law of Moses. But since Iesus contradicts some of those Laws with the words "But I say unto you", that's obviously not what He meant. He means John 12:44-50... where the Father told Him what to say, and Iesus says the Father Commanded Him to say those words... and since the Father's Commandment is Life Eternal, Iesus kept the Father's Commandment by teaching us what the Father said. This fulfills Deuteronomy 18:18-19, where the Father puts His words into the mouth of His Prophet-Son.

When Iesus says His yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:28-30), He's speaking to those heavy-laden who carried the weight of the whole Law of Moses (Matthew 23:4)... some of which was given for those who were hard-hearted (Matthew 19:7-8). And so, maybe it was preferable, to the woman, to be divorced and never marry again... if she lived with a man who hated her and, therefore, mistreated her. An "eye for an eye" was probably a Law for the people who can't be controlled by anything other than brute force. And so the Law grew...

There were no speed limit signs before some of mankind were driving too fast for conditions. Over-protective people over-react, thinking that if they make strict-enough rules, no one will ever get hurt again.

Now, the Sermon on the Mount judges the heart before the action occurs that will injure someone (Matthew 5:21-48). (followed by practical applications in Matthew 6--Matthew 7:1-14 ... followed by Melon-Thumping-101 in Matthew 7:15-27) And the Sermon on the Mount is the Law written on the heart, IMO: Because it's called Law (Matthew 5:18) and Commandments (Matthew 5:19), for starters. And because those who keep these "sayings of Iesus" (Matthew 7:24-25) will be "keeping Iesus' Commandments" ...they will be given the Holy Spirit,(John 14:15-17) to remind them what Iesus said, and teach them what He means by that *(John 14:26). And having built their house on the Rock of the Father's words spoken by the Son, their house will not fall... as long as they continue keeping His words, and repenting (Matthew 5:23-25) and forgiving (Matthew 6:14-15), as needed.

______________________________
From one brethren to equal brethren.
This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
 
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Clare73

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What was done for Isaac... was done for the sake of Abraham...
Genesis 2:24 And the Lord appeared to him in that night and said, I am the God of Abraam thy father; fear not, for I am with thee, and I will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for the sake of Abraam thy father.
... as Solomon's kingdom was spared for a time, because of David.
I think it's safe to assume the same holds true for Jacob and Joseph.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels.
exaleipho = from ek and aleipho; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin):--blot out, wipe away.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
If they didn't overcome, the Father would certainly not leave their names in the Lamb's Book of Life... because sin would have control of them. And He won't be wiping away their tears, either.
The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel understand this Gospel of the Kingdom.
Though there are 14 appellations in the NT for the one and only gospel of Jesus Christ, there is only one gospel of Jesus Christ, and any additions, subtractions, differentiations, divisions, separations, etc. to or of it makes it another gospel which is anathema. (Galatians 1:6-9)
Can Jude really promise this? or is this just a closing prayer for the reader.
Where does Jude 1:24-25 say the Holy Spirit?

Iesus Commandments will obviously keep one from falling... but only if they actually DO His Commandments. (Matthew 7:24-27) Otherwise... great was the fall of it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I'm only saying that this verse you gave from Jeremias only applies to redeemed Judah.

Are you then claiming that the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord is not part of the Spirit of Jesus ?
 
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Ligurian

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Though there are 14 appellations in the NT for the one and only gospel of Jesus Christ, there is only one gospel of Jesus Christ, and any differentiations, divisions, separations, etc. of it makes it another gospel which is anathema. (Galatians 1:6-9)

It might be anathema to the gentiles...

But Iesus taught "This Gospel of the Kingdom"...6+ years before Paul taught "christ crucified" to the gentiles... so, "This Gospel of the Kingdom" is definitely NOT anathema "to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."

What Gospel did Jesus preach BEFORE Matthew 16:21?

The Gospel of the Kingdom
... called the Kingdom of Heaven: Matthew 3:2 Matthew 4:17 Matthew 5:3 Matthew 5:18-19 Matthew 10:5-7 Matthew 11:11-12 Matthew 13:10-11 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:52 Matthew 16:19 ...called the Kingdom of God Matthew 6:9-15 Matthew 12:27-28 ...the Gospel of the Kingdom Matthew 4:23 Matthew 9:35 Matthew 11:5

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Iesus to shew unto His Disciples how that He must go unto Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


If it's really all the same Gospel

(1) where did Paul teach Iesus' parables? (i.e., Matthew 21:33, John 10:1-6)
(2) where did Iesus teach Paul's mysteries? (i.e., 1 Corinthians 15:50-51)
 
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Carl Emerson

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I don't know anything about a spirit of fear.

Isaiah 11
1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

The seven aspects of the Holy Spirit which indwell us - include the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord which has the job of sealing the elect to righteousness as Jeremiah prophesied.
 
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