How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

[Mountainmanbob]

I do not judge other people actions as sinful as I am not qualified to see sin in others.
I am only qualified to identify and judge my own sins against God.
This is why there is no mandate to DO anything with prisoners.
We all know that all we can do is hold them until judgment day.
We don't "punish" them at all.

Well when I see people deliberately hurt other people I know that's a sin to be recognized. Okay I'm not the judge but I recognize sin and it's best that we stay away from it or them.
M-Bob

 

[SkyWriting]

Well when I see people deliberately hurt other people I know that's a sin to be recognized. Okay I'm not the judge but I recognize sin and it's best that we stay away from it or them.
M-Bob

It's not. People hurt other people becasue they are hurting so badly themselves. It could be a direction in thought they went on their own, or it could be abuse they have suffered from others. I am the same age as Jeffery Dahmer and could have been in High School with him here, so I've been through the subject of judging evil pretty thoroughly, for myself. I might have interacted with one of the most evil kids in human history. But I can't judge a peer of mine who grew up in the same neighborhood as myself. It really brings home the idea of judging. And I've had other recent events to consider like a murder/suicide in my family. One can't avoid evil. When you walk away, it is already there as well.

 

[usexpat97]

In all fairness, the government law does say we are required to intervene if we see a person being harmed. If you witness a mugging and all you do is film it, with no contact to authorities, you will probably be charged.

 

[SkyWriting]

That is not what the Bible says. That is what you are trying to impose on what the Bible actually says. We are to submit to local authorities in all areas that are right and reasonable for us to do so, but we are not obey if the government tells us to abuse our children, or worship idols, or murder. You cannot make the case that those things are permissible and no longer sinful if the government orders them to be done.

You failed again to provide any scriptural support. There is none.

I'm not going by your logic. I'm going by what scripture actually says.

Proverbs 20:2
The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: who so provoketh him to anger sinneth against his own soul

Proverbs 20:8
Proverbs 20:26

 

[SkyWriting]

In all fairness, the government law does say we are required to intervene if we see a person being harmed. If you witness a mugging and all you do is film it, with no contact to authorities, you will probably be charged.

Absolutely. Local human law is how God works in the world.
Scriptural law is obsolete.
That's why we don't stone people to death.
God works His will though local government.
Our Father is author of everything.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is not your place to alter anyone's post...That is dishonest and totally unethical and if you do it to me, I will report you to the moderators.

I generally remove the spacing from all quotes or quote just part of what anyone says. There are no ethical problems or forum rules restricting that.

The REASON there are no such restrictions is that any quote includes a link back to the original post. Unless I remove that as well. That is also an option.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is not your place to alter anyone's post.

Only for brinny, becasue I said I would not.

i appreciate that, Sky.

How does God feel about the shedding of innocent blood?

Very much opposed. Until very recently this has been ignored and innocent prisoners have been put to death. God continues to work His will though local government.

 

[Justified112]

..

 

[Justified112]

I generally remove the spacing from all quotes or quote just part of what anyone says. There are no ethical problems or forum rules restricting that.

The REASON there are no such restrictions is that any quote includes a link back to the original post. Unless I remove that as well. That is also an option.

Just as long as you do not change the wording or substance of what I say. That is what I am saying. You don't have to respond to everything in my posts, but what you do quote better not be doctored to change the meaning of what I said. That's all I am talking about.

 

[Justified112]

You failed again to provide any scriptural support. There is none.

I'm not going by your logic. I'm going by what scripture actually says.

Proverbs 20:2
The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: who so provoketh him to anger sinneth against his own soul

Proverbs 20:8
Proverbs 20:26

You are not using Scripture either. You are just quoting verses that say nothing about God saying we are to obey local authorities above His commands. Nothing in the Bible says that man's authority has overridden God's authority.

Again, you are making statements that are not actually in the Bible and then quoting Scriptures out of context and that do not say what you're saying.

You are lying about what the Bible says. Your statements about the Bible are dishonest to the core. It is unchristian, what you're doing.

 

[Kaon]

Daniel knew that an all meat diet is not healthy long before food scientists of today did. So he asked the king for permission to go vegetarian. He asked, becasue he knew civil disobedience is wrong in all cases.

Here is scripture without your additions:

Romans 13:1-14
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

1 Peter 2:13-20

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to the king as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors as those sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorance of foolish men.

16 Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17 Treat everyone with high regard: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

18 Servants, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but even to those who are unreasonable. 19For if anyone endures the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God, this is to be commended. 20 How is it to your credit if you are beaten for doing wrong and you endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

I am not going to argue with you concerning this topic anymore. Cheers.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am not going to argue with you concerning this topic anymore. Cheers.

