How can anyone like Calvinism?

[Ligurian]

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Do you keep the Commandments of Iesus?

___ Yes ___ No

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Ligurian]

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

 

[Clare73]

That doesn't make it relative to me. I can't wrap my head around Paul's mysteries. Tried to for years, and it didn't take. So I don't read his mail, or his biography.

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

 

[Ligurian]

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

 

[Clare73]

That doesn't make it relative to me. I can't wrap my head around Paul's mysteries. Tried to for years, and it didn't take. So I don't read his mail, or his biography.

.

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

 

[Ligurian]

That doesn't make it relative to me. Can't wrap my head around Paul's mysteries. So, not everyone can be gentile.

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed?
Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

 

[Clare73]

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed?
Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

He was an apostle as were the others (2 Corinthians 1:1; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; 1 Timothy 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:1),

with the authority of Jesus Christ, including that of Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16, as were the others,

his gospel the gospel given him by Jesus Christ as were the others (Galatians 1:11-12; 2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

And denial of or failure to recognize Paul as such is contra-Christ and contra-NT.

 

[Ligurian]

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed? Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

He was an apostle as were the others

John 8:11 "go and sin no more"

Is that being addressed to Saul of Tarsus, too? since audience doesn't matter.

 

[Clare73]

John 8:11 "go and sin no more"

Is that being addressed to Saul of Tarsus, too? since audience doesn't matter.

Red herring. . .

Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16 were spoken to apostles and disciples.
Paul enjoyed the same authority as, and more (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) than they.

 

[Ligurian]

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed?
Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

He was an apostle as were the others (2 Corinthians 1:1; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; 1 Timothy 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:1),

with the authority of Jesus Christ, including that of Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16, as were the others,

his gospel the gospel given him by Jesus Christ as were the others (Galatians 1:11-12; 2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

And denial of or failure to recognize Paul as such is contra-Christ and contra-NT.

Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16 were spoken to apostles and disciples.
Paul enjoyed the same authority as, and more (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) than they.

So then every word spoken about apostles applies to Paul?

But Paul was never called a disciple, was he?

 

[Neostarwcc]

How can anyone in their mind like the doctrine of Calvinism?

One time, thinking about the fact that Jesus actually died for every single person on earth almost made me burst into tears. Thinking about the fact that no-one would have to go to hell. But then Calvinism feels really depressing when it says that God chose some special people who are only allowed to be saved for some mysterious reason. Like being part of some special group of special people, and I absolutely hate that and it disgusts me. But thank God, it's not even true anyway according to the Bible.

I wonder how the Calvinist would feel if every person on the entire earth was a saved born-again Christian. Maybe he wouldn't feel so special about himself.

Let me get this straight so that I can understand your position better. You say that God dying for the world drives you to tears and God dying for "some" makes you angry and is very depressing. Why? God didn't just die for "some" God died for a large chunk of humanity greater than the stars in the sky from every tribe and nation. He gave his life for these people when they didn't deserve it. THAT is grace and drives ME to tears because God died for me and a large chunk of other people when we didn't deserve a thing.

You also mention that limited atonement is taught nowhere in scripture. Umm that couldn't be further from the truth the apostles taught limited atonement, God himself did in the OT scriptures and even Christ himself taught it in the gospels.

Reformed theology is taught all throughout scripture if you don't tunnel vision and twist the very few scriptures that seem to teach unlimited attonement on the surface but when you actually read them in context in the original language they teach no such thing.


Reformed theology isn't some theology the reformers made up it was taught throughout the scriptures. It's a shame people ignore scripture these days and instead go to their own religion and make up their own gods when the God of the Bible couldnt stare them any more straight in the eye in the first place.

 

[Clare73]

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

So then every word spoken about apostles applies to Paul?

But Paul was never called a disciple, was he?

Previously addressed. . .Paul was an apostle, with all the authority of and guarantees to an apostle.

 

[Ligurian]

But Paul was never called a disciple, was he?

Paul was an apostle, with all the authority of and guarantees to an apostle.

Strong's Greek: 652. ἀπόστολος (apostolos) -- a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

Within the Matthew and John Gospels,
the Greek word for apostle happens twice...

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is (ἀπόστολος) sent greater than he that sent him.
Matthew 10:1-2 And when He had called unto His Twelve Disciples, He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these

... the rest of the time, the 12 are called His Disciples.
In Matthew and John alone, they're called Disciples, 120 times.

And a (μαθητὰς) Disciple = a learner, a pupil. John 8:31.
Strong's Greek: 3101. μαθητής (mathétés) -- a disciple

 

[Clare73]

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Strong's Greek: 652. ἀπόστολος (apostolos) -- a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

Within the Matthew and John Gospels, the word apostle happens twice...

How many times must Scripture say it before it is true?

The word "apostle" appears nearly 80 times in the NT.

Your point?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Reformed theology isn't some theology the reformers made up it was taught throughout the scriptures. It's a shame people ignore scripture these days and instead go to their own religion and make up their own gods when the God of the Bible couldnt stare them any more straight in the eye in the first place.

Reformed theology is a view of scripture, a very harsh view. If you look at how the Early Church Fathers interoperate it you will see they were not into Reformed Theology but free will choice by man. They believed if we did not have free will we could not be judged or held accountable for sins. Even in the first and second centuries, some people have started to think of the scripture in terms of fatalism, or Predestination, the church fathers fight this idea, championing free will, as we see below:

Justin Martyr - First Apology
Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38
Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)​

 

[FutureAndAHope]

How can anyone in their mind like the doctrine of Calvinism?

One time, thinking about the fact that Jesus actually died for every single person on earth almost made me burst into tears. Thinking about the fact that no-one would have to go to hell. But then Calvinism feels really depressing when it says that God chose some special people who are only allowed to be saved for some mysterious reason. Like being part of some special group of special people, and I absolutely hate that and it disgusts me. But thank God, it's not even true anyway according to the Bible.

I wonder how the Calvinist would feel if every person on the entire earth was a saved born-again Christian. Maybe he wouldn't feel so special about himself.

I'm with you on this one. I have been studying this topic for some time after encountering the idea of Predestination on this forum. I studied both the scriptures, and the Earliest Chruch Fathers, and I believe there is very strong evidence for the free will of people. I put all of my thoughts up on the following web page as a resource. It is a bit of a dog's breakfast, with lots of ideas all over the place, but it gives the argument for free will.

Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry

 

[Ligurian]

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

Strong's Greek: 652. ἀπόστολος (apostolos) -- a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

Within the Matthew and John Gospels, the word apostle happens twice...

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is (ἀπόστολος) sent greater than he that sent him.
Matthew 10:1-2 And when He had called unto His Twelve Disciples, He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these

... the rest of the time, the 12 are called His Disciples. In Matthew and John alone, they're called Disciples over 100 times.

And a (μαθητὰς) Disciple = a learner, a pupil. John 8:31.
Strong's Greek: 3101. μαθητής (mathétés) -- a disciple

How many times must Scripture say it before it is true?

The word "apostle" appears nearly 80 times in the NT.

It matters not what others called them, but what they called themselves.

Called an Apostle, by Paul and Acts:
Acts 14:14, Romans 1:1, Romans 11:13, Romans 16:7, 1 Corinthians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 4:9, 1 Corinthians 9:1-2, 1 Corinthians 9:5, 1 Corinthians 12:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:7, 1 Corinthians 15:9, 2 Corinthians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 8:23, 2 Corinthians 11:5, 2 Corinthians 12:11-12, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Ephesians 2:20, Ephesians 3:5, Ephesians 4:11, Philippians 2:25, Colossians 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 1:1, 2 Timothy 1:11, Titus 1:1.


Called Disciples, by Iesus' and His Disciples:
Matthew 5:1, Matthew 8:21, Matthew 8:23, Matthew 8:25, Matthew 9:10-11, Matthew 9:14, Matthew 9:19, Matthew 9:37, Matthew 10:1, Matthew 10:24-25, Matthew 10:42, Matthew 11:1-2, Matthew 12:1-2, Matthew 12:49, Matthew 13:10, Matthew 13:36, Matthew 14:12, Matthew 14:15, Matthew 14:19, Matthew 14:22, Matthew 14:26, Matthew 15:2, Matthew 15:12, Matthew 15:23, Matthew 15:32-33, Matthew 15:36, Matthew 16:5, Matthew 16:13, Matthew 16:20-21, Matthew 16:24, Matthew 17:6, Matthew 17:10, Matthew 17:13, Matthew 17:19, Matthew 18:1, Matthew 19:10, Matthew 19:13, Matthew 19:23, Matthew 19:25, Matthew 20:17, Matthew 21:1, Matthew 21:6, Matthew 22:16, Matthew 21:20, Matthew 23:1, Matthew 24:1, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 26:1, Matthew 26:8, Matthew 26:17-18, Matthew 26:19, Matthew 26:26, Matthew 26:35-36, Matthew 26:40, Matthew 26:45, Matthew 26:56, Matthew 27:64, Matthew 28:7-9, Matthew 28:16, John 2:2, John 2:11-12, John 2:17, John 2:22, John 3:22, John 3:25, John 4:1-2, John 4:8, John 4:27, John 4:31, John 4:33, John 6:3, John 6:8, John 6:11-12, John 6:16, John 6:22, John 6:24, John 7:3, John 8:31, John 9:2, John 9:27-28, John 11:7-8, John 11:54, John 12:16, John 13:5, John 13:22-23, John 13:35, John 15:8, John 16:29, John 18:1-2, John 18:15-17, John 18:19, John 18:25, John 19:26-27, John 20:2-4, John 20:8, John 20:10, John 20:18-20, John 20:25-26, John 20:30.