Thanks. I'm going to stick with the thread title.

Concerning Food Sacrificed to Idols
1 Cor 8
1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
3 But whoever loves God is known by God.
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols?
11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are not using Scripture either. You are just quoting verses that say nothing about God saying we are to obey local authorities above His commands. Nothing in the Bible says that man's authority has overridden God's authority.Again, you are making statements that are not actually in the Bible and then quoting Scriptures out of context and that do not say what you're saying.You are lying about what the Bible says. Your statements about the Bible are dishonest to the core. It is unchristian, what you're doing.

I am providing scripture. It's up to God's Holy Spirit, The Helper, to keep God's laws in their heart as they read the passages and the context. I am not the Helper. I'll work at adding more context, becasue I find even better support when I do. So thanks for suggesting it!


◄ Titus 3 ►

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[SkyWriting]

Just as long as you do not change the wording or substance of what I say. That is what I am saying. You don't have to respond to everything in my posts, but what you do quote better not be doctored to change the meaning of what I said. That's all I am talking about.

So your not talking about me actually doing harm against you in the real world. That's a great point.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are not using Scripture either. You are just quoting verses that say nothing about God saying we are to obey local authorities above His commands. Nothing in the Bible says that man's authority has overridden God's authority.

What Jesus said was that local law and it's operation is the Father's will and authority on earth. Which is why Jesus ended up crucified.

If we follow your reasoning, Jesus would never have been crucified.
That would be your bad. Fortunately for us, Jesus did not allow
anyone to interfere with the operation of local government.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

1 Peter 2:13-20

And what does verse 16 tell you?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

And what does verse 16 tell you?

Nice. But I am on the topic. Scripture says to obey local government over personal views.

Except now you are shifting the argument. Nobody is saying we are to favor personal views over government. We are saying that we should favor the word of God over government. Now keep reading acts 5 and report what you find.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I know this post isn't directed at me but about seeking advice from a pastor or elder in a church, I do think it could be useful and provide insights, but I do believe that not all of all pastors' and elders' views are necessarily always correct even if they have the best of intentions, I do believe we should submit to all authority that does not command you to sin and I am not saying I think a true Christian pastor or elder would not be careful to not give unbiblical advice, what I am saying is I believe only God's word (the Bible) is the final authority and I believe whatever a pastor says if it is true it must not contradict the Bible, what are your views on this?

About the topic of abortion, I don't really know the Bible well but based on Bible verses and based on what my conscience seems to tell me I do believe abortion to be wrong. Also, since finding out that in Acts 5:29 Peter said "we must obey God rather than men" and also knowing that in the Old Testament Daniel refused to bow to idols, based on that verse in the context of the whole Bible I am persuaded that it would be right to disobey a law if that law asks me to sin against God, such as if the law requires me to commit idolatry or fornication (sex outside marriage).

Also, there may be people reading this thread who may take anyone says as truth, there may be people reading this thread who have limited intellectual or mental capacity or difficulties in comprehnsion and understanding, there may be people reading this thread who want to know more about the Lord Jesus Christ or who are recent converts to Christianity; and though I hope not there may be people reading this thread who want to who want to show Christianity in a negative light; for these reasons although I acknowledge that I don't know very much at all and that many people by God's grace and provision know the God's word (the Bible) much better than me I am concerned that people would make claims that seem unbiblical because of the possible impact it could have although I believe God is able to prevent such an impact if He wills

I agree. I just figured that if Skywriting didn't want to listen to the Bible or the hundreds of Christian's who are telling him he is wrong, perhaps maybe he would listen to a pastor. I think any pastor who respects the word of God would tell him that God word is final.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Nice. But I am on the topic.

I hate to break the news to you, but the premise of the OP was that a Christian cannot support abortion without disregarding the word of God. The minute you said that local laws take priority over the word of God, you lost all credibility to argue your case. You proved my case. Thus, abortion is not worth discussing with you because you essentially demonstrated here on this thread that I am right.

 

[usexpat97]

I hate to break the news to you, but the premise of the OP was that a Christian cannot support abortion without disregarding the word of God. The minute you said that local laws take priority over the word of God, you lost all credibility to argue your case. You proved my case. Thus, abortion is not worth discussing with you because you essentially demonstrated here on this thread that I am right.

That sword cuts both ways, though. Not supporting abortion from a biblical standpoint does not conflate with the "pro-life" position, which is that local laws need to disallow it.