 

[The Liturgist]

Calvinism is a theology I would have to force myself into believing in completely.

I agree at least in those forms of Calvinism that include Double Predestination or TULIP (which my friend @hedrick suggested Calvin himself did not stress to the extent commonly thought). The reason is that I have come to believe, under Patristic and Eastern Orthodox influence, very strongly in synergistic soteriology, because this reflects the hypostatic union of Christ Himself, our savior, and thus find myself rejecting all three monergistic positions (five-points Calvinism, Universalism, and Pelagianism) as untenable, but I greatly sympathize with the Calvinists and Universalists, because they attribute, with great humility, salvation to God, which I also do. In rejecting monergism I am not rejecting the idea of Soli Deo Gloria or even, from a divine perspective, determinism, which appears to be a logical consequence of omniscience, but rather am seeking to stay within a tradition that we see in St. John Cassian, and in the Cappadocians, and in St. John Chrysostom, and in St. Gregory Palamas, that we do participate in our salvation because God desires us to cooperate with His uncreated energies in the conduct of His plan to save us, which Orthodox theologians often refer to as the economy of Salvation.

Conversely, I find it difficult to have much sympathy for actual Pelagians, which I define as people who believe they can achieve salvation through their own effort with our Lord merely showing the way (as opposed to people accused of Pelagianism or who out of ignorance express interest in Pelagius in reaction to more extreme positions of St. Augustine). The actual Pelagian, and whether or not Pelagius himself really believed this, or if, like Nestorius, he did not grasp the implications of his doctrine (Nestorius was apparently unaware that the term Christotokos used to the exclusion of Theotokos precludes hypostatic union; I say apparently unaware because he claimed in his later years that Chalcedon reflected what he was trying to teach, which I find baffling since Chalcedon embraces hypostatic union and the title Theotokos, and Nestorius claimed his opposition to Theotokos, was, like that of Calvin, based on (what I regard to be an erroneous and misguided) opposition to a perceived excess of Marian veneration, yet Chalcedon upheld Ephesus in requiring the use of the title Theotokos (which Calvin conceded the accuracy of in his journals, even while publicly seeking to avoid use of the term for the same reason as Nestorius).

However, genuine Pelagianism, as I described it above, that is, a belief we can save our selves, which is very common in non-Christian heresies, for example, Buddhism, lacks the humility of both synergism, as understood using Patristic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox, Arminian and Wesleyan models, and what I would call Theocentric Monergism (Universalism, and ancient Monergism functionally similar to Calvinism, as proscribed by the Fifth Ecumenical Synod, as being related to Monophysitism), because in all of these non-Pelagian models, it is accepted that it is God who saves us, the only difference in opinion being the extent to which we participate in the process of our salvation and to what extent we have a choice.

Now, bearing in mind I am not a Calvinist, this article from a Calvinist apologetics site ironically entitled Monergism presents a positive image of Calvinism which I think explains why people, including myself at an earlier stage in my career, embrace it, and also shows how very close it is to both Universalism and Synergism (whether Arminian, or Wesleyan, or RC/EO/OO): Two Hesitations About TULIP. | Monergism

It is also because of this proximity I am able to warmly fellowship with Calvinists and have such a great admiration for Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, who was magnificent as a moral theologian, the greatest televangelist since Archbishop Fulton Sheen, and as the pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. I attended a sermon of his in person in 2006, when the liberalism in the UCC and other mainline denominations was really starting to offend me, which was thrilling, in which he was excited by the prospects of a future repeal of Roe v. Wade due to the pro-life direction the court was taking at the time, something which I rejoice has now finally come to fruition.

 

[hedrick]

Actually, the obvious analogy of the incarnation would be compatibilism. Every act is both a free human choice and God’s.